117 replies to this topic

[Galadriel]

Go wash your vagina, it is obviously very irritable and getting on your nerves. Joe is merely challenging Josh's inactive and passive behaviour to anti-homosexuality cultures and bullying.

Are you trying to say that Sweeney is not an asshole who acts as as if he is above almost everyone or that there is nothing wrong with that? If it is the former is then you're being ridiculous.

Edited by cronus, 22 September 2012 - 05:13 AM.

[Sweeney]

Is there something wrong with valuing yourself over others?

Only when you pretend to hold the opposite view

[Frizzle]

Are you trying to say that Sweeney is not an asshole who acts as as if he is above almost everyone or that there is nothing wrong with that? If it is the former is then you're being ridiculous.

Joe is an incredibly arrogant dickhead, but he backs that up with evidence of intellectual statements and doesn't back down just because someone's feelings might get hurt. I suggest if you feel someone is being a bit mean to you, you tell the teacher. Which is fucking ironic.

[Josh]

*shrug*
I disagree.

Really? I think you made your point very loud and clear that you disagree. I think it would have been better to just state the obvious then stoop down so low as to start insulting me.

And Frizzle, if my behavior was inactive and passive I would just sit by and watch it happen without taking ANY action (hence "inactive"). However, I've already stated that I take the appropriate action as laid out by my command. As I said before, I'm sorry you disagree with the way the military handles these situations Joe, but you're stepping out of place by calling me a coward for following what I am supposed to do.

[Sweeney]

Really? I think you made your point very loud and clear that you disagree. I think it would have been better to just state the obvious then stoop down so low as to start insulting me.

And Frizzle, if my behavior was inactive and passive I would just sit by and watch it happen without taking ANY action (hence "inactive"). However, I've already stated that I take the appropriate action as laid out by my command. As I said before, I'm sorry you disagree with the way the military handles these situations Joe, but you're stepping out of place by calling me a coward for following what I am supposed to do.

I said I could see no reason for your actions other than cowardice. I still can't.
If you're on such good terms with all your shipmates, why can't you just have a quick word and say "Come on now, that's not cool Let it go.", or similar? You know, instead of leaving your gay friends to suffer through it before doing anything.

Doesn't make sense to me.

[Josh]

I said I could see no reason for your actions other than cowardice. I still can't.
If you're on such good terms with all your shipmates, why can't you just have a quick word and say "Come on now, that's not cool Let it go.", or similar? You know, instead of leaving your gay friends to suffer through it before doing anything.

Doesn't make sense to me.

Of course I say those kind of things. As I said before, unless the person has positional authority over me, I would try to stop an event of hazing at the lowest point possible, which would be telling the person to stop. Yes, I would tell someone senior to me "that's not cool," but as a junior sailor I can't lawfully tell them to stop, so in that situation it's better to do as we are taught and simply use your CoC.

How is that being a coward?

[Sweeney]

Of course I say those kind of things. As I said before, unless the person has positional authority over me, I would try to stop an event of hazing at the lowest point possible, which would be telling the person to stop. Yes, I would tell someone senior to me "that's not cool," but as a junior sailor I can't lawfully tell them to stop, so in that situation it's better to do as we are taught and simply use your CoC.

How is that being a coward?

Uh... you said you didn't do that...

[Josh]

Uh... you said you didn't do that...

Negative, I said I didn't try and stop those senior to me.

You never directly asked if I said those kind of things, so I didn't know that's what you were trying to imply. So you really can't say I said I didn't do that because that's the first time if you ever asked if I said that specific kind of thing.

Edited by Josh, 22 September 2012 - 08:05 AM.

[Sweeney]

What?

Do you get involved and ask them to stop, Josh?

What?

[Casilla]

*shrug*
I disagree.

And that just shows how ignorant you are of the military. COC is there for a reason in military, for better or worse. If Josh "stood up" against someone senior to him, not only is his own military career probably ruined, it wouldn't solve the problem.

That person senior to him wouldn't get punished for his actions, and it would bring more attention to the gay person being humiliated by his crewmates - and not necessarily in a sympathetic manner. It would reinforce any beliefs of "well, we shouldn't have gay people in the military because they cause problems".

Command's way of handling problems is with authority and, if needed, subtlety. Those who go outside COC do not propser, do not change anything, do not solve problems.

Real life isn't like the movies. Sometimes you need to follow the law in order to get results instead of acting out of "instinct".

[Josh]

What?



What?

That's not the equivalent of "that's not cool." It may be the case for you, but I don't make that connection.

Edited by Josh, 22 September 2012 - 08:27 AM.

[Sweeney]

And that just shows how ignorant you are of the military. COC is there for a reason in military, for better or worse. If Josh "stood up" against someone senior to him, not only is his own military career probably ruined, it wouldn't solve the problem.

That person senior to him wouldn't get punished for his actions, and it would bring more attention to the gay person being humiliated by his crewmates - and not necessarily in a sympathetic manner. It would reinforce any beliefs of "well, we shouldn't have gay people in the military because they cause problems".

Command's way of handling problems is with authority and, if needed, subtlety. Those who go outside COC do not propser, do not change anything, do not solve problems.

Real life isn't like the movies. Sometimes you need to follow the law in order to get results instead of acting out of "instinct".

But Josh has just said that he does act outside of CoC, by getting involved with a quiet word. So...?

That's not the equivalent of "that's not cool." It may be the case for you, but I don't make that connection.

If only you had managed to make that connection between "getting involved" and "getting involved", think of all the trouble we'd have saved.

[Josh]

But Josh has just said that he does act outside of CoC, by getting involved with a quiet word. So...?

No, I did not say I stand up against someone senior to me.

If only you had managed to make that connection between "getting involved" and "getting involved", think of all the trouble we'd have saved.

I did make that connection, however I did not make the connection of "asking them to stop " to "that's not cool." You should have already understood that I understood the first part because I said at the minimum I go to the COC which is "getting involved."

Edited by Josh, 22 September 2012 - 08:37 AM.

[Sweeney]

No, I did not say I stand up against someone senior to me.

Yes, I would tell someone senior to me "that's not cool,"

This is ridiculous.

[Josh]

This is ridiculous.

I figured you would go there. There's a difference between expressing your opinion and telling a senior crew member to stop. The first is acceptable under military law, the second is not.

[Sweeney]

I figured you would go there. There's a difference between expressing your opinion and telling a senior crew member to stop. The first is acceptable under military law, the second is not.

A valid point. Not sure who it's directed at, though, since I haven't said anything about "telling" anyone to do things.

[Josh]

A valid point. Not sure who it's directed at, though, since I haven't said anything about "telling" anyone to do things.

So you would say that saying "that's not cool" is standing up against someone senior to me? I didn't see it that way, I just thought that was expressing my opinion on the matter. I figured standing up would be defending the person being attacked by telling the harasser to stop.

[Sweeney]

So you would say that saying "that's not cool" is standing up against someone senior to me?

...clearly.

I didn't see it that way, I just thought that was expressing my opinion on the matter. I figured standing up would be defending the person being attacked by telling the harasser to stop.

I never used the term "standing up to" anyone, either. Have you actually been reading my posts?
Edit: Yes I did, my bad. My mistake. Still, standing up to someone doesn't have to involve getting all aggressive and in their face.

[Casilla]

Do you get involved and ask them to stop, Josh?

This is the scenario you initially proposed. Josh has answered you consistently.

[Josh]

...clearly.

Clearly to you, however we're not all Joe, you should know that

I never used the term "standing up to" anyone, either. Have you actually been reading my posts?

Did I misunderstood when you quoted me saying that I wouldn't stand up against a senior member and that I would tell a senior member "that's not cool" you were tying to imply I was contradicting myself? I thought we were discussing this apparent contradiction? I was trying to explain how I did not equivocate standing up to someone to the same as expressing your opinion on a matter.

[Casilla]

He can express an opinion of distaste, but he cannot ask someone senior to stop, as this can be construed as a command.

[Sweeney]

He can express an opinion of distaste, but he cannot ask someone senior to stop, as this can be construed as a command.

Semantics. Expressing an opinion of distaste is an implicit request to stop.

[Josh]

He can express an opinion of distaste, but he cannot ask someone senior to stop, as this can be construed as a command.

Yes, that's what I've been trying to say in my own awkward way

[Sweeney]

Clearly to you, however we're not all Joe, you should know that

No, but most people probably latched on when, as you note below, I directly equated the two.

Did I misunderstood when you quoted me saying that I wouldn't stand up against a senior member and that I would tell a senior member "that's not cool" you were tying to imply I was contradicting myself? I thought we were discussing this apparent contradiction? I was trying to explain how I did not equivocate standing up to someone to the same as expressing your opinion on a matter.

Expressing an opinion is the same as standing up for that opinion, which is, in turn, the same as standing up against opposing opinions.
Is that not obvious?