89 replies to this topic

[Frizzle]

I don't think they exist,

Explain, now.

[Sweeney]

Explain, now.

Explain what?
I don't think there are women who consciously make themselves behave submissively in order to match socially-constructed ideals of femininity.

[Romy]

You're not particularly skilled at inferring intent, it seems.

Probably because I'm delusional.

Spoiler

Because the epitome of being feminine is to be submissive. Girls are expected to stay in their place and shut up. If a woman is outspoken, dominant, or assertive, she's a bitch. I know you said you'd rather be a bitch, than get felt up, but sometimes those men hitting on you decide they like a challenge and will try to conquer the bitch. Because sometimes you pricks don't know that NO means NO.

Almost every religion teaches that women are the root of evil, and so their doctrine mandates that all women be treated like possessions. This anger about the free birth control in America and outrage at abortion? It has nothing to do with protecting life and religious freedom, it has everything to do with controlling women and what they do with their bodies.

I think Khali was right. The social constructs of femininity sucks. But only when it is defined by a man. And if you think, "Oh, well there aren't a lot of women who are quiet and submissive anymore." you are turning a blind eye to a ton of cultures in this world today. I believe there ARE women who are mistreated daily because they are women and don't stand up for themselves because they are afraid of abuse or punishment from their husbands, fathers, whoever... and unlike Ivy, I still don't think they deserve to be treated like shit. I don't think you should blame a victim for dressing a certain way, or for being 'weak'.

You're right. Completely right.
Like I stated before, I was thinking westernized/contemporary femininity but you make an excellent point.

[Frizzle]

Explain what?
I don't think there are women who consciously make themselves behave submissively in order to match socially-constructed ideals of femininity.

You don't think middle-eastern, eastern european, some asian cultures and the whole 1950's cultures indoctrinated women into behaving submissively for the sake of femininity?

The whole "The man being right all the time, women are to seen, not heard" etc didn't create a Stockholm like syndrome?

[Sweeney]

You don't think middle-eastern, eastern european, some asian cultures and the whole 1950's cultures indoctrinated women into behaving submissively for the sake of femininity?

The whole "The man being right all the time, women are to seen, not heard" etc didn't create a Stockholm like syndrome?

"Consciously".

[Mishelle]

Internalized misogyny is conscious. A lot of women behave submissively because if they don't they're putting themselves at risk of physical violence. Like that one woman who was gangraped and murdered in India. They chose her because she was ~acting too Western~ and making her own choices as a woman rather than letting herself get married off. There were a few women blaming her for bringing it on herself. This pushes women to submit because they don't want to be beaten, shunned by their peers/family or killed. And it happens in America as well in our batshit insane fundamentalist groups that seem to congregate here and thrive in the middle of nowhere.

[Sweeney]

As far as I'm concerned "behaving submissively because I don't want to be beaten to within an inch of my life", and "behaving submissively because I want to fit the cultural ideals of femininity" are so far from the same thing that I can't believe you equated them.

[Frizzle]

"Consciously".

Yes, it is consciously.

[Mishelle]

As far as I'm concerned "behaving submissively because I don't want to be beaten to within an inch of my life", and "behaving submissively because I want to fit the cultural ideals of femininity" are so far from the same thing that I can't believe you equated them.

It's not a false equivalency when the whole cultural ideal of femininity is based in violence against women. A woman must be submissive and if she's not it's up to the husband or father to make her submit. It's been like that in every single patriarchal society.

Edited by Mishelle, 30 December 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[Sweeney]

It's not a false equivalency when the whole cultural ideal of femininity is based in violence against women. A woman must be submissive and if she's not it's up to the husband or father to make her submit. It's been like that in every single patriarchal society.

Yes. The primary motivator in women who are aware of their subjugation to continue in deference is the threat of violence, or other abuse. Not simply "to embody the ideals of femininity".
They are not the same thing.

[Mishelle]

Yes. The primary motivator in women who are aware of their subjugation to continue in deference is the threat of violence, or other abuse. Not simply "to embody the ideals of femininity".
They are not the same thing.

Femininity is to be quiet, to not draw attention to yourself, to be shy, to be submissive, to be modest, to be domestic, and to look a certain way to attract men (but don't be a slut about it). Even today these ideals are being promoted as being "a lady" and if you know anything about growing up female you will know that it's commonly taught that if a woman doesn't act like a lady then bad things will happen to her.

"Don't draw attention to yourself, you'll attract the wrong attention"
"Don't dress like a slut, you'll get raped"
"Don't fight, ladies don't fight"
"Don't look so frumpy, you'll never get a husband"
"Don't have too much sex, they'll call you a slut and no man will want to marry you"

Need I go on? Yes some women are naturally shy and submissive just like some men are but the fact of the matter is from the moment a female is born she is socialized as to what is ladylike and what isn't and it is very much conscious. From the moment they're able to talk women have to educated on what's ok for girls to do and what isn't ok. What is dangerous and what to do to avoid danger. It's all passed down from word of mouth from mother to daughter or from grandmother to daughter or groups of women. Femininity is not subconscious they're told to act this way even in our wonderful ~post-sexism~ society women are told that the ideal is to be pretty and quiet.

Edited by Mishelle, 30 December 2012 - 11:48 AM.

[Sweeney]

I don't think you're following what I'm saying, so I'm going to end the exchange.

[Mishelle]

I'm following exactly what you're saying

Explain what?
I don't think there are women who consciously make themselves behave submissively in order to match socially-constructed ideals of femininity.

You said this. And this is incorrect.

[kittycat]

Sweeney needs to read some Luce Irigaray

[Dot]

Femininity is to be quiet, to not draw attention to yourself, to be shy, to be submissive, to be modest, to be domestic, and to look a certain way to attract men (but don't be a slut about it). Even today these ideals are being promoted as being "a lady" and if you know anything about growing up female you will know that it's commonly taught that if a woman doesn't act like a lady then bad things will happen to her.

"Don't draw attention to yourself, you'll attract the wrong attention"
"Don't dress like a slut, you'll get raped"
"Don't fight, ladies don't fight"
"Don't look so frumpy, you'll never get a husband"
"Don't have too much sex, they'll call you a slut and no man will want to marry you"

Need I go on? Yes some women are naturally shy and submissive just like some men are but the fact of the matter is from the moment a female is born she is socialized as to what is ladylike and what isn't and it is very much conscious. From the moment they're able to talk women have to educated on what's ok for girls to do and what isn't ok. What is dangerous and what to do to avoid danger. It's all passed down from word of mouth from mother to daughter or from grandmother to daughter or groups of women. Femininity is not subconscious they're told to act this way even in our wonderful ~post-sexism~ society women are told that the ideal is to be pretty and quiet.

 

I agree. No matter where we come from, who we come from or how we are raised, these are the messages that society constantly imparts to us.

 

As for the not standing up for oneself that was mentioned earlier... if it's a comment made in passing by a stranger it's okay to ignore it, it's not weak to say to yourself it won't ruin your day and you won't demean yourself by responding to it. If someone is threatening and harassing you then yes, sometimes being harassed is preferable to the alternative, depending on the situation. That's not weak, that's self-preservation.

 

What bugs me is that no matter how much times have changed over just the last few decades, some things are still the same. Such as the messages in the above quote. Having to be sexy to attract a mate but not so sexy that you're not a worthy mate yourself. How it's okay for men to approach you but you're a maneater if you approach them. How somehow equality is being equated with being free or having to have lots of random sex partners which is now in itself becoming another kind of standard to adhere to. How we're still supposed to be flattered when a man is coming on to us and we can't be offended or frightened if they take things too far because after all they are only paying us a compliment by considering us worthy of their time. And many many more.

 

This started as a thread on femininity but it turned negative and sexual way too soon, which is indicative of how femininity tends to be viewed by most people, or at least most of the people I know, it may differ in other countries. Please let's not forget about it's positive aspects. Anything can be good or bad when taken to extremes. There is also still the middle road. Being average can be a good thing and compromise need not be a bad word. It all depends on the situation.