277 replies to this topic

[best]

Elaborate please... Why does the concept of heaven instill morality?

For example, we would do more good things in order to go to heaven after we die. Also believing heaven exist would make us less ambitious in the world. 

[luvsmyncis]

Actually in Protestant views, one is saved when one accepts Jesus as their savior. Doing good deeds is the glory of the Holy Spirit working within one, Catholic views are a bit different, and since I'm not Catholic, I'm not sure exactly what their opinion is. I think they say that good deeds are needed to go to heaven, but I'm not certain.

All Catholics get into heaven as long as they repent and ask forgiveness for their sins.

[best]

My elementary school was a catholic school and my middle was a christian school but currently I am in a no religion high school

[PoorCollegeStudent]

I believe that the concept of religion is good in that most religions attempt to elicit good behavior and decisions. Religion also provides a guiding hand towards those who want to believe in a higher power. Religion is evil not in itself, but by groups who use religion to manipulate people to their own beliefs.

[Sweeney]

Religion also provides a guiding hand towards those who want to believe in a higher power.

Can you explain how this is a good thing?

[PoorCollegeStudent]

Can you explain how this is a good thing?

Take for example, a child who has lost both mother and father and is left to abusive relatives or even no relatives. It provides comfort for the child to think that someone greater is watching over him/her. Being alone in the world can be a scary thing. Now I'm not going to argue if god is real or not, but it really does provide a sense of security to some. To me the most powerful thing religion can do for an individual is to provide faith where it can not be found elsewhere. The example I gave is a specific example, but the feelings I presented can be replicated in many other circumstances. Sorry I should have clarified.

 

On the other hand, I don't believe that religion is bad in nature. Most religions seem to advocate philanthropy and benevolence; however it is people that are blinded by their faith which leads to conflicts. You can compare religion to human nature, it's impossible to satisfy everyone simply because it's within human nature to be different. Is it necessary to force everyone to wear a red shirt or eat the same meal if one believes its "better"? Everyone has their own preferences, that including religion, so its impossible to argue that one religion is better than the other. And this is my main dislike of religious followers, I don't believe religion is supposed to be forced down someone's throat. Faith is natural, faith cannot be given.

Edited by h3llm3m0ry, 07 February 2014 - 10:56 AM.

[Sweeney]

Take for example, a child who has lost both mother and father and is left to abusive relatives or even no relatives. It provides comfort for the child to think that someone greater is watching over he/she. Being alone in the world can be a scary thing. Now I'm not going to argue if god is real or not, but it really does provide a sense of security to some. To me the most powerful thing religion can do for an individual is to provide faith where it can not be found elsewhere. The example I gave is a specific example, but the feelings I presented can be replicated in many other circumstances. Sorry I should have clarified.

Oh, ok. I think that a child who is having trouble dealing with the loss of their parents would be better off with therapy to help them deal with the reality of their situation, rather than a comforting lie. In my experience, lying to children rarely has the desired outcome.

But maybe that's just me.

[luvsmyncis]

Oh, ok. I think that a child who is having trouble dealing with the loss of their parents would be better off with therapy to help them deal with the reality of their situation, rather than a comforting lie. In my experience, lying to children rarely has the desired outcome.

But maybe that's just me.

It is just you. Most other people want to feel more important than they actually are. God makes humans special, because believing we were created for some purpose, by some design is way more comforting than knowing our existence occurred by chance without any reason and one day, like all other life which has no meaning, we will die and that will be it. No heaven, no hell. Some people cannot face the reality that we do not matter at all, so they turn to God, a powerful omnipotent being who LOVES US. It's like being retweeted by Lady Gaga. This big important being NOTICED ME. MY EXISTENCE. I now have significance. And when I die, I WON'T just deteriorate and soak away into the Earth, I will have EVERLASTING life in heaven (or hell) but hopefully heaven where I will be united with deceased loved ones whose lives also have meaning because even though they've been dead all these years, they've magically been existing beyond the clouds!

I don't think knowing that you can make a small difference in the lives of the people around you, or that loving and helping and growing and having fun in life is enough for people to get through day after day. They have to know that they are earning brownie points for something bigger and better.

People cannot, and will not accept that they are unimportant. That's why they need God.

[PoorCollegeStudent]

Oh, ok. I think that a child who is having trouble dealing with the loss of their parents would be better off with therapy to help them deal with the reality of their situation, rather than a comforting lie. In my experience, lying to children rarely has the desired outcome.

But maybe that's just me.

I don't think you can classify religion as a lie. It's impossible to prove whether god exists. I'd like to believe that religion is faith in humanity itself. It isn't a lie to believe that someone is watching over you, would you call it a lie to say your deceased relatives are watching over you? It really depends on if you believe it yourself, which then equates back to individuality. You can't tell someone religion is a lie if you can't prove god doesn't exist. Similarly, you can't tell someone god is real if you can't prove if god does exist. So it really all comes down to the essence belief. If you believe therapy helps, go for it, that's the purpose of therapy. If you believe religion helps, then the outcome of religion and therapy are the same, which in this case is the healing of a loss.

Edited by h3llm3m0ry, 07 February 2014 - 12:17 PM.

[Sweeney]

I don't think you can classify religion as a lie. It's impossible to prove whether god exists. I'd like to believe that religion is faith in humanity itself. It isn't a lie to believe that someone is watching over you, would you call it a lie to say your deceased relatives are watching over you? It really depends on if you believe it yourself, which then equates back to individuality. You can't tell someone religion is a lie if you can't prove god doesn't exist. Similarly, you can't tell someone god is real if you can't prove if god does exist. So it really all comes down to the essence belief. If you believe therapy helps, go for it, that's the purpose of therapy. If you believe religion helps, then the outcome of religion and therapy are the same, which in this case is the healing of a loss.

It doesn't matter if you can "prove" the existence of God. To say that you know someone is in heaven, or that you know there is a greater presence looking out for you, is a lie. Plain and simple.

[PoorCollegeStudent]

It doesn't matter if you can "prove" the existence of God. To say that you know someone is in heaven, or that you know there is a greater presence looking out for you, is a lie. Plain and simple.

You misinterpret what I'm saying, believing someone is in heaven and knowing someone is in heaven are two completely different things. It isn't a lie to believe anything if that belief cannot be refuted.

 

A belief is "trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something".

To know is "be absolutely certain or sure about something".

 

As you can see, to believe and to know are two completely different things. So in the context which I'm using belief, it is not a lie to say I believe my deceased relatives are watching over me. It is wrong to say I know my deceased relatives are watching over me. My belief cannot be refuted therefore it is not a lie, since I am not asserting the truth, I am asserting a belief.

Edited by h3llm3m0ry, 07 February 2014 - 01:05 PM.

[Ziz]

Inconsequential.

 

For those saying that world would be better without religion: other ideas could have been used to manipulate the masses.

You misinterpret what I'm saying, believing someone is in heaven and knowing someone is in heaven are two completely different things. It isn't a lie to believe anything if that belief cannot be refuted.

Actually, it is...

 

If you just want to believe without enough proof, you are lying to yourself.

I'm not saying that it's bad or anything. But it's a lie.

[Sweeney]

You misinterpret what I'm saying, believing someone is in heaven and knowing someone is in heaven are two completely different things. It isn't a lie to believe anything if that belief cannot be refuted.

No, I don't misinterpret what you are saying. I'm saying that you don't understand the concept appropriately. People don't say "I believe your parents are in a better place now".

They say "Your parents are in a better place now".

Lie.

[PoorCollegeStudent]

Inconsequential.

 

For those saying that world would be better without religion: other ideas could have been used to manipulate the masses.

Actually, it is...

 

If you just want to believe without enough proof, you are lying to yourself.

I'm not saying that it's bad or anything. But it's a lie.

Believing does not equate to proving. It is impossible to prove the existence of heaven. The belief in heaven is certainly a spiritual belief and not a physical belief. How can you prove spirituality? You don't.

No, I don't misinterpret what you are saying. I'm saying that you don't understand the concept appropriately. People don't say "I believe your parents are in a better place now".

They say "Your parents are in a better place now".

Lie.

Then I am not "people", because to me I believe their parents are in a better place, I don't know if they are, but I believe so. You're twisting my concept of belief into other people's certainty in heaven. My concept of heaven is based on a belief and not certainty.

Edited by h3llm3m0ry, 07 February 2014 - 01:16 PM.

[Sweeney]

Then I am not "people", because to me I believe their parents are in a better place, I don't know if they are, but I believe so. You're twisting my concept of belief into other people's certainty in heaven. My concept of heaven is based on a belief and not certainty.

Your belief is fine. When you tell someone that their parents are in heaven, you are lying.

[PoorCollegeStudent]

Your belief is fine. When you tell someone that their parents are in heaven, you are lying.

Exactly, to tell someone that their parents are in heaven is a lie, to believe that their parents are in heaven is perfectly fine. As long as you differentiate between having certainty and having a belief, then it is not a lie to believe.

[Sweeney]

Exactly, to tell someone that their parents are in heaven is a lie, to believe that their parents are in heaven is perfectly fine. As long as you differentiate between having certainty and having a belief, then it is not a lie to believe.

Well, thank you for arguing with me for ten or so posts when you actually agree with what I said.

[PoorCollegeStudent]

Well, thank you for arguing with me for ten or so posts when you actually agree with what I said.

The problems caused by misinterpretation

Edited by h3llm3m0ry, 07 February 2014 - 01:26 PM.

[Doe]

Nice I've always been the person who's had to start this on every other forum I've been to. Interested to see what people have to say because I'm on the fence in this.

[NapisaurusRex]

Nice I've always been the person who's had to start this on every other forum I've been to. Interested to see what people have to say because I'm on the fence in this.

Your argument is stunningly well-reasoned.

Spoiler

I just realized I've been bitter about this comment for a little over two years. I need to get a life

[GhostMommy]

Well, it took awhile to find but I agree, @Bone that comment of yours two years ago was uncalled for!  Very uncharacteristic of you.

[Sweeney]

Well, it took awhile to find but I agree, @Bone that comment of yours two years ago was uncalled for!  Very uncharacteristic of you.

If you click on the curly arrow to the right of the quote's header bar, it takes you right to the post in the quote.

Just another reason why having me on ignore is to your detriment.

[Bone]

Spoiler

I just realized I've been bitter about this comment for a little over two years. I need to get a life

Eh.

[Doe]

I'm still on the fence on this.

 

"Religion keeps the poor from murdering the rich"

"All religion is created by man"

 

In short religion is a tool used to shepherd the masses; yet it does cause many hindrances as a result of it's existence. We would probably be stuck in the stone ages still murdering each other over trivial things while raping and pillaging everyone and everything in our paths if religion were never invented. So the hindrances we experience would likely never of even been able to be a problem.

 

Though with as little information s we have it's hard to properly weigh the pros and cons effectively.

 

Thus I am undecided, and likely will remain so.

 

Though in hindsight with the way the world is headed nowadays I think it may be best if we give the "ignorant" something to keep them in line. Though there may be another answer to that problem the only one I can think of is properly educating people and making them understand the way things have to be.

 

There's just too many variables at play to pin something down with even a slight bit of certainty.

Edited by Doe, 27 April 2014 - 06:54 AM.

[Frizzle]

That's a massive contradiction.