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Trading on Neocodex


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#26 Elindoril

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 01:50 PM

You know, you have a staff section so you can ask these questions without making the administrative team look unprofessionally uncommunicative :p

He's just absent-minded.

#27 Boggart

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 01:57 PM

That's just IRC At the moment and I'm on my phone :o I was just told over PM that someone else was taking charge and I haven't been home since then :3 and wont be for a while

#28 Sweeney

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 02:00 PM

That's just IRC At the moment and I'm on my phone :o I was just told over PM that someone else was taking charge and I haven't been home since then :3 and wont be for a while

Then don't say anything =/

#29 ch33psh33p

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:16 PM

Advising people to not use the gift option?

That essentially assures the seller ZERO security when it comes to making a virtual sale via paypal.

In the event of a chargeback, if the payment was sent as a purchase, paypal will take the buyer's side 100% if the item being dealt was a virtual good.

The reason people use the gift option is to ensure a more difficult chargeback process (even scammers paying with gift have been able to win chargebacks before, this just shows the buyer power and how paypal will nearly ALWAYS side with the buyer), not to prevent fees.

If sellers begin taking payments as anything besides the gift option, I assure you the amount of chargebacks will increase, beceause it comes at NO RISK to the buyer. They can pay any amount of money they wish, buy things using hundreds of dollars, and be virtually assured that all their money will return home the second they initiate a chargeback.

The difference with sending money as a gift is that you CAN'T initiate a chargeback unless you choose the "unauthorized payment" option, which means you are claiming your paypal was hacked. This makes it a longer process for the scammer who is trying to chargeback, and often has about a 30% winrate for the seller, as opposed to ZERO if the payment was sent as a purchase.

I have had a history of dealing with virtual goods for over 7 years, and I have never won a single case when the buyer initiated a chargeback if the payment was sent as a purchase.

Edited by ch33psh33p, 22 February 2012 - 04:18 PM.


#30 5MGEDOHC

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:27 PM

Thanks for the tips soul! I knew most of these already but some were very helpful(:

#31 zandra

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:52 PM

Advising people to not use the gift option?

That essentially assures the seller ZERO security when it comes to making a virtual sale via paypal.

In the event of a chargeback, if the payment was sent as a purchase, paypal will take the buyer's side 100% if the item being dealt was a virtual good.

The reason people use the gift option is to ensure a more difficult chargeback process (even scammers paying with gift have been able to win chargebacks before, this just shows the buyer power and how paypal will nearly ALWAYS side with the buyer), not to prevent fees.

If sellers begin taking payments as anything besides the gift option, I assure you the amount of chargebacks will increase, beceause it comes at NO RISK to the buyer. They can pay any amount of money they wish, buy things using hundreds of dollars, and be virtually assured that all their money will return home the second they initiate a chargeback.

The difference with sending money as a gift is that you CAN'T initiate a chargeback unless you choose the "unauthorized payment" option, which means you are claiming your paypal was hacked. This makes it a longer process for the scammer who is trying to chargeback, and often has about a 30% winrate for the seller, as opposed to ZERO if the payment was sent as a purchase.

I have had a history of dealing with virtual goods for over 7 years, and I have never won a single case when the buyer initiated a chargeback if the payment was sent as a purchase.




i get what you mean. solving a problem would lead to another form of abuse.

However, this gift option is not always provided by paypal either. (from what i know, it is only provided in the US)

#32 Drakonid

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:57 PM

Advising people to not use the gift option?

That essentially assures the seller ZERO security when it comes to making a virtual sale via paypal.

In the event of a chargeback, if the payment was sent as a purchase, paypal will take the buyer's side 100% if the item being dealt was a virtual good.

The reason people use the gift option is to ensure a more difficult chargeback process (even scammers paying with gift have been able to win chargebacks before, this just shows the buyer power and how paypal will nearly ALWAYS side with the buyer), not to prevent fees.

If sellers begin taking payments as anything besides the gift option, I assure you the amount of chargebacks will increase, beceause it comes at NO RISK to the buyer. They can pay any amount of money they wish, buy things using hundreds of dollars, and be virtually assured that all their money will return home the second they initiate a chargeback.

The difference with sending money as a gift is that you CAN'T initiate a chargeback unless you choose the "unauthorized payment" option, which means you are claiming your paypal was hacked. This makes it a longer process for the scammer who is trying to chargeback, and often has about a 30% winrate for the seller, as opposed to ZERO if the payment was sent as a purchase.

I have had a history of dealing with virtual goods for over 7 years, and I have never won a single case when the buyer initiated a chargeback if the payment was sent as a purchase.


You must REALLY suck at making your case if you have never won one in 7 years, I've had about 10 chargebacks issued, and only one went through. Why? I took adequate precautions and made sure I got all the information and proof I need during the trade, just in case the user tried to pull off something weird...

#33 ch33psh33p

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:05 PM

You've just been extremely fortunate, and the your chargebacks probably only occurred through paypal, not through their CC company.

Once it goes through their CC company, you have ZERO hope.

Edited by ch33psh33p, 22 February 2012 - 05:05 PM.


#34 Sunset

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:12 PM

Advising people to not use the gift option?

That essentially assures the seller ZERO security when it comes to making a virtual sale via paypal.

In the event of a chargeback, if the payment was sent as a purchase, paypal will take the buyer's side 100% if the item being dealt was a virtual good.

The reason people use the gift option is to ensure a more difficult chargeback process (even scammers paying with gift have been able to win chargebacks before, this just shows the buyer power and how paypal will nearly ALWAYS side with the buyer), not to prevent fees.

If sellers begin taking payments as anything besides the gift option, I assure you the amount of chargebacks will increase, beceause it comes at NO RISK to the buyer. They can pay any amount of money they wish, buy things using hundreds of dollars, and be virtually assured that all their money will return home the second they initiate a chargeback.

The difference with sending money as a gift is that you CAN'T initiate a chargeback unless you choose the "unauthorized payment" option, which means you are claiming your paypal was hacked. This makes it a longer process for the scammer who is trying to chargeback, and often has about a 30% winrate for the seller, as opposed to ZERO if the payment was sent as a purchase.

I have had a history of dealing with virtual goods for over 7 years, and I have never won a single case when the buyer initiated a chargeback if the payment was sent as a purchase.


Thats what I was thinking to but haven't delt with paypal much yet so I didn't know to much information to explain. From what I read isn't the gift option for the US only anyways?

You must REALLY suck at making your case if you have never won one in 7 years, I've had about 10 chargebacks issued, and only one went through. Why? I took adequate precautions and made sure I got all the information and proof I need during the trade, just in case the user tried to pull off something weird...


Thinks someone should make a guide about selling through papal

#35 ch33psh33p

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:16 PM

Having a chargeback purely through paypal is easy enough to win.

Having a chargeback through a CC company, different story.

Obviously ManBear is right, winning a chargeback purely through paypal is easy enough with evidence. HOWEVER, a CREDIT CARD COMPANY does not GIVE A DAMN about your virtual goods exchange, they will ALWAYS side with their customer.

#36 zandra

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:26 PM

Having a chargeback purely through paypal is easy enough to win.

Having a chargeback through a CC company, different story.

Obviously ManBear is right, winning a chargeback purely through paypal is easy enough with evidence. HOWEVER, a CREDIT CARD COMPANY does not GIVE A DAMN about your virtual goods exchange, they will ALWAYS side with their customer.


If so, does it really matter whether it is gift option on paypal or not? because as you said the CC would side with their customer anyways.

anyways, i doubt most will go through the trouble of trying to get a chargeback unless you are dealing with an extremely large order, not sure of the process but it seems too much of a hassle.

#37 CJames

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:28 PM

I second Sunset's suggestion that a guide for sellers dealing with paypal in specific how to seal a deal with enough evidence collected along the way to handle chargeback just in case it arises...


Also, lets say i use paypal and the cash is payed using a credit card linked to the paypal... so does this mean if i initiated a chargeback.. its a chargeback from CC Company? I'm new to this chargeback thru cc company...

#38 Drakonid

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:34 PM

You can start a chargeback through either paypal, or the CC company. Through paypal, it would put the money on hold. The CC company will just do the chargeback, and since paypal doesn't like losing money, they'll transfer it to you.

#39 CJames

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:50 PM

I see.. so its literally means from where you initiate the chargeback... i have read about paypal chargeback issues but didn't know that there are scenarios where you do it thru the CC company... so if its thru CC company.. is there any ways to win this fight as a seller?

#40 Kat

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 06:13 PM

Advising people to not use the gift option?

That essentially assures the seller ZERO security when it comes to making a virtual sale via paypal.

In the event of a chargeback, if the payment was sent as a purchase, paypal will take the buyer's side 100% if the item being dealt was a virtual good.

The reason people use the gift option is to ensure a more difficult chargeback process (even scammers paying with gift have been able to win chargebacks before, this just shows the buyer power and how paypal will nearly ALWAYS side with the buyer), not to prevent fees.

If sellers begin taking payments as anything besides the gift option, I assure you the amount of chargebacks will increase, because it comes at NO RISK to the buyer. They can pay any amount of money they wish, buy things using hundreds of dollars, and be virtually assured that all their money will return home the second they initiate a chargeback.

The difference with sending money as a gift is that you CAN'T initiate a chargeback unless you choose the "unauthorized payment" option, which means you are claiming your paypal was hacked. This makes it a longer process for the scammer who is trying to chargeback, and often has about a 30% winrate for the seller, as opposed to ZERO if the payment was sent as a purchase.

I have had a history of dealing with virtual goods for over 7 years, and I have never won a single case when the buyer initiated a chargeback if the payment was sent as a purchase.


I came here to say this^^ It's one of the reasons I ask people to use the gift option..
Other than that, I can only say like others use a middleman, or maybe don't trade at all if you are suspicious. Screenshots wouldn't hurt, either.

#41 Strategist

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 06:46 PM

Screenshots wouldn't hurt, either.


I cannot stress this point enough. Take screenie's of everything, trades onsite, PM's/NM's etc etc. I know screenie's can be faked but it certainly can help you explain the situation a lot easier if you have some sort of 'proof'.

#42 ch33psh33p

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 09:13 PM

I see.. so its literally means from where you initiate the chargeback... i have read about paypal chargeback issues but didn't know that there are scenarios where you do it thru the CC company... so if its thru CC company.. is there any ways to win this fight as a seller?


Its difficult, and highly improbable. Using the gift option reduces your risk as a seller, but it doesn't eliminate it. I would never advise someone to sell and accept anything besides gift, because no matter how you look at it, its suicide.

#43 Keil

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 09:54 PM

Its difficult, and highly improbable. Using the gift option reduces your risk as a seller, but it doesn't eliminate it. I would never advise someone to sell and accept anything besides gift, because no matter how you look at it, its suicide.


It's definitely suicide.

As a trader, can I suggest a rule where if you have 20 UNIQUE trader scores or more with a record of 95% or better, the buyer may consider using the gift option. By 20 trades, the seller must have been reputable enough to be trusted as a seller/buyer or a combination of both. Although it's not a guarantee, there's a higher sense of security than buying 20m+ NP from someone with only 3 trader scores or less.

Also, I volunteer to be a MiddleMan. Should I still PM iargue about being added to the list?

#44 Stitches

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 10:11 PM

A better middleman system sounds like a good idea. I'd be happy to serve as a middle(wo)man as well, though my trade score and rep might not be high enough yet.

As far as using the gift option for paypal, honestly I think that should be a "buyer/seller beware" type of thing. Make the risks known and tell people how to best avoid getting scammed, and then they can use their discretion. I feel like it's not too hard to avoid being scammed if you're being careful. Obviously it still happens, but sometimes there are warning signs or additional safety measures people just don't take note of.

Do paypal fees scale based on the amount being transferred? I assume part of it is tax and part of it is profit for PP? On larger transactions the fee could make things more complicated because then there's the issue of which party pays the fee, if the buyer pays the fee should that be factored into the trade as far as what they're receiving, etc. That would mostly be an issue for larger transactions I suppose, like if someone is paying 100 for something and the fee is an additional 10, should the buyer expect to get 110 worth of whatever they're buying, or just 100? I can see that being a problem.

#45 Nymh

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:32 AM

That would mostly be an issue for larger transactions I suppose, like if someone is paying 100 for something and the fee is an additional 10, should the buyer expect to get 110 worth of whatever they're buying, or just 100? I can see that being a problem.


Well, no and here is my take on this

Let's say that someone is selling an UC Plushie Blumaroo for 50M. Buyer pays 100 but because of the extra fees from PayPal, buyer thinks they are owed either another pet worth 5 mil or 5 mil pure NP.

NOPE

Edited by nymh, 23 February 2012 - 05:33 AM.


#46 Rainie

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 07:13 AM

Ne, I could volunteer to be a middleman also if I seem valid enough o: ~
(I've kind of MMed for a trade before)

&

Do paypal fees scale based on the amount being transferred? I assume part of it is tax and part of it is profit for PP?


The fee is generally 1.9% to 2.9% of the transaction + 30 cents I believe

#47 Keil

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:54 AM

Question: If a middleman is used, should the rule be stated that the transaction must be within the gift option? I'd set the world aflame if I got charged-back for facilitating a trade and gaining nothing from it.

#48 Boggart

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:11 PM

Shouldn't Elin be on that list and have double stars? (:p)

#49 Elindoril

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:37 PM

Shouldn't Elin be on that list and have double stars? (:p)

Ah bugger off, you.

#50 kittycat

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 07:18 AM

Sigh, I don't get why people care so much that they would scam. I've had people buy stuff from me, and then scam from someone else. It doesn't make sense, why didn't they try to scam me, but scammed someone else. Then I feel really guilty for giving trader score. =(


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