57 replies to this topic

[Melchoire]

Sweeney, on 02 February 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Depends a little on how you define ghosts... do I believe that the dead have spirits that linger on the physical plane to haunt the living? No.

Do I believe that there are interesting phenomena that people attribute to ghosts that aren't explained to my satisfaction? Sure.

Well that second definition wouldn't even be a ghost... =P

But I was talking about your first definition, more or less. And it also depends on what you mean by spirit. Does a spirit have all the same memories as you? Does it have your personality? If that's the case, would you be a different person if all your memories were erased? I mean, that's sort of like simulating death isn't it? If all of your memories are erased can you say that you're still the same person as before? If yes, then a spirit would be the ultimate and most certain embodiment of you. Not your body or your memories. And going one step further, if that were also true then your actions and your sins would be irrelevant, since they would just be a product of your memories. Another step still, if that were true then a spirit could not be said to be distinguishable from another since we as humans are unique based on our memories. And if that were true then all spirits would have to be one...meaning we're all one entity experiencing itself simultaneously.

That's a lot of if's but that's pretty much my take on it at the moment.

[Sweeney]

Melchoire, on 02 February 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

Another step still, if that were true then a spirit could not be said to be distinguishable from another since we as humans are unique based on our memories.

I think that's a huge assumption. Memories aren't the only things that make us who we are at all, there's genetics for a start, and a lot of subconscious environmental modelling that takes place far below the level of memory.

[James]

Damn what an interesting viewpoint. I like your idea of "life after death" and I think you have thought a lot about it.

I am looking forward to seeing other people's opinions on death in this thread; very interesting.

[Melchoire]

Sweeney, on 02 February 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

I think that's a huge assumption. Memories aren't the only things that make us who we are at all, there's genetics for a start, and a lot of subconscious environmental modelling that takes place far below the level of memory.

But those differences ultimately cause us to experience reality differently and as a result we have different memories. Consider some guy named Sam. In reality A Sam is bald, as a result he's not very confident in himself and finds it difficult to meet a girl and he dies alone. In reality B he has a full head of smooth luscious hair, he chats up a girl one night at a bar and they fall in love and live happily ever after until he also dies one day. When the two Sams die, the only differences between Sam A's brain and Sam B's brain is their memories. Those genetic differences aren't relevant any longer. Does that make sense? I'm just saying those differences you're talking about end up as differences in our memories. Like if every person on earth was a clone the only way to differentiate between two people would be to read their minds.

[Sweeney]

Melchoire, on 02 February 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

But those differences ultimately cause us to experience reality differently and as a result we have different memories. Consider some guy named Sam. In reality A Sam is bald, as a result he's not very confident in himself and finds it difficult to meet a girl and he dies alone. In reality B he has a full head of smooth luscious hair, he chats up a girl one night at a bar and they fall in love and live happily ever after until he also dies one day. When the two Sams die, the only differences between Sam A's brain and Sam B's brain is their memories. Those genetic differences aren't relevant any longer. Does that make sense? I'm just saying those differences you're talking about end up as differences in our memories. Like if every person on earth was a clone the only way to differentiate between two people would be to read their minds.

Yes, but just because you've defined the spirit as something separate from body and memory, is not to say that this (probably fictional) construct isn't affected by either, just as genetics affects memory.

[Melchoire]

Sweeney, on 02 February 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

Yes, but just because you've defined the spirit as something separate from body and memory, is not to say that this (probably fictional) construct isn't affected by either, just as genetics affects memory.

In that case, I don't understand what you mean. In what ways would they affect the spirit?

[Sweeney]

Melchoire, on 02 February 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

In that case, I don't understand what you mean. In what ways would they affect the spirit?

Who knows? You can't even say what it is, let alone whether it'd be affected by genetics or environment.
Of course, if it isn't, then what's the point of it at all?

[Melchoire]

Sweeney, on 02 February 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

Of course, if it isn't, then what's the point of it at all?

Back to square one =P

This is what I meant, when I was talking about disappointments. Anything I speculate is just that. There's no way of being certain of anything, as inconsequential as it might be.

[Plunk]

I technically died once when I was 10. I was swimming, dove under, hit my head on a rock, and went unconscious face down. By the time I was noticed, I had been under too long and my heart was no longer beating. My dad had some basic EMT training and managed to save my life. I barely remember anything from when it happened, but what I do remember is a high pitched squealing, followed by flashes of color, then waking up. I wouldn't say that it's evidence of an afterlife so much as my brain continuing to function after death, or possibly my brain trying to fill in the gap of memory from when I was out.

[Frizzle]

I would just like to point out Iargue has no comeback yet with anything. Just keeping everyone updated.

[iargue]

Frizzle, on 02 February 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

I would just like to point out Iargue has no comeback yet with anything. Just keeping everyone updated.

I would just like to point out that I stopped caring a long time ago.

[punkrockbigmouth]

nymh, on 02 February 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

I feel like I have been out for hours, when it's only been about 10 seconds.

I know precisely what you mean. Once, at the OB/GYN, years and years ago, I had a blood test and passed out. I swear I lived two weeks of my everyday, normal, mundane life. I woke up at home, ate, went to work. Slept. Watched a lot of tv. Ran errands for my mom. I worked in cosmetics at the time and got commissions on certain lipsticks and suggestive sale items, and I was so happy because one day some rich people came in and bought a shitload of stuff. Then one day when I was at work, my boyfriend came and visited me which I found unusual because 1. it was daytime and he tries to avoid sunlight and 2. he never visits me at work. We were standing in the shampoo aisle talking when I smelled something horrible. I asked him, "What the fuck is that?" and looked up at the lights. Blinking, I still saw lights, but I was suddenly surrounded by nurses back at that doctors office. They had me laying on the ground with my feet up in a chair and I still don't know what that smell was. I was confused, and like a child who falls down unhurt and looks at everyone's expectant faces, I burst into tears. No one comforted me, although one nurse was bragging about herself for having caught me as I fell out of the chair. They gave me water and sent me out the door. My mom in the waiting room was like, "Why are you crying?" I think what hurt the most was I wouldn't get those commissions on those lipsticks.

I feel somewhat disappointed that should I die, my mind would only stir up images of my boring shit work-life that I hate. Why can't a friendly werewolf take me to a carnival and welcome me into everlasting peace?

p.s. I have no fucking idea what those graphs are. I prefer pie charts.

[Melchoire]

punkrockbigmouth, on 02 February 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

I know precisely what you mean. Once, at the OB/GYN, years and years ago, I had a blood test and passed out. I swear I lived two weeks of my everyday, normal, mundane life. I woke up at home, ate, went to work. Slept. Watched a lot of tv. Ran errands for my mom. I worked in cosmetics at the time and got commissions on certain lipsticks and suggestive sale items, and I was so happy because one day some rich people came in and bought a shitload of stuff. Then one day when I was at work, my boyfriend came and visited me which I found unusual because 1. it was daytime and he tries to avoid sunlight and 2. he never visits me at work. We were standing in the shampoo aisle talking when I smelled something horrible. I asked him, "What the fuck is that?" and looked up at the lights. Blinking, I still saw lights, but I was suddenly surrounded by nurses back at that doctors office. They had me laying on the ground with my feet up in a chair and I still don't know what that smell was. I was confused, and like a child who falls down unhurt and looks at everyone's expectant faces, I burst into tears. No one comforted me, although one nurse was bragging about herself for having caught me as I fell out of the chair. They gave me water and sent me out the door. My mom in the waiting room was like, "Why are you crying?" I think what hurt the most was I wouldn't get those commissions on those lipsticks.

I feel somewhat disappointed that should I die, my mind would only stir up images of my boring shit work-life that I hate. Why can't a friendly werewolf take me to a carnival and welcome me into everlasting peace?

p.s. I have no fucking idea what those graphs are. I prefer pie charts.

I heard this story on reddit about this dude who passed out from getting tackled in football or something like that. He said he lived 30 years inside his head while he was passed out for a few hours. He met a girl, got married, had a boy then a girl, had a job and all that. Then one day he noticed that the lamp in his living room was physically askew...it wasn't a 3D object and looked like a 2d picture no matter what angle he viewed it from. He was transfixed on the lamp for days and days until his wife got worried. They got into an argument, and while they were fighting the lamp got brighter and brighter and it engulfed his vision and he woke up! (Sorry can't remember more details)

When I read that I thought it was b.s. but if you can live 2 weeks in a few seconds(it was a few seconds right?)...then his story is totally plausible. And it's oddly unsettling how both of you had your dreams come to halt by some bright light.

How vividly do you remember those 2 weeks?

E: also he became depressed for a very long time after that. He said his son still appears in his dreams sometimes...

[punkrockbigmouth]

Melchoire, on 02 February 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

I heard this story on reddit about this dude who passed out from getting tackled in football or something like that. He said he lived 30 years inside his head while he was passed out for a few hours. He met a girl, got married, had a boy then a girl, had a job and all that. Then one day he noticed that the lamp in his living room was physically askew...it wasn't a 3D object and looked like a 2d picture no matter what angle he viewed it from. He was transfixed on the lamp for days and days until his wife got worried. They got into an argument, and while they were fighting the lamp got brighter and brighter and it engulfed his vision and he woke up! (Sorry can't remember more details)

When I read that I thought it was b.s. but if you can live 2 weeks in a few seconds(it was a few seconds right?)...then his story is totally plausible. And it's oddly unsettling how both of you had your dreams come to halt by some bright light.

How vividly do you remember those 2 weeks?

E: also he became depressed for a very long time after that. He said his son still appears in his dreams sometimes...

They didn't tell me how long I was out. But yes, the transition from my dream world to reality was the florescent light. I don't remember a lot that was too special about the two weeks, because it was exactly like my life, which is not exciting. All I did was ring up customers, pretend to be nice. I mean I just did normal shit for two weeks, went about my everyday life, and waking up to discover it was all not real was really emotionally scaring.... and I didn't even have a son!

The pharmacist gave a girl a flu shot a few weeks ago and she fainted. He didn't help her up because he was so shocked, but when she stirred and sat up, she looked around like "What the hell?" and started crying like I had. I felt so bad for her. I could just tell by the look on her face that she had probably just lived some fantasy and was wondering what the fuck she was doing back at the drug store. I hope she didn't have a son!

I don't know what's worse, having vivid, seemingly real experiences or having everything flash by in a terrifying manner like Joe.

[Melchoire]

punkrockbigmouth, on 02 February 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

They didn't tell me how long I was out. But yes, the transition from my dream world to reality was the florescent light. I don't remember a lot that was too special about the two weeks, because it was exactly like my life, which is not exciting. All I did was ring up customers, pretend to be nice. I mean I just did normal shit for two weeks, went about my everyday life, and waking up to discover it was all not real was really emotionally scaring.... and I didn't even have a son!

The pharmacist gave a girl a flu shot a few weeks ago and she fainted. He didn't help her up because he was so shocked, but when she stirred and sat up, she looked around like "What the hell?" and started crying like I had. I felt so bad for her. I could just tell by the look on her face that she had probably just lived some fantasy and was wondering what the fuck she was doing back at the drug store. I hope she didn't have a son!

I don't know what's worse, having vivid, seemingly real experiences or having everything flash by in a terrifying manner like Joe.

That sorta goes back to the point(or rather, question) I was making earlier. Is it your experiences and memories that make you, you? If this girl spent 2 years living an alternate life, was that girl in the dream a different person? If so, when she woke up did that person die? If not, then what's the difference between reality and dreams? Gah! I sound like a nut. =P

I kinda wish I could have one of these extended dreams....all mine are weird and surreal like some Jodorowsky film.

[redlion]

I quite like nymh's horizontal asymptote theory. Explaining death in mathematical terms is... unusual to say the least. PBRM, all that that means is that the curve never touches the horizontal axis. It gets infinitesimally close to it, but it would take infinitely long to actually touch it. Which is of course impossible in anything but our imagination.

Unfortunately I have to poke a hole in the theory. While it may on the surface explain 'near-death' experiences, it isn't an accurate analogy to actual death. In a medical death, the curve does indeed touch the axis. If the curve is the oxygen level in your brain, death is a lack of oxygen. It actually wouldn't even need to touch it, without proper circulation you could still have some small level oxygenated blood in the brain, but if demand is greater than the available supply... you die.

Besides, if your lucid dream states near death are caused by a lack of oxygen or blood in the brain, what explains people lucid dreaming when they aren't in mortal danger?

Maloo, on 02 February 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

I totally get what you mean here..I'm so curious about what comes next that sometimes I just want to die and figure it out already!
Too bad I wouldn't get to tell everyone what actually goes on after you die, which is kind of frustrating xD

The desire to discover, create and invent is what makes us intelligent. Death is one of the last great mysteries, and it has always been so. That's why there has always been a cult of curiosity around the subject of death. People invent gods, rites, afterlives and everything else under the sun to explain what they don't understand, and no one understands death.

So don't feel frustrated, it's only the human condition. If a thousand thousand generations couldn't solve it, you really shouldn't feel like it's your responsibility.

~~~

Life after death is a myth, perpetrated by religion to elicit obedience from the masses in this life, the only known true life. The only major religion not to espouse this in scripture is Buddhism. Of course, due to syncretic tendencies inherent in man, many paths within Buddhism have absorbed wholly non-buddhist deities and afterlives, which often overshadow the true teachings of the Buddha, namely that nibbana comes to those that help themselves and others, contemplate their existence, and practice moral behavior in this life.

Obviously, there is still an element of faith or belief, but believing in a cycle of life and death is much more logical than believing in an omnipotent, omnipresent all-good god in the face of the Problem of Evil.

[Sweeney]

redlion, on 03 February 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

Unfortunately I have to poke a hole in the theory. While it may on the surface explain 'near-death' experiences, it isn't an accurate analogy to actual death. In a medical death, the curve does indeed touch the axis. If the curve is the oxygen level in your brain, death is a lack of oxygen. It actually wouldn't even need to touch it, without proper circulation you could still have some small level oxygenated blood in the brain, but if demand is greater than the available supply... you die.

That doesn't address the hypothesis at all The point is that as you draw nearer and nearer to the point of brain-death the dissociation between reality's timeline and the dreamstate timeline becomes aysymptotically larger. So while, on the real timeline, you do actually die, your consciousness is trapped in eternity which is in turn trapped within the instant before death.

Quote

Besides, if your lucid dream states near death are caused by a lack of oxygen or blood in the brain, what explains people lucid dreaming when they aren't in mortal danger?

You should know that that's not a problem, Patrick. Just because event (a) causes result (b), that's no reason to rule out (d) causing (b) in different circumstances.
So, just because gunshots to the head cause death, that doesn't mean people can't die from other causes.

iargue, on 02 February 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

I would just like to point out that I stopped caring a long time ago.

Liar.

1) People don't stop caring as soon as they realise they've made a tit of themselves (again). They slink off and hope no one notices.
2) Someone who really didn't care would have ignored Lee.
3) You're you.

[Jake]

Whether or not your brain is able to create one massive lucid dream before it is completely rendered useless it obviously will eventually stop. One minute may pass and that may feel like 6000 years but it will stop. After that is when it gets interesting. I'd throw on more but am using cell phone so f that

[redlion]

Sweeney, on 03 February 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

That doesn't address the hypothesis at all The point is that as you draw nearer and nearer to the point of brain-death the dissociation between reality's timeline and the dreamstate timeline becomes aysymptotically larger. So while, on the real timeline, you do actually die, your consciousness is trapped in eternity which is in turn trapped within the instant before death.

Is there any evidence besides testimony to support a consciousness being trapped in this way? Because I highly doubt there is.

Sweeney, on 03 February 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

You should know that that's not a problem, Patrick. Just because event (a) causes result (b), that's no reason to rule out (d) causing (b) in different circumstances.
So, just because gunshots to the head cause death, that doesn't mean people can't die from other causes.

Sure, it doesn't rule out other reasons for lucid dreaming. It'd be extremely hard to conclusively prove that any one thing causes lucid dreaming. But it's been fairly well documented in medicine that near death experiences are caused in large part by a release of mass doses of DMT in the brain. Naturally occurring DMT also plays a role in dreaming. The two are linked.

[Electromanio]

It's been discovered that before you actually "die" tremendous amounts of DMT are released from your brain. DMT is also believed to be the chemical in your brain that causes you to dream. DMT is the most potent psychedelic drug of any kind. My guess is this is what you experienced, Sweeney. When DMT is smoked (extracted from ANY living thing), you go into an entire different dimension. People that regularly use DMT generally can only handle a trip every month or so, because of the intensity. Contrary to popular belief, acid and shrooms don't have ability to create entire new worlds for you to live in like DMT does. I believe however, when that DMT is broken down by enzymes or what have you, you die and you are non-existent. No lucid dream state, nothing, dead.

Edited by Electromanio, 03 February 2012 - 11:57 PM.

[redlion]

Electromanio, on 03 February 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

It's been discovered that before you actually "die" tremendous amounts of DMT are released from your brain. DMT is also believed to be the chemical in your brain that causes you to dream. DMT is the most potent psychedelic drug of any kind. My guess is this is what you experienced, Sweeney. 1.When DMT is smoked (extracted from ANY living thing), you go into an entire different dimension. 2.People that regularly use DMT generally can only handle a trip every month or so, because of the intensity. 3.Contrary to popular belief, acid and shrooms don't have ability to create entire new worlds for you to live in like DMT does. 4.I believe however, when that DMT is broken down by enzymes or what have you, you die and you are non-existent. No lucid dream state, nothing, dead.

Even though in principle I agree with some of what you say (because I said it an hour before you did), I can't agree with the majority of your statement.

1. You don't go into an entirely different dimension when you consume DMT. You might feel that way while under the effects of a larger than naturally occurring dose, but don't state it as fact.

2. There is no limit on how often one could consume DMT. I know that I personally consumed crystalline DMT more than three times in two days. I realize this is personal testimony, but I know it to be true and I wouldn't bring it up if you hadn't made an utterly false statement.

3. Contrary to popular belief, neither acid, nor magic mushrooms, nor DMT has the ability to create entirely new worlds for you to "live in". Believing that any substance creates a world for you to live in is absolutely ridiculous. I understand you may have been using a figure of speech. But this is a (generally) serious discussion. Hyperbole isn't really a good way to convince people to take you seriously.

4. Well, I've taken DMT on a number of occasions, and I can say with utter confidence that I was neither dead under the influence, nor am I dead now. Your statement is ludicrous.

[Electromanio]

redlion, on 04 February 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

Even though in principle I agree with some of what you say (because I said it an hour before you did), I can't agree with the majority of your statement.

1. You don't go into an entirely different dimension when you consume DMT. You might feel that way while under the effects of a larger than naturally occurring dose, but don't state it as fact.

2. There is no limit on how often one could consume DMT. I know that I personally consumed crystalline DMT more than three times in two days. I realize this is personal testimony, but I know it to be true and I wouldn't bring it up if you hadn't made an utterly false statement.

3. Contrary to popular belief, neither acid, nor magic mushrooms, nor DMT has the ability to create entirely new worlds for you to "live in". Believing that any substance creates a world for you to live in is absolutely ridiculous. I understand you may have been using a figure of speech. But this is a (generally) serious discussion. Hyperbole isn't really a good way to convince people to take you seriously.

4. Well, I've taken DMT on a number of occasions, and I can say with utter confidence that I was neither dead under the influence, nor am I dead now. Your statement is ludicrous.

I feel like you're arguing about the smoking aspect of what I said, which is pretty off-topic. Do you at least agree with the part that pertained to the thread? I didn't mean to say that smoking DMT killed you either. I still think you're there in the flesh, just mind is perceiving it as a different dimension. I understand that DMT is a lot more effective when it's released directly into your brain because it's already in your central nervous system, so dreams are a lot more intense than smoking DMT. I guess I shouldn't even have mentioned smoking it. I honestly didn't mean to say that DMT has some special power that teleports you as a person, I just meant to say that it has the power to make you THINK you're somewhere else than you actually are.


EDIT: I apologize for using hyperbole and stating something that has already been said, also

Edited by Electromanio, 04 February 2012 - 09:17 AM.

[Melchoire]

redlion, on 04 February 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

Even though in principle I agree with some of what you say (because I said it an hour before you did), I can't agree with the majority of your statement.

1. You don't go into an entirely different dimension when you consume DMT. You might feel that way while under the effects of a larger than naturally occurring dose, but don't state it as fact.

2. There is no limit on how often one could consume DMT. I know that I personally consumed crystalline DMT more than three times in two days. I realize this is personal testimony, but I know it to be true and I wouldn't bring it up if you hadn't made an utterly false statement.

3. Contrary to popular belief, neither acid, nor magic mushrooms, nor DMT has the ability to create entirely new worlds for you to "live in". Believing that any substance creates a world for you to live in is absolutely ridiculous. I understand you may have been using a figure of speech. But this is a (generally) serious discussion. Hyperbole isn't really a good way to convince people to take you seriously.

4. Well, I've taken DMT on a number of occasions, and I can say with utter confidence that I was neither dead under the influence, nor am I dead now. Your statement is ludicrous.

Have you seen Enter the Void?

[redlion]

Electromanio, on 04 February 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

I feel like you're arguing about the smoking aspect of what I said, which is pretty off-topic. Do you at least agree with the part that pertained to the thread? I didn't mean to say that smoking DMT killed you either. I still think you're there in the flesh, just mind is perceiving it as a different dimension. I understand that DMT is a lot more effective when it's released directly into your brain because it's already in your central nervous system, so dreams are a lot more intense than smoking DMT. I guess I shouldn't even have mentioned smoking it. I honestly didn't mean to say that DMT has some special power that teleports you as a person, I just meant to say that it has the power to make you THINK you're somewhere else than you actually are.


EDIT: I apologize for using hyperbole and stating something that has already been said, also

I'm not arguing against smoking as an ingestion method. When I tried DMT, I smoked it in combination with cannabis. I'm arguing against most everything else you said.

The part that pertained to this thread was fairly accurate. It is released in large quantities near death, and it is active during dream states. But all that stuff about other dimensions and living in the dream was highly speculative and suspect.

Apology accepted. This isn't a formal debate forum, more of a friendly speculative discussion, so opinion is probably fair game. But your statements were misleading so I had to knock you down a peg. Thanks for having the good grace to recognize the mistake.

Melchoire, on 04 February 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

Have you seen Enter the Void?

Yes. Fantastic cinematography.

[Melchoire]

redlion, on 04 February 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

Yes. Fantastic cinematography.

I still watch the opening sequence on youtube from time to time =P