31 replies to this topic

[FreedomPenguin]

dunning kruger effect.

[redlion]

nymh, on 08 December 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

I have a lot of friends who had no desire to try with their education, but the problem was not that they felt they were destined to fail, but that they thought that they would succeed regardless of their lack of effort.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, despite your generalizations (your parents telling you that you are special does not equate to a coddled childhood) but I wanted to single out this quote for a second.

You're getting to the heart of the question, but I rather think your answer is a one dimensional strawman. Two problems with what you've said. One, if your friend has no desire to try with education, why would they believe they were going to succeed? Do you really think that lowly of your friend that he doesn't know how hard college is? Second, even if he had the desire to try with his education, you've generalized again by saying that the only reason he'd fail was a lack of effort. Failing can be the sum result of a vast array of factors. I won't even elaborate, because your imagination can take it from there.

Still I agree that a lot of Americans think they're entitled to a degree, and this is wrongheaded. But blaming the students for what their parents and teachers didn't tell them? Not exactly fair-minded either. Education, particularly in America, is a Ponzi scheme.

[nymh]

redlion, on 14 December 2011 - 11:47 PM, said:

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, despite your generalizations (your parents telling you that you are special does not equate to a coddled childhood) but I wanted to single out this quote for a second.

You're getting to the heart of the question, but I rather think your answer is a one dimensional strawman. Two problems with what you've said. One, if your friend has no desire to try with education, why would they believe they were going to succeed? Do you really think that lowly of your friend that he doesn't know how hard college is? Second, even if he had the desire to try with his education, you've generalized again by saying that the only reason he'd fail was a lack of effort. Failing can be the sum result of a vast array of factors. I won't even elaborate, because your imagination can take it from there.

Still I agree that a lot of Americans think they're entitled to a degree, and this is wrongheaded. But blaming the students for what their parents and teachers didn't tell them? Not exactly fair-minded either. Education, particularly in America, is a Ponzi scheme.

You are making a lot of jumps of logic here with my statements. I did not say any of these things that you are assuming are my generalizations. I abbreviated my post for the sake of not boring everyone to death with quotes on GenY employment characteristics from articles or my pondering on the psyche of the young working class in America today. But I feel this warrants a response, as I am not quite the "one dimensional strawman" that you might think.

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One, if your friend has no desire to try with education, why would they believe they were going to succeed? Do you really think that lowly of your friend that he doesn't know how hard college is?

This has nothing to do with how lowly I think of my friend(s), and in fact is not purely based on friends of mine at all, but an observation that I have made over two decades in the education system and my work in the professional field researching and marketing to Gen Y. My peers and students tend to have an attitude of "how little can I get by with?" instead of being proud of their work and putting forth their best effort. It is rare that a student "tries their best" in my experience. This is because we allow our students to "pass" and "succeed" on with minimal input from the student. Why should they have to actually try when they can get by with the bare minimum? And if they do not graduate with flying colors (or even better, not at all), they still have a shot at a professional career. I wasn't even talking about college in my response, but rather school in general, but it does apply to college as well. And I will not argue on how "hard" college is, that totally depends on the major and/or classes taken. Why shoot for a physics degree when you can get by with basic business?

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Second, even if he had the desire to try with his education, you've generalized again by saying that the only reason he'd fail was a lack of effort.

I did not say that.

Quote

(your parents telling you that you are special does not equate to a coddled childhood)

This was not what I said or what I meant. I said that they were coddled their entire life. I was referencing the celebration of underachievement that America has adopted in the last two decades and the entitlement mentality of our young adults and teens that has become prevalent because of it. Let's take this from one article on this problem:

"We're seeing an epidemic of people who are having a hard time making the transition to work — kids who had too much success early in life and who've become accustomed to instant gratification," http://www.freerepub...s/1431497/posts 6/26/05

I am not blaming the student for what their parents and teachers did not tell them. Rather I am trying to highlight that our current educational system (and typical family dynamics) tends to set children up for this type of entitlement attitude by rewarding any effort regardless of how minimal with praise, accolades and eventually a diploma. Kids are jettisoned into the working world expecting the same neverending positive reinforcement; they expect too much out of their employers and have an inflated sense of self worth. This leads to unrealistic salary expectations and unwillingness to take on menial tasks among other problems, contributing to the lightning-fast turnover of Gen Y compared to workers of other generations.

It is time for us to get packing now, we are starting our out-of-town move in about an hour. Thank you for giving me something fun to do this morning.

[Therion]

nymh, on 15 December 2011 - 06:36 AM, said:

Why shoot for a physics degree when you can get by with basic business?

Oh god, this.

Though for possibly different reasons, I feel this is hugely important. My own university gave out articles at one of the courses that, if completed to a satisfactory standard, awarded university entrance. The articles advertised the earning potential of a degree holder vs a non degree holder. I can't tell if they were using it to try and get us to work towards a degree or wanted us to critically analyze the text, but it mentioned nothing of different earning thresholds for degrees (the kid with the medical or business degree will probably make far more than the guy with a degree in music theory) and generally sold the process as a giant cash grab.

If that is what is required to motivate people to study at a higher level, bitter-town here I come.

[redlion]

nymh, on 15 December 2011 - 06:36 AM, said:

You are making a lot of jumps of logic here with my statements. I did not say any of these things that you are assuming are my generalizations. I abbreviated my post for the sake of not boring everyone to death with quotes on GenY employment characteristics from articles or my pondering on the psyche of the young working class in America today. But I feel this warrants a response, as I am not quite the "one dimensional strawman" that you might think.

Right, well I shall make my case and then you shall have your chance to explain how your first post was not chock full of generalizations.

Generalization #1

nymh, on 08 December 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

I have a lot of friends who had no desire to try with their education, but the problem was not that they felt they were destined to fail, but that they thought that they would succeed regardless of their lack of effort.

If I understand your second post correctly, this isn't actually based on your friends, but rather some amalgam of independent thought and cobbled research. If that is indeed the case, why phrase it as though you had so much personal contact with this subset of GenY that has no desire to exert effort? And why deny that it is a generalization? I mean you have to figure there are some overachievers, some under - even if, as you say, the overall trend in educational effort is downward sloping. The article you referenced actually reinforces my point. Namely, that even with the underachievers you're harping on about, there are still well qualified twentysomethings that are being sought out by employers, case in point: "As much as some employers would like to resist the trend, a growing number are searching for ways to retain twentysomething employees — and to figure out what makes them tick."

Generalization #2

nymh, on 08 December 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

Children and teens are raised to believe that they are perfect and special despite minimal effort and lackluster accomplishments.

I can't think of a possible argument you could employ to back this up. How is this not a generalization? Minimal effort? How about curricula taught in schools using the lowest common denominator of required material, or the various ways in which the modern grading scale encourages mediocrity? Those are real issues affecting the current mindset of our youth, and the minimal effort comes not from the youth themselves, but from the educators.

On the perfect and special bit, parents have always told their children they are special, that they can do anything they want to. Hell, imagine what the Great generation must have told their children to make them into the baby boomers! Those hippies you spoke of had parents too, ya know. And after those hippies had their fun at Woodstock being delinquent and unemployed, what did the majority of them do? They settled down, held stable jobs, started families, and told their kids they were perfect and special, just as their parents had told them. What I'm getting at is that it is impossible to classify an entire generation as underachievers. Doing so is the very essence of generalization.

Generalization #3

nymh, on 08 December 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

This generation of mediocre achievement has come to the conclusion that a college education is not necessary, and that good grades are just trying too hard.

Again, this is so generalized, it's hard to see the point you're trying to make. If, however, you are trying to make the case that today's youth are all too cool for school, I will counter with personal testimony. My (public) high school had a 99% college acceptance rate the year I graduated. The top 150 students in my graduating class had over 95 percentile GPAs (admittedly, due in part to grade inflation) and other high schools in my area had similar figures. I am Generation Y, and my experience is so profoundly opposed to what you are saying, I cannot fathom that what you are saying is the dominant trend.

Generalization #4

nymh, on 08 December 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

Then they go out into the professional world and don't understand why employers won't give them management positions and high salaries just because they're a unique and special flower that has been coddled their entire life.

I don't think you read the article from your second post very closely. "Maybe we WERE spoiled by your generation. But I think the word 'entitled' isn't necessarily the word," he said. "Do we think we're deserving if we're going to go out there and bust our ass for you? Yes." Hard work deserves compensation. It has always been that way. Nothing in that article said anything about GenY workers expecting more than their predecessors. The only source to the contrary in that article (the quote you copied for us here) was from a doctor who happens to have written a book on the subject. Imagine that! Someone willing to say something sensational for the chance to plug their book! The article did mention that the folks of Generation Y are more class conscious, altruistic, idealistic, and less willing to be a 'cog in the machine,' but are any of these things necessarily linked to demanding higher pay or less work? Not at all.

nymh, on 15 December 2011 - 06:36 AM, said:

My peers and students tend to have an attitude of "how little can I get by with?" instead of being proud of their work and putting forth their best effort. It is rare that a student "tries their best" in my experience. This is because we allow our students to "pass" and "succeed" on with minimal input from the student. Why should they have to actually try when they can get by with the bare minimum?

First, let me say that pass/fail is a horrible concept in education. Add to that the idea that at some arbitrary percentage, a student has successfully learned enough of a course to not have to take it again, and you've reinforced the idea that failure is an option. These are problems with the schools though, and not with the generation currently matriculating.

nymh, on 15 December 2011 - 06:36 AM, said:

This was not what I said or what I meant. I said that they were coddled their entire life. I was referencing the celebration of underachievement that America has adopted in the last two decades and the entitlement mentality of our young adults and teens that has become prevalent because of it. Let's take this from one article on this problem:

"We're seeing an epidemic of people who are having a hard time making the transition to work — kids who had too much success early in life and who've become accustomed to instant gratification," http://www.freerepub...s/1431497/posts 6/26/05

I think by now I've demonstrated both that I've read the article you're quoting, and that the quote you picked is not representative of the article. Furthermore, I disagree with your assertion that America has somehow accepted, adopted, and/or glorified underachievement, in the last two decades or otherwise. I seriously doubt that this will ever be the case. What exactly do you mean by the celebration of underachievement? Because on face, that's a non sequitur.

nymh, on 15 December 2011 - 06:36 AM, said:

I am not blaming the student for what their parents and teachers did not tell them. Rather I am trying to highlight that our current educational system (and typical family dynamics) tends to set children up for this type of entitlement attitude by rewarding any effort regardless of how minimal with praise, accolades and eventually a diploma. Kids are jettisoned into the working world expecting the same neverending positive reinforcement; they expect too much out of their employers and have an inflated sense of self worth.

Right, this is the bit I would have agreed with, were you to have voiced it in the first place. I want you to know that I'm not disagreeing simply for the sake of it, I do read and consider what you write

nymh, on 15 December 2011 - 06:36 AM, said:

It is time for us to get packing now, we are starting our out-of-town move in about an hour. Thank you for giving me something fun to do this morning.

Hmmm, I actually just finished moving cross-country. Two days in a car makes Paddy an unhappy camper. But, I will say that I'm glad to reciprocate the favor and give you some food for thought. It's been too long since I've exercised these particular mental muscles. Cheers

[nymh]

redlion, on 19 December 2011 - 04:19 AM, said:

Right, well I shall make my case and then you shall have your chance to explain how your first post was not chock full of generalizations.

Right, this is the bit I would have agreed with, were you to have voiced it in the first place. I want you to know that I'm not disagreeing simply for the sake of it, I do read and consider what you write

Hmmm, I actually just finished moving cross-country. Two days in a car makes Paddy an unhappy camper. But, I will say that I'm glad to reciprocate the favor and give you some food for thought. It's been too long since I've exercised these particular mental muscles. Cheers

My first post was a quick response to a question on possible subject matter for a satirical paper. I did not think that it would require quite as much thought or consideration as you are putting into it (and as I am by responding to you). I wanted to project my thoughts on the matter, I did not plan to get into a debate on it. Whatever generalizations that I seem to have made (as, I maintain, my thoughts on this subject are based on multidisciplinary experience and not broad assumptions) were for the sake of brevity to spare both the reader and myself. I have an entire 3" binder somewhere in this mess with articles pulled from trade journals and printed from the web - it has a large section dedicated to Gen Y - but since I cannot find it, I pulled one from the internet. If you wish, I can take a picture for you when I find it (it's an impressive binder). I offer this not to be a douche, but because I still think that you don't believe I have actually done any research on this subject.

I think the problem here is that you agree with what I am saying, just not how I am saying it. Honestly these point-by-counterpoint disagreements piss me off. I do not care to go back and defend every line of my original or subsequent post. I realize that I picked through your post to respond to it, but this is because I felt is was more an attack on me and that what you said neither reflected my intent nor was it an accurate representation of the message I wished to convey.

You to agree with my point, but yet you disagree with my supporting information. You criticize my assessment of children being coddled, you seem disagree that students are celebrated for ordinary achievements. I am wondering since you have refuted my arguments what basis you have for thinking that children are not well prepared for the working world? I am not calling Gen Y a generation of underachievers. I feel that the educational system and their families have failed to prepare them for reality.

I'm going to go back and quote this one thing, because I think it very well reflects the nature of this discourse:

Quote

Generalization #2

Quote

nymh, on 08 December 2011 - 08:13 AM, said:

Children and teens are raised to believe that they are perfect and special despite minimal effort and lackluster accomplishments.

I can't think of a possible argument you could employ to back this up. How is this not a generalization? Minimal effort? How about curricula taught in schools using the lowest common denominator of required material, or the various ways in which the modern grading scale encourages mediocrity? Those are real issues affecting the current mindset of our youth, and the minimal effort comes not from the youth themselves, but from the educators.

What you said only further explains the point that I was making. You actually made my argument for me. I am not blaming this on the children, perhaps your dedication to this debate is because you think that I do? Our schools encourage laziness and mediocrity by forcing children to be stifled by the pace of the slowest (or most apathetic) child in the class and then rewarding these children with high marks by inflating their grades which do not reflect their effort. Your blurb on how the parents of our generation are no different than those of other generations was nice, but I must disagree. As our society progresses, we have become more safe and cush. Parents have the option of constant positive reinforcement now, and are encouraged to employ this by the media and "experts" on family dynamics. Our culture has metamorphosed from "spare the rod, spoil the child" to discouraging parents from spanking and instead encouraging distraction and incentives. This is teetering on the line of enticing me into a tangential rant on how disrespectful children of today are compared to earlier generations, but I will spare everyone (and myself the trouble).

So, again, I respect your attention to my post, but I don't think you quite understand the point that I am trying to make. Or maybe you are arguing just for the sake of arguing, though you say you are not.

[davidh93]

no because test scores can change...