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The ethics of cheating on Neopets


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#1 MysteryMunch

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 09:53 AM

Posted on Debate because it's more about ethics than Neopets, really.

Here's what I think: There are two kinds of cheating. One kind hurts other people; the other kind doesn't. And the line between them can get very, very fuzzy.

So let's start out with an ethical standard that most people agree on: An ethical action is the one that helps people and doesn't hurt them. Which means that cheating at a game--especially one like Neopets, which let's face it is not a serious game--can, by some definitions, be ethical.

There are some things that you could do on Neopets that would obviously not be ethical. Stealing people's accounts (assuming the account is not permanently abandoned) definitely hurts people. That fourteen-year-old kid will lose their cute pet and NP and be really bummed out about it. Not exactly a nice thing to do.

And some things, by the above definition, are completely acceptable. You play something like Snow Wars with an autoplayer to get the trophy--you could just as easily do it manually. You're not gaining an unfair advantage over anyone else; your getting the trophy doesn't prevent anyone else from getting it.

Then there are the fuzzy gray areas. At the lightest shade of gray, you could send scores for flash games or autoplay games that win you NP, which increases the total amount of NP in the economy and contributes to inflation, causing other people's NP to decrease in value ever-so-slightly; but you could have played those games manually. The only difference is that you're saving yourself some carpal-tunnel from not obsessively playing the games yourself. But inflation from people using score-senders and similar doesn't cause distress to anyone else; it doesn't ruin anyone else's fun. So there's no direct harm here, either.

A little more problematic is the practice of sending scores to beat other people to trophies or using autobuyers to get very desirable items from shops. In these cases you are getting an obvious advantage and denying something to someone else. Once again, you aren't causing direct harm, but you could be a small part of someone else's frustration at not getting a trophy they wanted. Because these methods don't involve one person directly attacking another, they don't cause a whole lot of harm, but the fact remains that you're taking something that someone else will not be able to get. In my opinion, if your goal is not to hurt anyone else, the best you can do is to use an autobuyer to do only what you yourself are capable of doing, and to send only the scores you yourself are capable of legitimately obtaining. In that way, you are saving yourself extra clicking, but not taking something you could not have gotten without a program to help you.

Let me make this clear: I started this topic to talk about an interesting philosophical idea, not to sling accusations and say we're all horrible people and should feel horrible--I cheat, too, after all. Neopets is not a serious game, and cheating at it is about as serious as peeking when you're supposed to be counting for hide-and-seek. If you get angry about somebody doing that, then either you're five years old, or you have a very unreasonable temper.

Where do you draw that fuzzy line? Do you think cheating can be ethical, or do you think that it's unethical but just not important enough to worry about?

#2 Guest_coltom_*

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:37 AM

Fail.

It does not hurt another to use an autoplayer, then what is the value in an achievement, what is the value in an accomplishment. The same 14 year playing, learning the rules, putting in the time and effort to win a snow wars trophy, what value is it to him when his accomplishment has been "achieved" by thousands of others by just running a bloody cheater program. You have diluted his accomplishment, you have diluted his honor. He might still have some pride of accomplishment, but you have stolen away any respect or dignity that his victory might have earned.

Of course autoscore inflation is harmful, you effectively steal from every legitimate players when you send autoscores. Why do you think people have an enchanted kiko squeeze toy cost umpteen million, its because the autoplayers and all the rest have inflated the economy to the point that the honorable player can not afford these items, so most give up, and are corrupted too.

Also, it steals, I think, from Neopets. Neopets revenue stream includes likely ad views and ad clicks. I'm not sure of the details, but every autoplayer is one less ad mil to the Host, one less bit of revenue. Thus, it is a parasitic load, not symbiosis in the game playing.

#3 MysteryMunch

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:41 AM

Autoplayers also get them more pageviews, though. And they use those to sell ads. I'm half-convinced that they don't work harder to stop cheating precisely because of all those extra pageviews they can brag about to the advertisers. They just freeze the most obvious cheaters so that it looks like they're doing something. (Most people use adblock anyway. I know I do.)

What you say about autoscore inflation--I already mentioned that. I just don't count it as "harmful" because it doesn't cause distress to another human being. Most of the inflation comes from legit players playing flash games, bringing more NP into the economy than they take out; so the inflation itself is inevitable. Score-sending, etc., only speeds it up somewhat.

Edited by MysteryMunch, 21 August 2012 - 10:43 AM.


#4 Hydrogen

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:47 AM

As far as ads go, how is an autoplayer different then adblock then? They do the same harm in that situation?

#5 Guest_coltom_*

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:00 AM

Assuming of course, that any realistic advertiser would not do basic research before buying banner space on neopets. Autoplayers so degrade the supposed number of ad views, make it seem like the number of pass thru clicks is unreasonably low, that it still degrades Neopets product.

#6 Hydrogen

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:08 AM

Assuming of course, that any realistic advertiser would not do basic research before buying banner space on neopets. Autoplayers so degrade the supposed number of ad views, make it seem like the number of pass thru clicks is unreasonably low, that it still degrades Neopets product.

That's even assuming that the number of people who use autoplayers is large enough to make the slightest of a dent in their clickthrough rates.

Most websites see clickthrough rates in the percents of a percent.

#7 Guest_coltom_*

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:14 AM

Thus it always is with parasites, do you do enough harm to the host to cause an noticeable problem. The more successful a parasite, ultimately the more harm it does to its host, and eventually there is mutual destruction. My impression is that Autobuyers are enough to degrade the host, and people spending 100 million is not caused by honest supply and demand.

#8 Hydrogen

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:18 AM

Thus it always is with parasites, do you do enough harm to the host to cause an noticeable problem. The more successful a parasite, ultimately the more harm it does to its host, and eventually there is mutual destruction. My impression is that Autobuyers are enough to degrade the host, and people spending 100 million is not caused by honest supply and demand.

Unlikely... I would argue that the restocking model is parasitic itself, and not autobuyers. An autobuyer doesn't steal from another person because it is faster. The fact that restocks are self-biasing towards people with faster connections or faster computers is itself the problem. Just by the speeds, you couldn't tell someone was using an autobuyer or not. And there is no difference between an autobuyer winning the restock and taking an item away from a person versus another person winning the restock and taking the item away from another.

tl;dr don't hate the playa, hate the game

#9 MysteryMunch

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:22 AM

Autobuyers don't add any NP to the economy that wouldn't be added without them. If nobody ever used an autobuyer, every restock, all the items that are worthwhile to buy would still be bought, so there is no effect on inflation from autobuyers. It affects who gets the items when they come out of the shops, but not what they're worth.

ETA:

Just by the speeds, you couldn't tell someone was using an autobuyer or not. And there is no difference between an autobuyer winning the restock and taking an item away from a person versus another person winning the restock and taking the item away from another.

Yes. Autobuyers going faster than human reaction times will be frozen; so the real competition is between people with slow versus fast connections. People with slow reflexes can use autobuyers to get to the same level as people with fast reflexes, but no faster.

Neopets could, of course, change the system to one that does not depend on reaction time. But if they did that, they would lose all the pageviews from people constantly refreshing (directly or via an autobuyer) in their shops.

Edited by MysteryMunch, 21 August 2012 - 11:25 AM.


#10 Guest_coltom_*

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:40 AM

Autobuyers degrade the game experience, they bite into the possibility of a person to actually ever luck out at 3 in the morning and get an item for a five figure profit.

I do not hate the player, but I'm not a huge fan of parasites.

#11 Waser Lave

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:44 AM

Autobuyers degrade the game experience, they bite into the possibility of a person to actually ever luck out at 3 in the morning and get an item for a five figure profit.

I do not hate the player, but I'm not a huge fan of parasites.


Why did you actively register and go on to make over 350 posts on a Neopets cheating website if you're so opposed to it?

#12 MysteryMunch

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:51 AM

Funny thing about parasites... The most successful parasites aren't the most dangerous ones. The most successful parasites are the ones that do the least damage to the host--which spread themselves without killing, leaving their hosts unharmed. Think of biology. What's the must successful human parasite? Not Ebola or the black plague. It's the common cold. The most widespread, most constantly active human parasite in existence does very little damage, and is spread so easily because it is little more than an annoyance to its hosts. Holds true for Neopets, too: The less damage you do, the more successful you are. Over time, as it becomes even more successful, a parasite can verge on symbiosis or commensalism and become harmless or even helpful. That's how we got our mitochondria.

I don't mind cheating, especially at a rigged game like Neopets. But "cheating" and "hurting people who don't deserve it" are two different things, and I'm strongly opposed to the latter.

Edited by MysteryMunch, 21 August 2012 - 11:52 AM.


#13 Guest_coltom_*

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 12:08 PM

Why did you actively register and go on to make over 350 posts on a Neopets cheating website if you're so opposed to it?


Missionary. Christ walked among the sinners, the drunkards, the thieves and prostitutes.

Funny thing about parasites... The most successful parasites aren't the most dangerous ones. The most successful parasites are the ones that do the least damage to the host--which spread themselves without killing, leaving their hosts unharmed. Think of biology. What's the must successful human parasite? Not Ebola or the black plague. It's the common cold. The most widespread, most constantly active human parasite in existence does very little damage, and is spread so easily because it is little more than an annoyance to its hosts.

You know, I think I heard Sweeney is a bit of an expert on parasites. While it has been popular wisdom that diseases grow less virulent with time, I understand that there have been some excellent work disproving this notion. The purpose of any disease, any parasite is to replicate. They can just as well take the strategy, in so much as mindless things have a strategy, of quick spread, and damn the hosts survival. Ebola appears to such a case, the flu is almost certainly another. The parasite and host do not need to eventually evolve to a nice coexistence, the parasite may ravage a population as long as there are new host, new venue, and it reproduces.

If these parasite bring down neopets, they'd just move on to another host, or there would be a new class of parasites to attack what ever replaces neopets.

Why did you actively register and go on to make over 350 posts on a Neopets cheating website if you're so opposed to it?

Also, I didn't know what I was doing when I registered. Secondly, most of the women and a few of the men are nice and helpful, on all kinds of issues. As far as dens of rogues, rakes and n'erdowells go, this is a pretty good bunch of scalawags carpetbaggers and confidence men.

There is also, the potential that I am a paid spy, gathering information to bring down some of the very worst of the system parasites, and I'm such a cocky SOB that I'm telling you this to your face, so that when the hammer of justice falls it will be that much sweeter. Just a thought.

#14 MysteryMunch

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 12:20 PM

Missionary. Christ walked among the sinners, the drunkards, the thieves and prostitutes.

Okay, I'm all for the whole missionary thing, but that is not cool. My faith has enough self-righteous hypocrisy as it is; please don't add to the problem. Remember that Christ also chewed out the Pharisees, and deservedly so.

There is also, the potential that I am a paid spy, gathering information to bring down some of the very worst of the system parasites, and I'm such a cocky SOB that I'm telling you this to your face, so that when the hammer of justice falls it will be that much sweeter. Just a thought.

Uhm. Neopets staff knows about this site. It's silly to think they wouldn't. The first result for a Google search when you put in "Neopets programs" is Neocodex; or it least it was when I found this site. The only conclusion I can come to is that they know people are cheating subtly enough to slip under the radar, and don't think it's enough of a problem to throw lawyers and/or programmers at it.

#15 Waser Lave

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 12:30 PM

As cheating sites go I'd imagine we're one of TNT's favourites.

#16 Guest_coltom_*

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 12:31 PM

Remember that Christ also chewed out the Pharisees, and deservedly so.

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I do not mean to come off as a Pharisee. I don't mean to bind anyone to rules of imposed ethics. Just as there are here the preach the "Get Neopets, the deserve it" side, should there be some to that counter with their legitimate business concerns.

Yes, surely Neopets knows about this place, I'm sure they monitor activity to minimize the harm done. If the decide to come down with the righteous sword of fire, ie lawyers, the battle will be over quickly.

Actually, I see an ill wind blowing from the East. Neopets might be starting the end by approving certain "certified" fan sites. This very well could be the first move to protect their trademarks. The second move would be a cease and desist use of their trademarks on this site.

I saw that rip apart most webkinz third party sites, leaving only their own approved illegitimate spawn of a disease jackal.

Edited by coltom, 21 August 2012 - 12:34 PM.


#17 Sweeney

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 12:33 PM

There is, and this is certainly idle speculation on my part, another possible reason for a person to hang around a place like this. Suppose an adult just happened to wonder into a site like this, and just happened to think banner “cheat” is just like a warm and fuzzy site like “Daily Neopets” that says that it provides cheats but actually is limited to hints and walk throughs.

Let us say, that this man just gets caught before his pet name can be pulled from public view. Just suppose, and we’re just shooting the breeze here, let us just suppose this man has a small daughter that is fond of her virtual pet, whom has waited years for him to get enough points for her to buy nice wigs and wings and background. Let us suppose this old man is going to lose his daughters pet, and she is going to cry.

Now, I am a clever man, that I am, and I used to do software that looked at medical data for the patterns of disease. What is codex, other than a disease upon the body neopets? What is codex, except a parasite that draws the best nutrients from the host’s reserve, greedily hording all the best morphing potions and paintbrushes. Neopets needs ad revenue to survive, needs to draw substance from children refreshing in the shops awaiting that rare time when the shop is restocked. If the advertising community knew to the degree that so called hits views are nothing but bots, might they question neopets as a place to put their ad euro? What if, a few people at St. Corporate Nick just got tired of the blatant behavior of a cackling crows that kept their honest players from being able to win any of the good items. Once Neo loses its reputation, once you learn that trophies go to the cheat, awards go to the cheats, what does Neo have other than its reputation.

So, what if a clever man, with some experience in designing software that helped determine epidemiological patterns decided to offer good St. Corporate Nick his services, after all he does not want to make his daughter cry. After all, he’s knows what a fool he was trying to refresh and grab a rare item, when a criminal conspiracy of bots doomed him from the start.

Really, it a wonder that Neo had not really applied countre measures before. The buying behavior of a cheat is almost impossible to miss, blocks of rare items going to a limited number of accounts, high intensity on certain shops but not others. Then the little fools have the audacity to brag about their crimes in public after snatching potions and paintbrushes. I mean, if you are going to steal, you can’t be bragging in public.

Ever heard of a Jew Finder, a fascinating story. Some people, to save themselves or their families from the ovens, would use their knowledge of the ghetto and culture to find their brother Jews in hiding. Horrible, but people have done worse to survive. Let us suppose that this isn’t even that hard, that there are way too many rude and arrogant children that treated a stranger badly. It would not be like I’m turning in one of my own. Just be nice, give pets away for nothing to find out a few definite player names, study the patterns of who brags and when, study the program cheats that are used.
If good St. Nick’s lawyers are involved, then they might just be claiming that codex is a criminal organization under homeland security laws. Nice isn’t it, how corporate America got so many perks for supporting homeland security restrictions. Might even be that good St. Nick’s lawyers have a seizure order ready to go.

My, what an interesting hypothetical. I guess you are real lucky it is just a cute little yarn concocted for your amusement. Oh that Mr. Teel, he is a bull shooting artist, isn’t he. He’d have to be a right sadistic bastard to tell before the hammer came down, as early as tonight at midnight.



#18 8143FF763271

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 12:46 PM

Cheating doesn't have to hurt other people. You just need an unfair advantage over others for it to be considered cheating, that's unethical on its own right. If I went to the olympics to "run track" and rode a bike instead, it would be cheating. Even if it didn't hurt the other players.

While I think that most of your arguments are spot on, you have to count time and lack of work as an unfair advantage. Taking the example of the olympic runner, suppose that a runner has a consistent time of, I don't know, 10 seconds to get to the finish line. Does the fact that he can do it mean that he should just submit his time in every competition and never do anything? He gets to compete and never do anything, which is an unfair advantage over those that do show up and waste their time actually running against the others. Does it not hurt others to have to work yet lose their reward to those that have found out how to avoid that work?

#19 Guest_coltom_*

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 12:54 PM

Ya know, I have said I was a Tear Drinker, a Ta-Ka. It is sort of a religious thing. Hard to pretend that part of me does not exist.

Kamisole12, haven't you gathered all the soco probing you need for whatever little student project you're working one. You could leave the innocents alone.

#20 MysteryMunch

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:01 PM

Cheating doesn't have to hurt other people. You just need an unfair advantage over others for it to be considered cheating, that's unethical on its own right. If I went to the olympics to "run track" and rode a bike instead, it would be cheating. Even if it didn't hurt the other players.

Why is cheating unethical in its own right, even when it does not hurt anyone?

That's an honest question, not a rhetorical one. I cannot think of any reason why having an advantage is bad, if it is not used to harm others. Say you use a program to get an avatar. You don't gain anything but the avatar and you don't take anything from anyone else. That is cheating, but it does not hurt anyone.

#21 Guest_coltom_*

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:07 PM

Why is cheating unethical in its own right, even when it does not hurt anyone?
That is cheating, but it does not hurt anyone.


Does it not devalue the achievement, you make the struggle and effort needed to win into nothing but a click of a cheaters program, so in what value is your trophy?

Honor in all things, in all things honor.

#22 8143FF763271

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:16 PM

Why is cheating unethical in its own right, even when it does not hurt anyone?

That's an honest question, not a rhetorical one. I cannot think of any reason why having an advantage is bad, if it is not used to harm others. Say you use a program to get an avatar. You don't gain anything but the avatar and you don't take anything from anyone else. That is cheating, but it does not hurt anyone.


Actually, you bring up a good rhetorical point. I cannot say that anything is "intrinsically" bad if it isn't undesirable at all. I think a more accurate argument would be that cheating has undesirable effects ipso facto when it involves competition with other people, as it does on Neopets. I want you to take the PS3 trophy interface as an example. Trophies are inherently competitive. They are a positional good that you acquire through gaming. Depending on how many trophies you have, compared to other people, your trophy standing is good. Suppose that a criminal class broke the rules and just got a shitload of trophies doing nothing, this would affect you because now it's even harder for you to get that good trophy rating. The cheaters set the bar too high.

For you to cheat, there has to be a game with established rules of what you can or can't do to win and you're competing for something other people want. They may be able to get it too (such as with snow wars) but you cheating to get it would unfairly reduce the value of the product of winning for people that play fair (snowball prices drop, "everyone" has the trophy and it's not as prestigious). Thus, it negatively affects them.

#23 MysteryMunch

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:51 PM

The issue I have with "honor" for its own sake is that... well, I don't see any value in honor when it isn't a tool being used for a greater goal. Honor by itself is just a lot of pride and inflexibility. It can result in both good and bad things, depending on how it is used. Wars have been fought over honor--wars that didn't need to be fought.

As for negatively affecting others when you cheat at a game: What bugs me about the argument that cheaters hurt other people by denying them trophies, etc., is that cheaters aren't doing very much harm at all compared to the harm done by the way the system is set up. To become rich on Neopets, what you need is a fast connection, a new expensive computer, a lot of free time, and no life. Additionally, the longer you have been on the site, the more profitable your efforts are. There are many things that simply take time, like training a battledome pet or feeding it gourmet food, and cannot be done in a short amount of time through skill alone. The people who don't have those advantages will never become rich, and that's no fault of their own. There are many children whose abilities are simply not good enough to compete with the older teens and adults who are also on the site. Cheating, if anything, levels the playing field--especially if the people who cheat are also helping out the newbies, the youngsters, the people with slow connections, etc. How to do that, I don't know; but I'd dearly love to make it possible for everyone to have the nice things that, generally, only go to the people with either fast connections, a lot of free time, or a lot of seniority. Honestly, that's most of the reason why I'm here. Neopia needs a few thousand Robin Hoods. :)

Edited by MysteryMunch, 21 August 2012 - 01:52 PM.


#24 8143FF763271

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 02:04 PM

The issue I have with "honor" for its own sake is that... well, I don't see any value in honor when it isn't a tool being used for a greater goal. Honor by itself is just a lot of pride and inflexibility. It can result in both good and bad things, depending on how it is used. Wars have been fought over honor--wars that didn't need to be fought.

As for negatively affecting others when you cheat at a game: What bugs me about the argument that cheaters hurt other people by denying them trophies, etc., is that cheaters aren't doing very much harm at all compared to the harm done by the way the system is set up. To become rich on Neopets, what you need is a fast connection, a new expensive computer, a lot of free time, and no life. Additionally, the longer you have been on the site, the more profitable your efforts are. There are many things that simply take time, like training a battledome pet or feeding it gourmet food, and cannot be done in a short amount of time through skill alone. The people who don't have those advantages will never become rich, and that's no fault of their own. There are many children whose abilities are simply not good enough to compete with the older teens and adults who are also on the site. Cheating, if anything, levels the playing field--especially if the people who cheat are also helping out the newbies, the youngsters, the people with slow connections, etc. How to do that, I don't know; but I'd dearly love to make it possible for everyone to have the nice things that, generally, only go to the people with either fast connections, a lot of free time, or a lot of seniority. Honestly, that's most of the reason why I'm here. Neopia needs a few thousand Robin Hoods. :)


A problem in your logic is that you're projecting your own moral conceptions of what should be right unto the rules of the game. You have to take the rules of the game for granted. It's your choice to simply not compete.

Suppose I made basketball up right now. This game certainly gives advantage to people who are tall. Who are you to tell me that my game is "bad" because it gives advantage to tall people? Suppose my game was track running, it gives advantage to people with strong legs and to people that have been training for a while. Who are you to tell me that's bad? Or, suppose, that my game was collecting cards. It would help me to have a large pre-existing capital to buy them and collect them with. Who are you to tell me that's bad? The rules of a game are a given, anything within what they allow is fair. In this case, neopets is a competition of who can afford to spend the most free time on it, who can afford to pay for the best connection, and who can afford to have a long lasting account. Those are the fields that competition is based on and the fact that they do not sit nicely with you does not justify your actions. If you do not like being able to compete on the grounds of having no life, investing on good internet, and maintaining accounts for a long time- play another game. Just don't go justifying the fact that you're cheating on this one.

Edited by kami12, 21 August 2012 - 02:08 PM.


#25 Josh

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 02:23 PM

Sounds like white hat vs black hat.


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