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Spanking and Other Forms of Punishment

spank discipline merica

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Poll: Is spanking OK? (57 member(s) have cast votes)

Is spanking for punishment OK?

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#251 Sweeney

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:01 PM

Hubris and Sweeney. They just go together.


Aw, it's like you don't know me at all.
And please don't be all posting crap in the debate section. It's rude.

#252 Mishelle

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 06:05 PM

Aw, it's like you don't know me at all.
And please don't be all posting crap in the debate section. It's rude.

 

I'll stop when you do.



#253 Sweeney

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 05:24 AM

I'll stop when you do.


That's cute.

#254 Frizzle

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 05:48 AM

Every single thread. Seriously, both of you, stop ruining good threads.



#255 Sweeney

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 11:12 AM

Every single thread. Seriously, both of you, stop ruining good threads.

 

"Good"?



#256 Frizzle

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 11:13 AM

It was until you turned into the 5 year old you teach at school.



#257 giraffe

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 02:55 AM

Ok finally caught up through this thread.  I have to say that was very interesting for me and has made me think about this when I'd always taken it for granted before.

 

 

Well, you interpreted it incorrectly.
 
 
 
Physically? Short of an underlying condition, I can't imagine why it would.
But if it did, you'd find an alternative time out scenario.

I do have a question though.
Why is physical discomfort unacceptable but not emotional discomfort?

 



#258 Sweeney

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:00 AM

I do have a question though.
Why is physical discomfort unacceptable but not emotional discomfort?


Sensitivity to emotional discomfort is what causes such phenomena as empathy and sympathy. It is a good thing, when applied appropriately.
A person who doesn't feel any emotional discomfort when they break rules, or cause pain, or whatever, is unhealthy.

#259 giraffe

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:13 AM

Sensitivity to emotional discomfort is what causes such phenomena as empathy and sympathy. It is a good thing, when applied appropriately.
A person who doesn't feel any emotional discomfort when they break rules, or cause pain, or whatever, is unhealthy.

But there is a difference in what they feel and what you are deliberately causing them.  Just like there is a difference between someone not feeling if they burn their hand on the stove (which is a legitimate medical concern) and a parent spanking a child. 

Why is it better for you to deliberately cause emotional pain than physical pain?



#260 Sweeney

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:35 AM

But there is a difference in what they feel and what you are deliberately causing them.  Just like there is a difference between someone not feeling if they burn their hand on the stove (which is a legitimate medical concern) and a parent spanking a child. 
Why is it better for you to deliberately cause emotional pain than physical pain?


"Emotional pain" is a little bit of an exaggeration. Is it emotionally painful to put a child in time out?

Anyway, the aim is for them to be aware of the consequences beforehand, so they are making an independent decision about their behaviour. If they choose to make a poor decision, they are choosing to take the consequence. When applied properly, this method should not cause any emotional "pain".

#261 Waser Lave

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:38 AM

Is it emotionally painful to put a child in time out?


I believe that was the method used to discipline Kim Jong-il when he was a child, look what happened there.

#262 Nymh

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:44 AM

But there is a difference in what they feel and what you are deliberately causing them.  Just like there is a difference between someone not feeling if they burn their hand on the stove (which is a legitimate medical concern) and a parent spanking a child. 
Why is it better for you to deliberately cause emotional pain than physical pain?


The goal of non-corporal punishment is to instill the positive qualities of forethought, problem-solving, and sympathy, among other things. Not to cause "emotional pain." It's hardly emotionally scarring to talk civilly and constructively with your child about what they've done, sit them in a time-out chair, or take a toy or blanket away for a little while.

However, hitting a child is both physically and emotionally painful (for both parties, in a lot of instances).

#263 ceterisparibus

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:48 AM

I think we are all going to argue again and again and after it all still retain our opinions on the issue, mainly because....raising kids really boils down to the parent's discretion and values. I'm going to put forth again that certain kid raising measures, taken in moderation and care, is an optional thing and there is no right or wrong in this matter. Outright saying 'its wrong' or 'its right' is not going to make this thread more civil and i don't think its a right step for any future discussion here.



#264 Nymh

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:57 AM

I think we are all going to argue again and again and after it all still retain our opinions on the issue, mainly because....raising kids really boils down to the parent's discretion and values. I'm going to put forth again that certain kid raising measures, taken in moderation and care, is an optional thing and there is no right or wrong in this matter. Outright saying 'its wrong' or 'its right' is not going to make this thread more civil and i don't think its a right step for any future discussion here.


I think everyone would agree that hitting a person with the intent to hurt them is wrong.

Also, people have said that this thread has made them think differently about their own methods of discipline, so I hardly think that it is a futile effort for all involved.

And we're being quite civil, as far as discussions on this forum go :p

#265 giraffe

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:59 AM

"Emotional pain" is a little bit of an exaggeration. Is it emotionally painful to put a child in time out?

Anyway, the aim is for them to be aware of the consequences beforehand, so they are making an independent decision about their behaviour. If they choose to make a poor decision, they are choosing to take the consequence. When applied properly, this method should not cause any emotional "pain".

Well I'd argue that a slight spanking isn't necessarily physical "pain" either.  Are we quibbling about degrees of discomfort/pain?  Maybe pain wasn't the word I should have used, but I can tell you that very often I felt like getting deprived of things was far worse than being spanked, and didn't make me any less resentful of the punishment.
 

The goal of non-corporal punishment is to instill the positive qualities of forethought, problem-solving, and sympathy, among other things. Not to cause "emotional pain." It's hardly emotionally scarring to talk civilly and constructively with your child about what they've done, sit them in a time-out chair, or take a toy or blanket away for a little while.

However, hitting a child is both physically and emotionally painful (for both parties, in a lot of instances).

Wait, why is a slight spank "emotionally scarring"?

Doing something like time-out or taking an object away is teaching them that actions have consequences, right?  I'm still not clear on why using emotional means to teach about consequences is better.  I mean why is isolation like time-out a better choice?

Also, what is your opinion about making them do some sort of physical labor that's not painful?  Something like extra chores?  What if it's something that's reasonable but tiring, like yard work?


I do want to take a moment to say that I find myself mostly agreeing with you, though.



#266 ceterisparibus

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:03 AM

I think everyone would agree that hitting a person with the intent to hurt them is wrong.

Also, people have said that this thread has made them think differently about their own methods of discipline, so I hardly think that it is a futile effort for all involved.

And we're being quite civil, as far as discussions on this forum go :p

 

Oh yea definitely i agree that these are presumptions one must take before going into this thread. I'm mostly referring to people who are just throwing the same pointers against each other repeatedly again and again without any progress in this thread.

 

this is civil? you gonna show me some of the more......interesting threads. I'm still quite foreign in these parts


Edited by ceterisparibus, 30 May 2013 - 05:04 AM.


#267 giraffe

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:09 AM

Are we quibbling about degrees of discomfort/pain? 

 

Ok now I've thought about it a sec and I'm going to step away from this particular rhetorical question, considering a good part of my premise is that spanking is not necessarily abuse.



#268 Sweeney

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:16 AM

Well I'd argue that a slight spanking isn't necessarily physical "pain" either.  Are we quibbling about degrees of discomfort/pain?  Maybe pain wasn't the word I should have used, but I can tell you that very often I felt like getting deprived of things was far worse than being spanked, and didn't make me any less resentful of the punishment.


Of course it felt worse. It was a better consequence. And you felt resentful because you were a child, without the capacity to see that it was an effective sanction. Well, that, or your parents weren't all that great.

I'm still not clear on why using emotional means to teach about consequences is better.  I mean why is isolation like time-out a better choice?


Teaching a child that the appropriate way to deal with problems is by using physical violence is a terrible idea. That, as far as I can see, is an unbelievably simple concept.

Also, what is your opinion about making them do some sort of physical labor that's not painful?  Something like extra chores?  What if it's something that's reasonable but tiring, like yard work?


Fine, where appropriate.

I'm mostly referring to people who are just throwing the same pointers against each other repeatedly again and again without any progress in this thread.


In a debate, the aim is most often not to convince the opposition, but to convince the audience. Just as it is in arranged debate competitions.

Besides, if you look, it is the people who have children who either agree with me, or have come to. The people who dispute it don't actually have any children of their own, or any actual experience in child care other than the efforts of their own parents, and immediate family. We call that "emotionally clouded".

#269 Nymh

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:17 AM

Well I'd argue that a slight spanking isn't necessarily physical "pain" either.  Are we quibbling about degrees of discomfort/pain?  Maybe pain wasn't the word I should have used, but I can tell you that very often I felt like getting deprived of things was far worse than being spanked, and didn't make me any less resentful of the punishment.
 

Wait, why is a slight spank "emotionally scarring"?
Doing something like time-out or taking an object away is teaching them that actions have consequences, right?  I'm still not clear on why using emotional means to teach about consequences is better.  I mean why is isolation like time-out a better choice?
Also, what is your opinion about making them do some sort of physical labor that's not painful?  Something like extra chores?  What if it's something that's reasonable but tiring, like yard work?
I do want to take a moment to say that I find myself mostly agreeing with you, though.


You felt that it was far worse because it is a better punishment overall, not because it was emotionally damaging. Taking a kid's ipod away or making them do extra chores (which, to answer your question, i am a huge fan of - more on that later), is not "hurting" them. Yes, it is unpleasant for them, but not scarring (and also helps combat that fucking annoying sense of entitlement that so many kids have). A "slight spank," whether truly physically painful or not, is not an effective means of punishment for creatures with independent thought. It's a short burst of aggression that teaches nothing except, "If you dont do what i say, i will hurt you." Spanking and then talking about what happened afterward is marginally better, but there still is no need for spanking when it could easily be replaced with other, non-physical forms of punishment as the front-line response with a follow-up talk afterward. Treating children as if they are inferior to adults and therefore do not deserve the same respect when it comes to discipline is demeaning to them as people. Just because they are younger or smaller than us does not mean that we have the right to hit them, and does not mean that they can't learn by the same methods we use with other adults.

On extra chores - I think it should suit the infraction and the age of the child. My children both do chores on their own anyway (3 and 4 year old girls) and they enjoy doing them for the most part, so I don't tend to use that one for my own girls very much unless the house is just really messy and what they did is something that would warrant chores as a consequence.

#270 Sweeney

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:24 AM

On extra chores - I think it should suit the infraction and the age of the child. My children both do chores on their own anyway (3 and 4 year old girls) and they enjoy doing them for the most part, so I don't tend to use that one for my own girls very much unless the house is just really messy and what they did is something that would warrant chores as a consequence.


*nod*

They always clear up their own messes - teaching responsibility, rather than simply punishing them.

#271 darkmadness

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:52 AM

I'm a father of two, 17 and 22. When they were younger, time-outs and depriving them of something they valued worked, however, as they grew older they knew what the consequences of their actions were going to be and had already prepared themselves to lose whatever we chose to take away as punishment.

 

They've grown into amazing adults but I have to admit there were times when myself and my better half were both at our wits end because it seemed like absolutely nothing made a difference, whatever punishment we thought of, they were prepared to cop if they managed to get away with something that was worthwhile.



#272 giraffe

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 06:11 AM

Of course it felt worse. It was a better consequence. And you felt resentful because you were a child, without the capacity to see that it was an effective sanction. Well, that, or your parents weren't all that great.

Not a great way to make an argument btw. 

And I'm not sure why feeling worse is a better option when you're concerned that spanking could cause emotional scarring. 
 

 

Teaching a child that the appropriate way to deal with problems is by using physical violence is a terrible idea. That, as far as I can see, is an unbelievably simple concept.

I still don't know why this is the only lesson you think children draw from physical punishment, or why it's better than the equal "it's okay as long as it's only emotionally damaging" 
However, I think this is the best argument I've seen, and don't really have a counter for it.

 

 

 

Of course it felt worse. It was a better consequence. And you felt resentful because you were a child, without the capacity to see that it was an effective sanction. Well, that, or your parents weren't all that great.

Besides, if you look, it is the people who have children who either agree with me, or have come to. The people who dispute it don't actually have any children of their own, or any actual experience in child care other than the efforts of their own parents, and immediate family. We call that "emotionally clouded".

You don't necessarily know other people's situations to judge their 'emotional cloudedness'.  I mean, aren't you equally emotionally clouded by your relationship with your children?  It's a two-way street. 
And again with the insults not helping support you.
 

You felt that it was far worse because it is a better punishment overall, not because it was emotionally damaging. Taking a kid's ipod away or making them do extra chores (which, to answer your question, i am a huge fan of - more on that later), is not "hurting" them. Yes, it is unpleasant for them, but not scarring (and also helps combat that fucking annoying sense of entitlement that so many kids have). A "slight spank," whether truly physically painful or not, is not an effective means of punishment for creatures with independent thought. It's a short burst of aggression that teaches nothing except, "If you dont do what i say, i will hurt you." Spanking and then talking about what happened afterward is marginally better, but there still is no need for spanking when it could easily be replaced with other, non-physical forms of punishment as the front-line response with a follow-up talk afterward. Treating children as if they are inferior to adults and therefore do not deserve the same respect when it comes to discipline is demeaning to them as people. Just because they are younger or smaller than us does not mean that we have the right to hit them, and does not mean that they can't learn by the same methods we use with other adults.

On extra chores - I think it should suit the infraction and the age of the child. My children both do chores on their own anyway (3 and 4 year old girls) and they enjoy doing them for the most part, so I don't tend to use that one for my own girls very much unless the house is just really messy and what they did is something that would warrant chores as a consequence.

You still haven't told me why spanking is scarring but this isn't.  And my spankings were never "short bursts of agression".  They were deliberate with the discussions of their reasoning BEFORE, not after.  They weren't "front-line" responses.  They always come for repeated offenses and AFTER a verbal warning of what the consequence would be.  It wasn't like I got handed spankings willy-nilly.  I can only think of two times I was spanked.  Removal of privileges always came first.  Always.  And I knew exactly what it meant to my parents to have to spank me (although I appreciate the "this hurts me more than you" a lot more now).

It sounds to me more like you're stressing moderation rather than non-violence, because you can be non-violent and still be incredibly damaging to someone.

I want to say that I disagree because I DO think that children are different (not necessarily inferior) to adults and the same methods of learning aren't as effective.  That's why preschools look remarkably different from college classrooms.

That being said,

 

Just because they are younger or smaller than us does not mean that we have the right to hit them

This is probably the best thing in that entire block, as far as I'm concerned.

And just to be clear, I'm tired so this is me conceding that you have definitely affected my opinion even if it isn't necessarily changed, but I'm tired and moving on  :)

Woo!



#273 Sweeney

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 06:30 AM

Not a great way to make an argument btw.


That wasn't a part of my argument. Nor was it an insult.

And I'm not sure why feeling worse is a better option when you're concerned that spanking could cause emotional scarring.


I'm not sure you understand what emotional scarring actually is. It's not "feeling bad", it's getting a distorted emotional landscape through misapplication of stressors which affects the persons mental attitudes in the future.

I still don't know why this is the only lesson you think children draw from physical punishment, or why it's better than the equal "it's okay as long as it's only emotionally damaging"
However, I think this is the best argument I've seen, and don't really have a counter for it.


I've never said its the only lesson. Please try not to put words in my mouth. It is, however, a very large part of the lesson that children learn from corporal punishment. And the alternative isn't "emotionally damaging", either. That was a clusterfuck of fallacies.

I'm not surprised you don't have a counter for it.

You don't necessarily know other people's situations to judge their 'emotional cloudedness'. I mean, aren't you equally emotionally clouded by your relationship with your children? It's a two-way street.


It could well be a two way street if I was relying purely on personal experience. But, of course, I'm not.

#274 Clipper

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 06:06 AM

Y'know, reading through this has made me question my own views on corporal punishment. I've never really been for or against it much - was spanked a few times as a kid, but mostly put in the corner. What really got me thinking, though, was when it was asked if you should also spank a senior or a person with a disability who might be on an intellectual level similar to that of a child. In college I was trained to work with both groups and the thought of spanking/hitting either one was immediately abhorrent, but then, why don't I feel that way about spanking kids?

 

At first I thought it was a matter of respectfulness - kids are kids, adults are adults, regardless of intellectual levels. But that implies I don't respect kids. I don't LIKE kids and never intend to have any, but I don't think they're all scum or anything, either. They need direction, but often so do the people I work with. However, I'd be way more likely to try and make a kid do what I say than to command someone my own age who has a disability to do something. As a babysitter, for example, I'd be expected to force a kid to take his insulin regardless of what he wants, even if I have to force him. (Or at least I imagine I would be, since it's a health matter.) With adults/seniors, though, I can only request they take it and try to persuade them, even if it puts their life at risk, both from what I've been taught morally and from what I understand legally. 

 

I'm probably just rambling, but I thought this was an interesting subject and it made me think. :)



#275 Valmont0621

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 06:03 PM

I spank my two kids and I have no problem with them at all.  I have tried other various punishments such as calm methods as of praise and explaining situations out.  I grew up with a strict discipline in my life and I carry it over to my kids because I do not want them acting like other kids in their generation.  I do not believe in spanking my wife though, unless it was foreplay or something I guess but at a certain age discipline should be way more mature then that.





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