71 replies to this topic

[Volition]

Tetiel, on 11 June 2011 - 07:01 PM, said:

And I therefore have the right to voice my disgust with your calling religious people the scum of the earth.

And I acknowledge your disgust

[buttcheeks]

can't we all just get drunk and have a merry time?

[batryn]

As an atheist, I really don't care what happens with other religions, unless they are something along the lines of 9/11

[Frizzle]

Volition, on 11 June 2011 - 03:39 PM, said:

Well I have better justification for my beliefs (which i've probably stated in some other thread regarding religion) and as long as I'm on the secular end of the spectrum I'll be fine

You do know the horseshoe theory right? The more extreme the closer you become to the opposite end of the spectrum due to similarities.

Basically, you are what you hate. Congratulations.

[Ladida]

To get back to the point, it annoys me when people say I should thank God when, for example, I do well in an exam. Or when a doctor using modern medicine to cure someone. Or whenever anything achieved by humans is attributed to the grace of God, with all credit being taken away from that person for his/her hard work and sleepless nights.

I'm sure many people are still praying every day, huddled in their houses, for God to solve world issues. I'm also sure that congregating a bunch of people in one spot to pray will not get God's attention any more than a single person praying would. It's almost as if it's thought that if lots and lots of people pray at once, there's no way God can turn a deaf ear, he will be flooded with prayers and just given in and say "Stop already! I'll do it!". I know many people who are happy to not do anything and go to church every Sunday, saying God will look after them. I don't think we have welfare in Guyana, so I'm not worried about having my tax money being used up on welfare for them. It doesn't bother me that they're praying since paying money to get them food and shelter will never be a responsibility that falls on my doorstep.

I do think the amount of time and money spent on organizing and funding such a gathering could be put to much better use. However, most or all religious groups place more value in offerings to God, be it in spending a ton of money to pray or buying expensive statues to pray to or building insanely awesome looking buildings to pray in. Helping people to show God what a good human being you are falls pretty low on that list. There isn't a single church or temple in my area that helps anyone or does any sort of charity work. Only the mosques have that giving to charity thing going, I can't remember what it's called at the moment. The Baha'is I know seem nice enough, but they too tend to reserve their help for the people who are willing to listen to their teachings.

I don't agree with others turning into extremists themselves and attacking other religious groups, no matter how delusional they think they are. As long as they're not hurting anyone, there's no reason to get involved. There're some topics you don't get into, since there is no way you will ever reach an agreement, and certainly it's highly unlikely that it will not result in an extremely heated screaming match.

The entire praying concept is just something that will make people feel as though they've accomplished something, when really all they've done is made themselves feel good for "helping the world". That's a dangerous mentality, which will probably breed an entire set of armchair activists (if they aren't already). Of course they will take credit when people who actually do do something manage to help begin a change in the situation, so the cycle continues. "My prayers worked! I'm going to pray some more!". I'm sure people believe that praying brought Laura Ling and Euna Lee back from North Korea, but what can you do? You can't change the way people think when it comes to religion. Only they can change their minds about something, and trying to force them to will achieve nothing but anger and hatred.

[Volition]

Frizzle, on 14 June 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

You do know the horseshoe theory right? The more extreme the closer you become to the opposite end of the spectrum due to similarities.

Basically, you are what you hate. Congratulations.

Isn't horseshoe theory for political spectrum? Although I do agree that my secular fanaticism brings me closer to religious fanaticism, but again, I'm fine as long as its secular. Now I'm gonna try and get this thread back on topic, the 'power of prayer' might as well be inaction, the only person (if I remember correctly) that managed to solve problems by pretty much doing nothing was Reagan with his Reaganomics.

[iChelsea]

It's been tested and the results are not promising.

[Sweeney]

It's been tested plenty of times.
I recall a particular study where the group that were being prayed for, but didn't know it, endured a lower rate of recovery than those that weren't, as well as those that were and knew it.
Statistically insignificant, but still an amusing result.

[iChelsea]

Sweeney, on 15 June 2011 - 02:32 PM, said:

It's been tested plenty of times.
I recall a particular study where the group that were being prayed for, but didn't know it, endured a lower rate of recovery than those that weren't, as well as those that were and knew it.
Statistically insignificant, but still an amusing result.

In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

[Sweeney]

iChelsea, on 15 June 2011 - 03:17 PM, said:

In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

Thank you for basically reposting exactly what I said.

[Tetiel]

Sweeney, on 15 June 2011 - 02:32 PM, said:

It's been tested plenty of times.
I recall a particular study where the group that were being prayed for, but didn't know it, endured a lower rate of recovery than those that weren't, as well as those that were and knew it.
Statistically insignificant, but still an amusing result.

I wouldn't say it's statistically insignificant. I would say it says a lot about human psychology. I wish it had said more about what their patients had thought about through their recovery or lack there of (half the links to studies on that site are broken). Because they knew they were being prayed for, would they feel they could give up fighting physically? Or would it be the very thought that it would be okay if they died because they assumed they would be going to a better place afterwards. Hmm... At the same time praying personally has given positive results in some studies, the same as laughter and general optimism (the Patch Adams effect). I'm not sure what to make of that contradiction.

The psychology of death has always fascinated me. It's too bad that they don't let people do all the good experiments anymore. They ruin it with their consent forms. /sigh

[Sweeney]

Tetiel, on 17 June 2011 - 11:11 PM, said:

I wouldn't say it's statistically insignificant.

I mean, the observed effect was mathematically insignificant. Not as an interesting interpretation, but as a rigorously defined fact of the study.

Quote

I would say it says a lot about human psychology. I wish it had said more about what their patients had thought about through their recovery or lack there of (half the links to studies on that site are broken). Because they knew they were being prayed for, would they feel they could give up fighting physically? Or would it be the very thought that it would be okay if they died because they assumed they would be going to a better place afterwards. Hmm... At the same time praying personally has given positive results in some studies, the same as laughter and general optimism (the Patch Adams effect). I'm not sure what to make of that contradiction.

The psychology of death has always fascinated me. It's too bad that they don't let people do all the good experiments anymore. They ruin it with their consent forms. /sigh

Ethics committees will be the death of us all.

[Tetiel]

Sweeney, on 18 June 2011 - 02:48 AM, said:

I mean, the observed effect was mathematically insignificant. Not as an interesting interpretation, but as a rigorously defined fact of the study.


Ethics committees will be the death of us all.

Ah, of course. Statistics are always dangerously interpreted as well to either bias. It's always much too easy to skew things to an ignorant public. I heard many, many rants on the subject from my stats professor.

[kittycat]

Apparently this 16 year old Jehovah witness kid got cancer, and his parents wouldn't let him have surgery to remove it so he died by 17. Prayer is way too risky . It's like prayer is a form procrastination, no Mom, I don't wanna wake up yet, give me 5 more minutes!

[iChelsea]

Sweeney, on 17 June 2011 - 11:00 PM, said:

Thank you for basically reposting exactly what I said.

I was quoting an article talking about a similar study done. I'm sure there have been other studies with the same results.

[WharfRat]

Sweeney, on 15 June 2011 - 02:32 PM, said:

It's been tested plenty of times.
I recall a particular study where the group that were being prayed for, but didn't know it, endured a lower rate of recovery than those that weren't, as well as those that were and knew it.
Statistically insignificant, but still an amusing result.

As I said above, I don't think it's being contested anywhere (in this topic anyways) that praying for someone without their knowledge of said prayer would benefit them. I do think that there is power in prayer for the person praying, namely, the placebo effect as mentioned above. The placebo effect is truly magnified when people are stretching the limitations of reality by allowing (in their minds) the possibility of supernatural occurrences in their lives. On the other side of that coin, yes, the power of prayer can be dangerous. Giving people a false sense of security and allowing their faith to overrule their common sense is definitely problematic... However when it comes to tragedies, death, famine, etc. I think prayer is definitely important for those who believe it works. When you're talking about prayer and politics... I think Karl Marx said it best with (translated obviously) "Religion is the opium of the people." (p.s. didn't mean to drop some Marx into a casual debate. )

However, the result of that study is certainly amusing nonetheless.

[Ladida]

kittycat, on 18 June 2011 - 02:01 PM, said:

Apparently this 16 year old Jehovah witness kid got cancer, and his parents wouldn't let him have surgery to remove it so he died by 17. Prayer is way too risky . It's like prayer is a form procrastination, no Mom, I don't wanna wake up yet, give me 5 more minutes!

The parents probably reason the outcome as "God called him home because he was such a good person and God wanted him to be with him." Lost count of how many times I've heard people saying that. Death caused by cancer is incredibly painful.. One can only hope that if it happened again, those parents would go the medical route. But if one of those parents gets cancer, they should totally go through what they put their son through.

[IceSandwich]

No, no.
I do believe in God but not in a religious way. My country is extremely religious, therefore, I'm really used to hearing this kind of stuff: that you should pray in order for your problems to be solved, even the huge TV companies made programs where the main idea is to have faith and pray: a person has this average life, then, they meet some stranger who wants them to believe in a certain Catholic saint, the protagonist reluctantly says no because of him/herself not actually believing or because an evil character told them that believeing in saints was for poor people, then, BAM, a lot of unfortunate events start happening to the protagonist, they get sued, lose their, job, their wife/husband leaves them, their child catches some badass disease, etc... you can imagine what I'm talking about. Then, the protagonist starts crying, the stranger from the beginning suddenly appears, tells them that they should pray, the guy prays and alakawoof! Everything is solved now.
After that, I just want to say that I really, really hate this. It's a way for the higher powers to massively tell the people: "Hey, you, stop questioning the government, you should just shut up and pray. That should solve your problems, so stop bothering us!". I don't think that's fair for the poor people or people who are actually faithful Christians/Catholics. That's not only an insult to their intelligence, but also for the basic concepts of their religion. If God exists and actually created us, I think He gave us brains for a purpose. So I say: use them. If you're a believer, then continue praying, that's not wrong in any way, as long as you do it because you're convinced that you should do it; however, I think it's wrong when people start thinking that it will definitely solve your problems, promoting ignorance and laziness.

Edited by IceSandwich, 27 June 2011 - 07:12 AM.

[baby0firefly]

I just let people believe in what they want but it does sound like a huge waste. I'm sure it could of been used in a more productive way.

[jargon]

Prayer ain't going to save America that's for sure.

Though there have been people who have been able to recover from illnesses, typically chronic ones due to prayer, but that's mainly because believing in God is a stress reducer and stress is one of the leading trigger to disease.

[Junsu]

LET THE POWER OF GOD SHINE THROUGH YOU

[chini]

Sweeney, on 17 June 2011 - 11:00 PM, said:

Thank you for basically reposting exactly what I said.

It's not identical. Compare. (just wanted to point that out..not looking to start arguements).

Spoiler

Sweeney, on 15 June 2011 - 02:32 PM, said:

It's been tested plenty of times.
I recall a particular study where the group that were being prayed for, but didn't know it, endured a lower rate of recovery than those that weren't, as well as those that were and knew it.
Statistically insignificant, but still an amusing result.

Endured a lower rate of recovery

iChelsea, on 15 June 2011 - 03:17 PM, said:

In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

Had no effect on recovery rate. These sound like they are being referred by two different studies.

A lot of the peer review papers I am finding Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) are suggesting that prayer had no effect. Here's a couple of them.

http://www.sciencedi...002870305006496 2006 US based study of STEP. The results imply that the prayer group suffered more complications than the non-prayer group. I see that as a coincidence, since it would be unlikely prayer was involved in making these people have more complications.

http://archinte.ama-...act/159/19/2273 Orig. 1988, reposted 1999 US based study. The results imply that the prayer group suffered less complications.

http://managestressn...rst%20paper.pdf 2001 US based study. Conclusion states that the comparison of non-prayer and prayer groups results were not significant, however data suggests that prayer therapy can be beneficial.


Whether you pray or you don't, just don't be an idiot and use it over modern medicine. You can use alongside modern medicine, but not without. Too many people have died because some idiotic parent or guardian thought it would be better to just pray than to take their kid or loved one to the hospital. As far as world problems go, sitting around and praying won't work, other than achieving comforting group or solo effect. As long as there are humans on this planet, world issues can never be solved completely.