109 replies to this topic

[Futurama]

I try not to cheat on my Shoyru....but those sad faced Kougra's get me every time....what can I say?

[Josh]

Alias, that is one of the things that fascinates me with this place. There are some sincere people that see themselves as white hats, and I honestly do not concur with their self-image.

Mystery, now I'm looking over your last post, and your description sounds right prurty, but I don't seen much reflection in reality. Younger players, by and large, are not the ones running bots, are not the autobuyers and such. They're the ones trying to play legit, and finding prices and glory inflated beyond their reach.

Well, automation sort of falls between the lines. The purpose of "white hacking" is to compromise a system and then build a defense around that compromise so as to prevent a "black hat" from potentially finding and exploiting the compromise. In 99% of the cases with Neocodex, we're simply automating tasks that are already existent on the website. We are not exploiting security holes, phishing accounts, or DDOS'ing for unfair advantages. I really don't think the terms "white hat" or "black hat" really fit well when applied to automation.

[Cript]

I try not to cheat on my Shoyru....but those sad faced Kougra's get me every time....what can I say?

Nice!

[Waser Lave]

Autobuyer users actually tend to have a deflating effect on the Neopets economy because they're more interested in selling items quicker than manual restockers and therefore sell for lower prices.

[MysteryMunch]

You have to take the rules of the game for granted. It's your choice to simply not compete.

Where do the people who make the rules of the game get the power to decide that those rules, however unfair, should be the only ones worth following? Of course they are the only legitimate rules, because the person who makes up the game also makes up the rules; but one mustn't assume that "legitimate" (i.e., official) and "the rules which should be followed" are the same thing. Automatically following whatever rules are put in front of you is a very immature form of morality--not necessarily a defective one, because the rules are usually fair; but they are not always fair, and in those times when there are exceptions, the rule-following sort of morality fails.

Because of the nature of online gaming, what they have done isn't just inventing basketball. They've invented basketball, put everyone from the five-year-old child to the NBA star on the same court, and decreed that we should all play against each other. And anyone who doesn't play on that court, and use baskets set at regulation height, cannot play basketball at all. When you copyright something like Neopets, you have by definition the only thing of its kind. And while there are no laws that say you can't make the game unfair, that doesn't mean you aren't still being an asshat when you make it so unfair that the best players are so far above the average that the average cannot hope to catch up, even if they spend every speck of effort they have available.

Sounds like white hat vs black hat.

More gray, really; I don't think anybody here is trying to make Neopets more secure. But it's far less serious than outright hacking, because nobody's private data is being broken into, nobody's systems are being damaged, nobody's things are getting stolen. All the data that's being sent is as nearly identical as possible to the data which the site is designed to accept. If you do with programs only what you could normally do if you had enough time and a fast connection, you gain no advantage that you couldn't have if you were a rich kid with no job and generous parents.

[Josh]

More gray, really; I don't think anybody here is trying to make Neopets more secure. But it's far less serious than outright hacking, because nobody's private data is being broken into, nobody's systems are being damaged, nobody's things are getting stolen. All the data that's being sent is as nearly identical as possible to the data which the site is designed to accept. If you do with programs only what you could normally do if you had enough time and a fast connection, you gain no advantage that you couldn't have if you were a rich kid with no job and generous parents.

That's what i was getting at. I would call it gray at best.

[Futurama]

TNT should be thankful for AB'ers and stuff like that. If we weren't around...Neopets might be down to like...8K members during peak lol.

[MysteryMunch]

So, you get to play by one set of rules, I get to play by another. Sounds fair, for you.

What I'm saying is that the official set of rules isn't fair and should be changed--but that I have no power to change them for anybody but myself and those I can directly interact with.

That's what i was getting at. I would call it gray at best.

But not malicious. If you're careful of others, nobody has to lose anything.

TNT should be thankful for AB'ers and stuff like that. If we weren't around...Neopets might be down to like...8K members during peak lol.

I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't know how we could measure that. I would be curious to know just how many people use programs of some sort. It's useless to guess at it, because when you do something yourself you subconsciously think it must be more common than it is.

Oh, they might have twice as many loyal player whom don't have to see a select few gathering wealth beyond their dreams, at a manner and rate that clearly indicates that the system is corrupt and unfair.

I think you're really overestimating how much profit you can make with an autobuyer. I've done legit restocking and I've done autobuying, and they are equivalent. What really gave me an advantage with the legit restocking was that I'm fast at ten-key and at that time I had a very fast connection. The Neopets elite aren't the people who use autobuyers; they're people who have fast connections. Even if you could remove every single person who ever used a program on Neopets, there would still be just as much inequality. In fact, it would be worse, because now the people with slower connections would have absolutely no way to catch up at all.

[Zinkk]

Autobuyer users actually tend to have a deflating effect on the Neopets economy because they're more interested in selling items quicker than manual restockers and therefore sell for lower prices.

That's exactly what I do.
I just want more neopoints. I got tired of being "poor" with the legit 5 million pure I earned in a total of 10 years on the site. Always missed all the good restocks after the implementation of random restocks even though my internet connection is much better then a good majority of users. So basically, I wanted to finally complete my neo-goals so I came here to use the programs.

Is it really wrong for me to want to complete my stamp albums, or achieve my dream pets? With the way inflation is, it would be impossible for me to achieve any of the stamp avatars, let alone complete any album aside from seashells without the aid of a abrosia. Besides, even if I saved up 100mil to buy a sticky snowflake stamp, I'd most likely be purchasing that item from someone who cheated to obtain it anyway. So instead I turned to cheating myself to make it easier.

The ones who abuse the programs end up frozen anyway -- speaking of freezing, the chance of being frozen for cheating when you do it right is no higher then the chance of being frozen for not cheating. TNT is freeze happy they just freeze everyone.

[Futurama]

I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't know how we could measure that. I would be curious to know just how many people use programs of some sort. It's useless to guess at it, because when you do something yourself you subconsciously think it must be more common than it is.

I'm willing to bet most of the people on neopets have at least typed in 'Neopets Cheats' on google. Now how many of them find programs to use? I couldn't tell you.

[8143FF763271]

Where do the people who make the rules of the game get the power to decide that those rules, however unfair, should be the only ones worth following? Of course they are the only legitimate rules, because the person who makes up the game also makes up the rules; but one mustn't assume that "legitimate" (i.e., official) and "the rules which should be followed" are the same thing. Automatically following whatever rules are put in front of you is a very immature form of morality--not necessarily a defective one, because the rules are usually fair; but they are not always fair, and in those times when there are exceptions, the rule-following sort of morality fails.[/font][/color]

Legitimate rules and the rules of the person that makes the game are the same thing. You're confusing a game for society. The rules of society are intrinsically different because people do not choose to play them, so we try to make them in a way that reaches a Nash equilibrium. We try to make rules that make people generally happy. However, for SOMEONE'S PRIVATE GAME, legitimate rules are what they decide the rules to be. Fighters cannot use steroids to fight because it is prohibited. If they COULD use steroids, then the use of steroids would be legitimate: The focus of the competition just wouldn't be strength anymore, it would be who can sustain the greater amount of steroids/find the best steroids/not have a heart attack. It's still a competition based on something and that's entirely valid. You may not like what it is based on, but it is still legitimate because those are the rules of the game. It's important to note that a game comes with certain benefits. When you agree to play a game, you take those benefits (such as a potential prize) in exchange for following the rules. A game isn't like a society, it's like a contract. Yes, following the rules of a game you agree to play is mature.

Because of the nature of online gaming, what they have done isn't just inventing basketball. They've invented basketball, put everyone from the five-year-old child to the NBA star on the same court, and decreed that we should all play against each other. And anyone who doesn't play on that court, and use baskets set at regulation height, cannot play basketball at all. When you copyright something like Neopets, you have by definition the only thing of its kind. And while there are no laws that say you can't make the game unfair, that doesn't mean you aren't still being an asshat when you make it so unfair that the best players are so far above the average that the average cannot hope to catch up, even if they spend every speck of effort they have available.

There are plenty of pet owning sites out there. It's also their right to dictate what to do with a product that they offer to you. Just like it's apple's right to charge you 300 dollars for an ipod. Does it make them an asshole? Maybe, but I like that people have the right to sell their product as they see fit. Or should apple sell ipods cheaply just because you can't afford them? This just seems like you trying to justify your selfishness to me.

Edited by kami12, 21 August 2012 - 03:55 PM.

[Waser Lave]

You don't think the high degree of freezing is the inevitable result of so many cheating?

You don't think the activity of places like this isn't the cause for so many innocents being frozen because Neopets takes desperate action to protect its system?

Just saying, if people didn't cheat, there would be no need to freeze anyone for cheating. That is not the same as saying that only the cheaters get frozen.

Neopets actually aren't that bothered about things like autobuyers, if they were they would have fixed their mainshop captcha to make it more difficult to beat (they've only had about 7 or 8 years to fix it and it would only take maybe 20 mins to do). What they are and should be bothered about are the numerous other forums which support the theft of Neopets accounts, pets etc which we don't support at all here. Indeed, there was a case a few days ago of a well-known Neopets account which belonged to a user who died and was effectively acting as a monument to them being broken into and raided by people just to sell the stuff for a bit of profit.

How many people legitimately make 100,000 million NP. That's like imagining that Mitt made his money legitimately and for the ultimate good of all the companies he gutted.

Do you think autobuyer users regularly make 100,000 million NP?

[Futurama]

How many people legitimately make 100,000 million NP. That's like imagining that Mitt made his money legitimately and for the ultimate good of all the companies he gutted.

The people with 100M+ are the minority of Neopets. I was saying in general out of everyone on Neopets, not just people that actually make a lot of NP.

[MysteryMunch]

This just seems like you trying to justify your selfishness to me.

How do you figure I'm being selfish? "Selfish" implies a wish to deprive others to benefit oneself. If you want to benefit yourself while also benefiting others, I don't think that qualifies as selfish.

[8143FF763271]

How do you figure I'm being selfish? "Selfish" implies a wish to deprive others to benefit oneself. If you want to benefit yourself while also benefiting others, I don't think that qualifies as selfish.[/font][/color]

You are depriving others. In this case, you are depriving anyone and everyone that plays neopets fairly. I already pointed that out.

[Futurama]

Waser from what I've seen, given the high ticket items that autobuyers grab out of AA, more than a few.

That's like a select few from here that get every good item that stocks from the AAA.

[Waser Lave]

Waser from what I've seen, given the high ticket items that autobuyers grab out of AA, more than a few.

You're definitely mistaken if you think anybody makes anywhere near 100,000 million NP from autobuying...

Let's consider that in actual restocking terms. Taking the most profitable item (which restocks) in the database, Battle Slices Stamp, which apparently sells for 150 million. A user would need to restock 667 of those to make the amount of NP you claim. The last time an Abrosia user saw that item was on the 4th of June 2012 so we know that it doesn't restock frequently. If we assume that it restocks once every 3 months (which it almost certainly doesn't) it would take a user 167 years to see enough of that item to make the kind of profit you think autobuyer users are regularly making.

Then you need to spread all that over the 200-250 Abrosia users that we usually have running it at any one time plus the autobuyers from other websites and the 15,000-20,000 or so usual legit players and you should realise that autobuyers are incapable of making anywhere near that amount.

[Futurama]

You're definitely mistaken if you think anybody makes anywhere near 100,000 million NP from autobuying...

Let's consider that in actual restocking terms. Taking the most profitable item (which restocks) in the database, Battle Slices Stamp, which apparently sells for 150 million. A user would need to restock 667 of those to make the amount of NP you claim. The last time an Abrosia user saw that item was on the 4th of June 2012 so we know that it doesn't restock frequently. If we assume that it restocks once every 3 months (which it almost certainly doesn't) it would take a user 167 years to see enough of that item to make the kind of profit you think autobuyer users are regularly making.

Then you need to spread all that over the 200-250 Abrosia users that we usually have running it at any one time plus the autobuyers from other websites and the 15,000-20,000 or so usual legit players and you should realise that autobuyers are incapable of making anywhere near that amount.

You just went hard. Don't confuse the man...or anyone else now.