361 replies to this topic

[Jake]

El RAPEDeo.

[Broham]

When I came to Canada 13 years ago I didn't know a damn word of English but my parents had learned enough to get by.
I was in and out of ESL within 3 months.
I don't agree with the title of this topic, but I do think that if you're not willing to learn the country's official language you shouldn't emigrate there.

[Kyouma]

This thread should be left to die.
Please no one revive this again.

[raK]

Holy dead threads, batman! the thread is coming back to life!

[pixi]

I love how if a person from a different country comes to the U.S. they can take their drivers test in their own language. Shit, if I were to go to china & say " aw man no english test?" they'd just be like, too bad! its americas fault XD we're too nice and lenient.

[Ellipses]

Only cause this thread got bumped back up, I'll give my opinion

Someone said people with thriving economics use english to communicate? I think China doesn't use english as a mainstream language and they're doing just fine. They have to constantly fight inflation because of their high GDP% growth rate. They have to constantly manipulate their currency to be weaker so other countries continue to trade with them. I'm not saying China is a great country and all. I'm just saying that economically (GDP growth rate wise - which is pretty much the main tool in determining how the economy is doing) China is doing great. They still have many social issues to deal with ,but thats not the point. Also, the same person said that chinese will never be the mainstream language in the U.S. That may be true. However, many white families are sending their kids off to chinese school so they can greatly improve their kids human capital in the future. The obvious reason is because Chinas economy is booming and the forecast is that the future of global economics will involve China greatly. So learning chinese would be a great tool and be a important tool for the future.

I won't say anything about people who say "oh if you don't know english gtfo" because thats just obviously ignorant. Economically speaking, without immigrants, our economy would be weakened very much. Our standard of living would be decreased greatly.

Edited by Dogger, 01 September 2011 - 11:37 PM.

[Kyouma]

[Frizzle]

Yup just ignore the de facto national language that's been used for centuries to be condescending. That's the ticket.

[Vendel]

While this seems to be a troll thread I'll reply anyways.

Well first off, I'm actually insulted by the question you posed to us. This has to be one of the more ill thought out questions I've encountered.

Do you guys think that learning fundamental English for Immigrants / fluent English for their children is a mandatory requirement for green card eligibility to the United States?

Do you honestly expect a family that just immigrated to be able to speak fluent English? And why would it even matter if the baby boomer generation does not know English? Their children are being educated in English schools, and they live in a predominantly English speaking country. When the baby boomer generation dies out, their children will be fluent in English, as will the generation of children after that.

The reason I feel that this question is idiotic is because the topic creator apparently believes that assimilation into a different society, a different culture, happens neigh overnight. Well I hate to break it to you, but this isn't the case.

Edited by Delcer, 09 September 2011 - 08:01 AM.

[Frizzle]

You complain about trolling and then go into a semi-rant insulting the OP. Well played.

Use a bit of common sense, their obvious intention was that an immigrant should research, learn and adapt to a culture before moving permanently.

A degree style language of English isn't necessary but basic understanding of the language, laws and cultures is a good start.

[Vendel]

You complain about trolling and then go into a semi-rant insulting the OP. Well played.

Use a bit of common sense, their obvious intention was that an immigrant should research, learn and adapt to a culture before moving permanently.

A degree style language of English isn't necessary but basic understanding of the language, laws and cultures is a good start.

Yeah I got kinda annoyed yesterday evening, I admit that I was harsher than I should have been(going to edit that into something nicer), however I won't edit my point. . My last post mentioned how the older generation does not have to bother with any of these things since in time they will die out leaving their children who are.

Edited by Delcer, 09 September 2011 - 08:00 AM.

[Dunvegan]

Meh, I doubt my post will mean much of anything to the fine folks with far more posts than me, but I figured I'd throw my two cents in anyway.

I've worked in retail and have dealt with customers (mostly Russian, Greeks, and Arabs from Canada) that have utterly refused to speak English and then get frustrated when I refuse to speak a language that I don't know. They don't quite understand their total logical error and so their hypocrisy is what gets me angry, more than anything. So I do understand where some of the negative sentiments are coming from.

While I believe that any immigrant should certainly have the right to have signs in their own language (or other things of that nature) put up in cities that are mostly of that same ethnic group, I also believe that they should be expected to at least learn basic English. It doesn't make sense for them not to - if they ever have an issue and they, say, call the police then the police certainly won't be able to understand them unless someone is on their squad who shares that language. It's the same in hospitals, doctor's clinics, government offices, etc. If there's a barrier to communication then, really, the immigrant is on the losing end, as they are unable to receive the attention they need and deserve as humans.

There are always ways to get around this, such as ensuring every place hires a bilingual individual who can speak both English and the other language or who can create paperwork in a different language, transcirbe the immigrant's answers, etc...but for some places this is quite difficult or the number of people qualified would be quite small. Where I used to live, we had a very healthy mixture of Arabs, Mhongs, and Mexicans, so hiring people to be translators when Michigan is already at the losing end of unemployment rates is extremely improbable.

They shouldn't be expected to learn English immediately, but then again it should be a requirment to gain full citizenship status, not their green card. The schools where I currently live are full of first/second generation Mexican children who still know absolutely no English because their household will not learn it and, at the end, that harms the child's future more than anything.

EDIT: Apparently, I was dumb. The requirement to become a full citizen is: Have the ability to read, write, speak, and understand simple words and phrases in English. So...knowing this, I really wonder about all those who don't.

Edited by Dunvegan, 09 September 2011 - 04:05 PM.

[vilhelmina]

As someone who used to work quite often with migrants, moved around the globe (more than I wanted to), and grew up with quite a few friends who were migrants, here are my observations:


a) There are quite a few international students, and a good portion of them relies on their parents working for a portion (or the entirety) of their living expenses (or tuition). Which don't tend to be cheap, especially at university-level.

b) The "parents" mentioned in point a) tends to lack language skills, since they spend majority of their time working so their kids can speak fluent English. I've noticed that quite a few Asian parents have the attitude of "everything I do is for my kid".

c) Quite a few elderly Asians I've seen - for example, the ones who migrated with the rest of the family because nobody else can take care of them - refuse to sit at home and do nothing, and will go off to work.

d) There isn't just two states of English proficiency of "Not speak English" or "I'm pretty damn good". Driving, for example, is a necessity in the U.S., something you tend to need ASAP, preferably before your English skills and levels match a native speaker's level. You only need to know the concept.

e) The xenophobic attitudes of people when they see migrants also doesn't particularly help in encouraging them to improve - why speak a language when all you will use it for is to listen to people talk shit about you anyway?

f) People form communities all the time of their own ethnicities. I've taught English in Korea for past 2 years (and did a bit of travelling around in East Asian regions), and we Americans tend to be just as bad in East Asian countries, it's just that most Americans don't see those.

g) Migrants =/= citizens. Starting from illegal immigrants to permanent residents and citizens, there are different "grades" of a migrant. An immigrating "citizen" tends to have passed requirements that most of the population can't pass themselves anyway (there is a difference between "qualify to be one" and "actually get to be one"). An "immigrant" can be anything, depending on their business.


Of course, for some people, there is simply no excuse. Learning the culture or the language of a country you're going into tends to be a common sense and a courtesy, but it goes both ways. Yes, how tolerant are we, as a nation, that we wish to make not knowing a language illegal, regardless of the circumstances. Perhaps we should then make it illegal to not speak this particular language.

The blame should not be on the migrants, but those who let people who shouldn't have come in, come in. Those who let people who shouldn't have welfare, have welfare.

[MarvelGirl]

Hmmmmmm I am guessing your entire lineage is American?

You have no ancestors who have migrated to this young country in the past 250 years?

What the hell do you do for a living that leaves you with so little income that you have to live in a "shitty" neighborhood. Because I am thinking if your are so much more educated that the those that sound as if they are working harder than you but speaking another language, you would be able to afford rent in a better part of the neighborhood, or you would be able to submit a nice resume to a leading company who will pay all your expenses to move away from the "shit" side.

It sounds like you live in a big city and if your living in that section of town, the way you describe that side of town tells me more than likely you too are receiving foodstamps .

Oh by the way. My landlord speaks very broken English, he is an older man immigrated from Asia. He has made a fortune by working hard at home depot, using his earnings to buy homes to rent to those coming out of foreclosure, he takes no deposits, he helps them get back on their feet and just ask they pay him later when they can. Some still have not been able to pay him but he works it out in trade. You can paint your rental for one months rent, or you can use a Saturday to go mow lawns for challenged folks and in return you get a months rent. He is the nicest, kindest most considerate man I have ever met. He lives with very little luxury and gives all his money and time to us...

I have to stop writing, I am getting on a rant. Lady all I can say is there is no way your ancestors came from America. None of ours did you ignorant blind fool.

Oh by the way, I just spent a gazillion years in Alaska - guess what... I still am as southern as my sweet tea. Accents do not go away very easily dork.

[Hydrange]

I guess that with "America" you meant "United States"? Or do you really want to move people away from a whole continent where only in a few countries English is the official language just because they don't speak English? ö

[Dunvegan]

I guess that with "America" you meant "United States"? Or do you really want to move people away from a whole continent where only in a few countries English is the official language just because they don't speak English? ö

I don't know whether you live in the U.S. or not but, correct or no, we use "America" interchangeably with the "United States", which is why we're considered "Americans" and not "United Statesians". As I've said, it's not correct geographically speaking, but it's become a part of our vernacular.

[Hydrange]

I don't know whether you live in the U.S. or not but, correct or no, we use "America" interchangeably with the "United States", which is why we're considered "Americans" and not "United Statesians". As I've said, it's not correct geographically speaking, but it's become a part of our vernacular.

I see, well I didn't know that. I am European and I live in Europe, and I would feel offended if French people considered themselves as "Europeans", just as an example.

And about the topic of this thread, I think that when you move to another country, you have to learn their language and culture, you can't just immigrate and feel offended for that country's lifestyles or religion. I myself moved abroad for a couple of years and I feel like I am representing people in my country, so I have to be extra careful of what I do (example, not throwing trash in the street). If that would be wrong in my country, I feel like if I do it in a country that is not mine, it would be double shameful. Like if you go to someone's house as guest and open their fridge or put your feet on their table.

[Georgina]

I see, well I didn't know that. I am European and I live in Europe, and I would feel offended if French people considered themselves as "Europeans", just as an example.

And about the topic of this thread, I think that when you move to another country, you have to learn their language and culture, you can't just immigrate and feel offended for that country's lifestyles or religion. I myself moved abroad for a couple of years and I feel like I am representing people in my country, so I have to be extra careful of what I do (example, not throwing trash in the street). If that would be wrong in my country, I feel like if I do it in a country that is not mine, it would be double shameful. Like if you go to someone's house as guest and open their fridge or put your feet on their table.

I thought anyone who lived in Europe was European? Including the French unfortunately.

[aneoguy]

Glad i speak English then.. O wait i was born in England

[Harlow]

You want me stick pole up you butt?

[Thepeopleschampion]

how would u like it if u were to be kicked outta country for not speaking their launguage great...its a free country u know

[torsion]

Not sure if trolling or just stupid...

[MiladyM]

I see, well I didn't know that. I am European and I live in Europe, and I would feel offended if French people considered themselves as "Europeans", just as an example.

Uh wait, what? The French are actually Europeans too, since they live in Europe also

Edited by Milady, 15 October 2011 - 06:28 AM.

[lonewolf]

This is a pretty racist topic...and im glad to see everyone disagreeing with it. but yeah, of course they shouldnt be kicked out. how would you feel if you wanted to live somewhere but couldnt because of language barriers and racism towards you?

[gwalle]

I saw one word in this thread that really… irritated me; ‘assimilation’.
Assimilation is perhaps the most arrogant an egotistical political attempt at forcing immigrating ethnic groups to outright change, not help adapt, to the immigrated region. USA and its peoples have had a long history of racial prejudices, this topic only reaffirming that many of its citizens (citizens by birth and who have never had to drop their ‘culture’) still exists.
Here’s a word the ignorant should develop an understanding of; multiculturalism. This is a word of universal inclusion and acceptance, regardless of ethnicity or culture. It does not demand assimilation of the region’s inhabitants as it welcomes and allows for ‘cultural ghettos’ to exist without persecution.
Yours is a country that prides itself on having this ‘American Dream’, which is nothing more than power hungry propaganda to lull foreign populations into dismissing their heritage only to adopt grotesque redneck blindness.


Jcrgirl: “Math is universal though”
The modern day European/Western numerical system derived from Hindu-Arabic origins. Foreign origins assimilated into European/Western culture. Virtually everything English is and has, has been derived from foreign backgrounds.

“The immigrants here seriously look down on the natives who don't know their language and I have no doubt in my mind they talk trash about us too.”

Natives? Are you an Indian-American? What is the ethnic background of your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc until the 17^th century? I HIGHLY doubt you are a native – nor are 99.1% of the USA population (CIA Factbook, 2007).
Furthermore, how can you condemn that “they talk trash” about you when you do did it yourself? Your claims are mere speculation (considering you cannot understand them, you wouldn’t know, would you?), but your trash talk is blatant evidence here.

“There is nothing wrong with socializing with each other in your own language, but when your job is to communicate with others, you can't JUST know Spanish/Chinese/Arabic whatever.”

It makes me wonder if you have ever left your little neighbourhood… because it seems like you would not be a person to indulge in the wonders of travel with your racially obnoxious attitude.
However, if by chance you have let me ask you this; did you ever attempt to learn the national languages of the country you visited? Simple phrases? Hello/Goodbye? Thank you?


Frank274: “If you're in America, you should learn English. If you're in France, learn French. If you are in China, learn some damn Chinese!”

Ultimately I do agree to an extent; language is a hard barrier to overcome, but it certainly isn’t going to make all other problems disappear. Learning the language that holds the majority usage in a given country you live in OR visit I feel will be necessary unless multiculturalism at its trust form can be established – which generally speaking is more than unlikely to happen. That is not to say I agree this is a just reason for imposing it so.

Forcing one language onto a group of people will eventually lead to what has happened in Australia over the last 200 years; Indigenous Australians had around 300 different spoken dialects, now roughly 30 still exist with less than 10 of those still spoken on a ‘day-to-day’ basis. These languages are nearing extinction due to government policies that are forcing English to be taught in Aboriginal community schools instead of encouraging the use of their own.

Language is a fundamental importance for retaining cultural awareness of oneself. Sure it may be “annoying” and make you “rage”, but who made you all-powerful and bestowed you with the right to govern the cultural existence of another person?

Language prominence rise and fall; Latin and Germanic tongues rose to global prominence in 500+ AD, with modern-day English roughly the product of 50% of each of these. For centuries French was considered the worlds ‘second language’ or ‘trade language’, not English. It was only during the 17^th-19^th centuries when Britain colonised vast territories, and after WWI&II that English circulated the world.

English has been a slowly adapting language and given current world standings (with both UK and USA on an economic downward spiral), China may be the next ‘superpower’… better to befriend them and learn their language than impose your own.

For the record, I am a 5th generation Australian on my mothers side (ie. pretty much since English settlement) and English on my father's side. I'm an Anglo, sole English speaking young adult male - vilified as the most prejudice sociological-standing.
If I can identify the ignorance blathered in your first post jcrgirl, why can't you?