116 replies to this topic

[8143FF763271]

beyond the pursuit of pleasure?

Discuss.

[Sweeney]

You keep asking these questions that are entirely up to individual taste as if they have an objective answer.

Are you having some sort of existential crisis?

[Random]

If we all say no, maybe he'll kill himself.

[8143FF763271]

You keep asking these questions that are entirely up to individual taste as if they have an objective answer.

Are you having some sort of existential crisis?

I don't think they are entirely up to individual taste. If anything, that you think that shows just what kind of cultural paradigm there is at hand here. In a totalitarian state, the purpose of life is to serve the state or the nation or whatever. For the Nazi, it was whatever was good for the Aryan race. Medieval times? What was good for God or the King. Ancient Egypt? What was good for the Pharaoh. People in distinct cultures have always imposed a meaning or purpose on life. It's only today, in the modern western world, that we are able to attribute to it whatever meaning we want. It's only today that life is, as you suggest, defined by individual taste.

If we can attribute to life any meaning we want... doesn't that mean that the meaning or purpose of life is, essentially, whatever brings us pleasure on an individual basis?

[Sweeney]

I don't believe I said that it was a conscious decision.
Now shush.

[8143FF763271]

I don't believe I said that it was a conscious decision.
Now shush.

I'll take that as an agreement.

[Sweeney]

I'll take that as an agreement.

Whatever works for you.

[8143FF763271]

If we all say no, maybe he'll kill himself.

Wishful thinking if I ever saw it.

[StrikeFreedom]

A related thought is that one only needs meaning in life if one is not happy. An extreme example is that when you win the gold medal at the Olympics and break the world record, during that moment, peak happiness, the last thing you're concerned about is the meaning of life. When people are dissatisfied with their life, they start to look for a "meaning of life".

[Nymh]

Stating that there is an overarching meaning to life implies that there is something divine or omnipresent that the purpose of life is determined by, wouldn't you think? Otherwise it would be strictly individual.

[8143FF763271]

The meaning of an individuals life is based solely on their expectations for themselves, and how they set out to pursue their 'dreams' or 'goals'.
An individual can buy a house, not for pleasure but the necessity of shelter.
An individual will pay their power, water and gas bills, not for pleasure but out of necessity for heat and warmth.
Much the same as an individual could buy a laptop to enable them to stay in contact with others out of the natural urge to not be alone.
All these things give a sense of comfort, not pleasure.

Though I'd wager your 'question' was more inclined in the direction of the carnal sense, only ever chasing a 'bit of tail' so to speak. In which case, if an individual chooses to pursue sexual pleasure then I'm sure that disappointment and self loathing wouldn't be too far behind. Sexual gratification isn't the be all and end all.

All being said an done, true pleasure depends on the individuals chemical reactions to whatever is stimulating their senses at the time.

Why would you want heat or warmth if it didn't brought you pleasure?

Stating that there is an overarching meaning to life implies that there is something divine or omnipresent that the purpose of life is determined by, wouldn't you think? Otherwise it would be strictly individual.

That's my point. People still have qualms about admitting they live for pleasure.

[Sweeney]

This fetishisation of the word "pleasure" is more than a little disturbing.

[8143FF763271]

Fixed.

Anyway, warmth is a basic requirement for humans, we cannot function naked out on a snowy day. So I don't exactly see what you're finding so humorous.

Sure we can function. It's just rather... unpleasant to function that way? We can be in the cold. We simply don't want to because it is an unpleasant experience. Plus, what would functioning matter if it didn't feel good? Would people eat if they weren't hungry? Would people live if they didn't enjoy it? Why do you want to function if it isn't for pleasure?

[Sweeney]

Sure we can function. It's just rather... unpleasant to function that way? We can be in the cold. We simply don't want to because it is an unpleasant experience. Plus, what would functioning matter if it didn't feel good? Would people eat if they weren't hungry? Would people live if they didn't enjoy it? Why do you want to function if it isn't for pleasure?

Hypothermia actually induces a state of euphoria directly prior to causing death.
So... you're doubly wrong on this one.

[8143FF763271]

This fetishisation of the word "pleasure" is more than a little disturbing.

It's a very important concept.

[cowgoesmoo]

42 is the meaning of life.

[8143FF763271]

Hypothermia actually induces a state of euphoria directly prior to causing death.
So... you're doubly wrong on this one.

So do heroin overdoses. Most people just don't want to die. Preventing death is also an attempt to maximize pleasure.

Edited by kami12, 19 August 2012 - 04:53 PM.

[Sweeney]

So do heroin overdoses. Most people just don't want to die. Preventing death is also an attempt to maximize pleasure.

I thought the cold was just "rather... unpleasant"?

[8143FF763271]

I thought the cold was just "rather... unpleasant"?

Unpleasant when it feels bad, even more unpleasant when it threatens your life?

[Sweeney]

Unpleasant when it feels bad, even more unpleasant when it threatens your life?

Didn't we just establish that it feels very pleasant indeed, when it gets to be life-threatening?

[Josh]

42 is the meaning of life.

This.

[8143FF763271]

Didn't we just establish that it feels very pleasant indeed, when it gets to be life-threatening?

Didn't I just say heroin overdoses do too? There are plenty of things that are pleasant which we avoid because they bring us even more undesirable/unpleasant outcomes, like death. People try to maximize pleasure along the continuum of their lives, not just what is happening now. That's why they look forward to retirement but not to hypothermia (albeit some might).

[Sweeney]

Didn't I just say heroin overdoses do too? There are plenty of things that are pleasant which we avoid because they bring us even more undesirable/unpleasant outcomes, like death. People try to maximize pleasure along the continuum of their lives, not just what is happening now. That's why they look forward to retirement but not to hypothermia (albeit some might).

Well, you can only have one or the other.
If everyone's purpose in life is to maximise pleasure along the continuum of their lives, then why do some people do heroin? Why do people smoke, knowing full well that it will shorten their lifespan? Why do people kill themselves, whilst simultaneously holding the belief that they will spend an eternity in hell for doing so?

Also, the pursuit of pleasure, and the pursuit of maximising pleasure across the continuum of a lifespan, are two deeply different concepts. Conflating them is disingenuous.

As much as you want to deny it, people resist simplicity.

[NapisaurusRex]

Why would you want heat or warmth if it didn't brought you pleasure?

Survival. Survival>pleasure.

[8143FF763271]

Well, you can only have one or the other.
If everyone's purpose in life is to maximise pleasure along the continuum of their lives, then why do some people do heroin? Why do people smoke, knowing full well that it will shorten their lifespan? Why do people kill themselves, whilst simultaneously holding the belief that they will spend an eternity in hell for doing so?

As much as you want to deny it, people resist simplicity.

Because people have different notions of pleasure. Some may not eat meat because they'd get more pleasure by having a long life while I'd personally settle for a death at 70 if it meant a lifetime of eating meat. Also, no one takes hell seriously. It's apparent by the fact that a few years in jail has been a more effective deterrent for crime than an eternity in hell has ever been.

Who lives longer? The man who takes heroin for two years and dies, or a man who lives on roast beef, water and potatoes 'till 95?" - Huxley