14 replies to this topic

[supertrap]

Edit: Changed topic name. Through searches I have found that many members here are quite intellegent and know quite a bit about this sort of stuff. I refuse to believe, that after a few days no one here found anything interesting to add about the E8 Lie. Someone has to have more information.


Found this while reading an article on wattsupwiththat.com about the apparently recent detection of the Higgs Boson particle with the LHC in December 2011. Its a rube goldberg page turner. Hamsters and everything.





Also without making another topic, what do you physics gurus think about this incredibly simple explanation of particle physics?


Is it too much of a coincidence that all known particles follow the predicted trajectories as well as many undetected theoretical particles can be accurately placed on the Lie based on what we think we know about them? Seems like most of the scientific community thinks hes wrong but are very curious all the same.(Alot of the doubts I think stem from people wanting to protect their image. Going on record to support such a radical idea, if proved wrong can be detrimental to ones career. Me not having an image to worry about, would like to say I think its brilliant and that this type of out side of the box thinking is the only way we are going to find a true Universal Theory. )


For those who want a simple explanation on how a complex geometric shape could describe all known matter in the universe and how it behaves watch this.(WARNING: Laymen explanation, read by Morgan Freeman. Most experts frowned on the "through the wormhole" special on the science channel, so take this with a grain of salt.)







Watch this for a more detailed explanation on the theory by the creator himself, Garrett Lisi. Almost 20 mins, but worth the watch.
http://www.ted.com/t...everything.html



Any experts have any ideas on what this model of particle physics means when applied to string theory? Im an armchair expert with no idea how to relate the two, and google is failing me more than ever before. Anyone got a better insight on Lisi's theory?

Edited by supertrap, 18 January 2012 - 10:21 AM.

[redlion]

Wow. I think I'm out of my depth.

Physics has never been my strong suit, despite my attempts to educate myself on the subject. I've never had a solid educational experience with it, so anytime I try to pick up where high school physics left off, I'm inundated with vocabulary that I don't understand, especially on Wikipedia. I end up clicking through 5 or ten hyperlinks in an attempt to reach some point where I understand the majority of what's being said, but I never get to that point.

I'll read your links and watch the videos, but I can't promise that I'll actually have valid input for this discussion.

Kudos for putting together a thread that encourages thought

[supertrap]

redlion, on 16 January 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

Wow. I think I'm out of my depth.

Physics has never been my strong suit, despite my attempts to educate myself on the subject. I've never had a solid educational experience with it, so anytime I try to pick up where high school physics left off, I'm inundated with vocabulary that I don't understand, especially on Wikipedia. I end up clicking through 5 or ten hyperlinks in an attempt to reach some point where I understand the majority of what's being said, but I never get to that point.

I'll read your links and watch the videos, but I can't promise that I'll actually have valid input for this discussion.

Kudos for putting together a thread that encourages thought

I also have never taken a physics class. Not even in highschool. My understanding of physics is strictly that of a laymen. Feynmen and hawking have been my teachers. Theoretical physics has been my lifelong hobby(im 22), that is the only reason why I have any grasp of the concepts. And concepts are all I know. If asked to explain even the simplest physics with mathematics, I would fail miserably. Ha.

If you check out "the universe" series on your favorite pirated TV link site (Ex: watchseries.eu) there are some awesome laymen friendly explanations of some of the more interesting phenomena in physics. Like quantum mechanics/string theorys call for alternate universes etc. Start basic, but interesting and if you have any curiosity for science then your bound to make yourself learn more.

Edit: also richard Feynmans QED is a must read for anyone with a basic understanding of particle physics.

Edited by supertrap, 16 January 2012 - 02:51 AM.

[supertrap]

lol edit.

Edited by supertrap, 18 January 2012 - 10:14 AM.

[iargue]

Fuck you SOPA. I wanted to link an perfect XKCD comic to express my views

[Sweeney]

There's no such thing as an accurate laymen's understanding of particle physics at this kind of level.

I know I don't understand it fully, so I don't see much point in discussing it with people who don't understand it either.

[Melchoire]

Where can one read more about his theory? Seemed kinda interesting, especially if you can derive other physical laws from it...

[supertrap]

Sweeney, on 18 January 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

There's no such thing as an accurate laymen's understanding of particle physics at this kind of level.

I know I don't understand it fully, so I don't see much point in discussing it with people who don't understand it either.

Sure there is.
A laymen can understand the concepts of particle physics. Hence the thousands of books for laymen. The mathematics behind it is another story. Sure your not going to be making any revolutionary breakthroughs, but neither is the laymen reader of a book on Lions. Thats shouldn't stop people who are fascinated by them from learning what they can. With your logic, no one cept people directly working in a particular research field should learn about anything. Maybe if you discussed things more even you could understand some of the more basic parts of quantum mechanics. Dont get yourself down just cause its all too complicated. Youll get there! Believe in yourself


I am not trying to talk about wether or not people should discuss physics. I am trying to talk about Elsi's possible ground breaking theory. Could it really be the grand unified theory? The quantum theory of gravity?

Melchoire, on 18 January 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Where can one read more about his theory? Seemed kinda interesting, especially if you can derive other physical laws from it...

Im asking the same question. There is not alot of good liturature about the E8 Lie and this application of it. Im hoping someone here, like the site owner hydrogen could give more insight.
And ya. If its right, it predicts the existence all sorts of new particles. Even the graviton can be accurately placed on the E8 Lie. As well as the Higgs Field.
Did you watch the second video I posted from the TED lecture thats 20mins? Its a good one, from lisi himself.

Edited by supertrap, 18 January 2012 - 05:31 PM.

[Goose]

I'm going to read this properly when I'm home from work. >.<

[Melchoire]

supertrap, on 18 January 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

Im asking the same question. There is not alot of good liturature about the E8 Lie and this application of it. Im hoping someone here, like the site owner hydrogen could give more insight.
And ya. If its right, it predicts the existence all sorts of new particles. Even the graviton can be accurately placed on the E8 Lie. As well as the Higgs Field.
Did you watch the second video I posted from the TED lecture thats 20mins? Its a good one, from lisi himself.

Yeh I just watched the ted-talk. I'm not at a stage where I can comprehend all this so I only understood about 10% of all that. And it doesn't help that wikipedia's blacked out so I can't read about it all =P

[Sweeney]

supertrap, on 18 January 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

Sure there is.
A laymen can understand the concepts of particle physics. Hence the thousands of books for laymen. The mathematics behind it is another story. Sure your not going to be making any revolutionary breakthroughs, but neither is the laymen reader of a book on Lions. Thats shouldn't stop people who are fascinated by them from learning what they can. With your logic, no one cept people directly working in a particular research field should learn about anything. Maybe if you discussed things more even you could understand some of the more basic parts of quantum mechanics. Dont get yourself down just cause its all too complicated. Youll get there! Believe in yourself

No, you can't.
Unless you understand the mathematics, you don't fully understand the concept. You understand a wooly, watered-down shade of the real concept.

You've pretty much summed up the whole reason that "armchair scientists" are massive twats.

[iargue]

I'm not sure how we can have a theory that explains everything in physics, when we don't have a formula that accounts for gravity completely.

[Sweeney]

See?

[supertrap]

touche

edit:
Maybe your right in saying you cant fully understand it without complete knowledge of the math, still doesn't change the fact that intelligent well informed laymen can have a successful discussion and fact/source exchange.

Edited by supertrap, 19 January 2012 - 07:36 PM.

[Melchoire]

Sweeney, on 18 January 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

No, you can't.
Unless you understand the mathematics, you don't fully understand the concept. You understand a wooly, watered-down shade of the real concept.

You've pretty much summed up the whole reason that "armchair scientists" are massive twats.

I think what supertrap said is pretty accurate. One may not be able to fully understand the concepts but there's such a thing of having a "good idea" of what that concept is. Ie, someone with basic chemistry background will know an atom consists of a nuceus, protons and elections and such but you wouldn't expect them to grasp the fine grain details of how a nucleus is held together or what makes a proton attract an electron. Besides can any physicist say with certainty that they "fully understand" quantum physics?