15 replies to this topic

[frostz]

It is of course well known that mainstream Christianity emphasizes Monotheism but i contend that the religion itself is actually polytheistic.

For one, the trinity thing is never actually stated to exist in the scripture.. except they have to say that the father, son and holy spirit are one and the same to perpetuate the idea of monotheism. When we look at the historical background of judaism and christianity, it is clear that they had polytheistic roots.

Examples,
Whenever the Bible refers to God directly as God, the name translates to El Elyon, which was the head of an ancient Caananite religion. El Elyon appears in the bible up till Exodus before all references to the god of the Israelites was changed to "the Lord".

The Most High is also known as God in english translations, or El Elyon which literally translates to God Most High.

I guarantee that you will NOT find the Christian god referred to as "God" when people are talking about him in name in any part of the bible past exodus except for maybe one or two anomalies unless they are talking about the divine council or heavenly politics. He will be called the Lord. Direct reference to El Elyon, God does however appear a couple more times in later chapters such as Psalm 82.

El Elyon (God) being the creator

Jehovan (Lord) being the god of the Hebrews who brought them out of Egypt

What i am trying to say here, is that the names Lord and God refer to two different beings. But for now onto the topic of polytheism


¹ God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:

² “How long will you^{a]" class="footnote">[a]} defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?^{b]" class="footnote">[b]
3} Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
⁴ Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

⁵ “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

⁶ “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
⁷ But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”

⁸ Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.



Also i realize that wikipedia is not exactly a good source but http://en.wikipedia....aanite_religion and scroll down to parallels with the Hebrew Bible.

If you are still skeptic then find an online copy of the Hebrew bible and run the passages containing God and Lord into a hebrew to english translator. you will find that where you would find God in an english version the Hebrew text would have El Elyon and Jehovah for where you would find Lord.

Lord translates into Jehovah which is the God that we commonly refer to.

I mean yea i realize that there are holes in my argument because im essentially saying the creator god was different from the god that brought the Jews out of Israel especially since "the Lord" said that he was the god of abraham, isaac, an jacob.

But under the assumption of a polytheistic religion it wouldn't be completely farfetched to say that it is certainly possible for a different god to usurp the position of a previously established one. Of course i am making this statement up and there is no proof for it, but what i am saying is that there ARE passages in the bible that are clearly polytheistic.

But in order to support this statement anyway i give you this
⁸ When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel.
⁹ For the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.

Now here it translates the text to "the number of the sons of Israel" but there are others that translate it to "sons of God". Of course given verse 9 it makes more sense for it to be sons of God. Essentially it would say that When El Elyon divided the nations amongst his divine sons, Jehovah (the Lord) inherited Israel.

If it said that he divided all mankind amongst the sons of Israel (i think this is jacob? or something) and then said that the Lord inherits Israel (another name for Jacob you can find this in the scripture). it doesnt make sense.It would basically be saying that the Most High divided mankind giving portions to the sons of Israel and the Lord received a portion of that insinuating that the Lord was a son of jacob.

Whereas if it said that he divided all mankind amongst the sons of god, and the Lords portion was Israel, the statement would suddenly make sense.

____________

Now Ive been looking this topic up for a while now and ive seen all sorts of arguments against the existence of the Divine council or El Elyon stating that they are just another name for Yaweh, Jehovah, etc. But i think that the verses that i have provided above lend me some credibility when i say that this argument is just another coverup for what is obviously a polytheistic religion.

Even should I be wrong about the whole Lord and God thing, the Christian/Hebrew god is one god amongst a pantheon of gods all of which should be as "real" to the person who would believe the Christian god to be real, and even though they may be irrelevant to the faith we should not say that they do not exist.

Edited by frostz, 15 May 2011 - 06:20 PM.

[Boggart]

I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments" Deuteronomy 5:6-10

10 commandments, yo. #2 to be exact.

yes, weakest argument to start off I might have more later, but lunch calls me

[frostz]

Boggart, on 15 May 2011 - 07:30 AM, said:

I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments" Deuteronomy 5:6-10

10 commandments, yo. #2 to be exact.

yes, weakest argument to start off I might have more later, but lunch calls me

Again when i say God and Lord, i mean in direct reference to.

when he says i am the Lord your God

He is saying I am Jehovah your god.

example
In exodus chapter 4 verse 3
³And the Lord said: Cast it down upon the ground. He cast it down, and it was turned into a serpent: so that Moses fled from it.

But in all chapters up till that point


Genesis 1
¹In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. ²And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.

³And God said: Be light made. And light was made.




You can go ahead and read through any chapter and you will find what i say to be so.

Edited by frostz, 15 May 2011 - 07:38 AM.

[Sweeney]

Protip: The Bible is a messy merging of countless ancient and pagan traditions.

Analysing it is like reading entrails.

[frostz]

Sweeney, on 15 May 2011 - 12:21 PM, said:

Protip: The Bible is a messy merging of countless ancient and pagan traditions.

Analysing it is like reading entrails.

well yea thats true, but nevertheless it still deserves to be analyzed, if only so that people don't blindly follow what the minister is saying.

[Madcowz]

The Bible is a man made book used to perpetuate the control given to some people by the biggest scam of all time, Organized religion. There's been thousands of these organized religions throughout history and every follower of every one of them thinks they are correct, when really they would believe in a totally different "god" if they were born in a different region of the world to different parents that told them there fairy tales instead.

[Nunc]

It's not Christianity that is the biggest scam of all time, but Islam and Judaism.

[Madcowz]

Nunc, on 17 May 2011 - 04:34 PM, said:

It's not Christianity that is the biggest scam of all time, but Islam and Judaism.

all scams used to control those with a pre-disposition to be followers, sheep.

[frostz]

Nunc, on 17 May 2011 - 04:34 PM, said:

It's not Christianity that is the biggest scam of all time, but Islam and Judaism.

Judaism is the progenitor of Christianity though,
besides that does anyone have an opinion on my analysis

[Frizzle]

Madcowz, on 17 May 2011 - 04:41 PM, said:

all scams used to control those with a pre-disposition to be followers, sheep.

Hi, welcome to codex! Where the admin and creator of the site you are using is highly religious!

But no, seriously. You're an idiot.

[Melchoire]

Nunc, on 17 May 2011 - 04:34 PM, said:

It's not Christianity that is the biggest scam of all time, but Islam and Judaism.

Favoring one over the others is like favoring a turd sandwich to a giant douche.

[Madcowz]

Frizzle you are an absolute tard bud , notice i didn't tell anyone not to believe anything . People can believe whatever they want but I also can have an opInion on it. Hence the debate part of the forum. Silly post just to try and attack someone? Seriously, you're the idiot.

Edited by Madcowz, 17 May 2011 - 06:52 PM.

[zandra]

i believe that even Judaism and Muslim have correct values in them. it is just that people twist all the values taught into something else.

[frostz]

Lets try and keep this discussion on topic please, its a thread to see if my analysis of the two gods that appear in the bible (one the creator, and the other who brings the jews out of egypt) is in fact correct in the terms of support from passages from the scriptures.

Indeed we can argue about which religion is the biggest scam, but i am kinda interested in what people with some knowledge of the bible think about what i wrote.

[Frizzle]

Madcowz, on 17 May 2011 - 06:48 PM, said:

Frizzle you are an absolute tard bud , notice i didn't tell anyone not to believe anything . People can believe whatever they want but I also can have an opInion on it. Hence the debate part of the forum. Silly post just to try and attack someone? Seriously, you're the idiot.

Don't act like your condescending and patronising post was a form of debate.

[vurty]

one of the most interesting things i've ever read