274 replies to this topic

[Sweeney]

ok.

 

He's not wrong, y'know.

[Waser Lave]

Oh, you're right

Yup.

Consider mine an argument from authority

I don't consider you to be an authority on parenting. In that case I'll consider it to be an opinion as valid as anybody else's in this thread (excluding the weird guy in the YouTube video) since it's an entirely subjective topic anyway.

[Frizzle]

I can probably count the number of times on both hands I was physically hit by my parents. Even at 23, and in my position of authority, I'm still shit scared of angering my parents. It's not being scared of being physically hurt (my dad's hitting his late 50's and my mum's almost a foot shorter than me), it's about not disappointing them and I believe I got that through strict discipline. 

 

I'm actually surprised I didn't get knocked out on a daily basis on the count of being such an arse.

 

Unfortunately this "debate" is never going to be won and people won't be sided by arguments on the internet. It boils down to two different things in my opinion.

 

Individuality - What may work on me, may not work on another child. Some children may need stronger disciplines and some may need less physical, and more communicative. 

 

Culture - This is a huge, huge thing. I work with a nice Nigerian bloke at work and he describes it basically as when he gets home, the kids stop playing, put away their toys and basically go to their rooms and this is mainly out of fear. This absolutely shocks me but in Nigeria this is the norm, and to be fair as long as the abuse isn't going too far, there really isn't anything majorly wrong with it.

 

Other cultures have different methods of punishments, in fact, parents who abuse their kids through physical punishments are more like to be Indian/Pakistani or Nigerian/Ivory Costian (?) or Ghanian. Just a reflection of failure to adapt to different cultures.

 

Personally I think we're too soft as a society and the roots of this are people being too scared to hit their kids and generally not giving a shit. I think that, combined with other external factors such as immigration, education and lack of police reform led to the 2011 London riots and the reason we have such a lack or respect for authority figures.

[Sweeney]

Yup.I don't consider you to be an authority on parenting. In that case I'll consider it to be an opinion as valid as anybody else's in this thread (excluding the weird guy in the YouTube video) since it's an entirely subjective topic anyway.

 

I'm an authority on children

 

And it's not an entirely subjective topic at all. Causing unnecessary pain is fairly objectively poor parenting.

[Frizzle]

Oh, you're right, I suppose. Consider mine an argument from authority

 

Ok glorified babysitter, you're in a position of authority

 

(I do love to tease ) 

[NapisaurusRex]

He's not wrong, y'know.

About which part? I know I'm slightly biased since  the first part of what he said is almost exactly what yung said. Stick to face is kinda like spanking, I guess. Putting sex abuse in the same category as spanking is absurd though. I don't agree that I'm against changing my beliefs, since my beliefs on this topic aren't resolved yet. I agree with the last sentence though,

[Mishelle]

For a couple years in my childhood I lived with a family member she would basically spank you for every little thing, even things you couldn't control. That's why I'm  against spanking because some people take it entirely too far. I would rather use other forms of discipline for my kids. Also spanking doesn't work for all kids, for some kids it just makes them act out even more.

[Sweeney]

About which part? I know I'm slightly biased since  the first part of what he said is almost exactly what yung said. Stick to face is kinda like spanking, I guess. Putting sex abuse in the same category as spanking is absurd though. I don't agree that I'm against changing my beliefs, since my beliefs on this topic aren't resolved yet. I agree with the last sentence though,

 

About where defining "hitting a child's ass with your hand" as seperate from any other kind of hitting is ridiculous.

[Waser Lave]

I'm an authority on children

What you get up to in your spare time is not mine to judge but I don't think primary school teaching counts as an authority figure.

And it's not an entirely subjective topic at all. Causing unnecessary pain is fairly objectively poor parenting.

I meant subjective in that how people react to differing levels of punishment varies widely. Some people respond to niceties, some people respond to a raised voice, some respond to all that 'naughty-step' middle-class nonsense while other respond to (mild) physical correction. I'm not advocating taking a cheese grater to your child's face or beating them senseless with a mango because they didn't eat all of their fish fingers.

[NapisaurusRex]

About where defining "hitting a child's ass with your hand" as seperate from any other kind of hitting is ridiculous.

I can't speak for everyone, but I'd rather get hit with a hand on the ass than a stick on the face, coat hanger on the leg, or a sack of oranges. Maybe I'm weird.

[Sweeney]

I meant subjective in that how people react to differing levels of punishment varies widely. Some people respond to niceties, some people respond to a raised voice, some respond to all that 'naughty-step' middle-class nonsense while other respond to (mild) physical correction. I'm not advocating taking a cheese grater to your child's face or beating them senseless with a mango because they didn't eat all of their fish fingers.

 

Ah, I see. Thing is, while "physical correction" may be the easiest and simplest way to modify certain children's behaviour, it is never the best. It teaches them that physical intimidation is an effective way to get what you want.

And while, technically, it's an accurate lesson, it's not one that parents ought to be teaching their children.

I can't speak for everyone, but I'd rather get hit with a hand on the ass than a stick on the face, coat hanger on the leg, or a sack of oranges. Maybe I'm weird.

 

I'd rather not get hit at all. You forgot that option.

[Waser Lave]

Ah, I see. Thing is, while "physical correction" may be the easiest and simplest way to modify certain children's behaviour, it is never the best. It teaches them that physical intimidation is an effective way to get what you want.

And while, technically, it's an accurate lesson, it's not one that parents ought to be teaching their children.

Do you lean more towards asking them nicely or some other alternative?

[NapisaurusRex]

Ah, I see. Thing is, while "physical correction" may be the easiest and simplest way to modify certain children's behaviour, it is never the best. It teaches them that physical intimidation is an effective way to get what you want.

And while, technically, it's an accurate lesson, it's not one that parents ought to be teaching their children.

Should strangers teach it instead? That's kind of a weird thought, actually. Never mind. I don't want to go there.

I'd rather not get hit at all.

What about kneeling on rice or being told to stand with your arms perfectly straight while holding cans? Are those better than being spanked?

[Sweeney]

Do you lean more towards asking them nicely or some other alternative?

 

I lean towards using the most effective strategy for the individual child that doesn't involve abusive behaviour.

Should strangers teach it instead? That's kind of a weird thought, actually. Never mind. I don't want to go there.What about kneeling on rice or being told to stand with your arms perfectly straight while holding cans? Are those better than being spanked?

 

No, physical abuse is physical abuse

And ideally, no one should teach that lesson. If our children were better equipped, they would be able to handle the people that have learned to get their own way through physical intimidation, instead of learning to cave to it.

[Turnip]

Do you lean more towards asking them nicely or some other alternative?

 

Well, yelling and hitting them isn't going to get you anywhere

[Waser Lave]

I lean towards using the most effective strategy for the individual child that doesn't involve abusive behaviour.

If none of those other strategies work?

[NapisaurusRex]

No, physical abuse is physical abuse

I guess it is, isn't it? I don't know what I thought it was before.

[Frizzle]

Send them off to school being an unruly shit, teachers can't do anything since their powerless, let them on the mean streets to end up getting nicked and then end up in prison of dead? 

 

 

Tis a good plan.

[Sweeney]

I guess it is, isn't it? I don't know what I thought it was before.

 

A convenient tool for manipulating weaker individuals.

Send them off to school being an unruly shit, teachers can't do anything since their powerless, let them on the mean streets to end up getting nicked and then end up in prison of dead? 

 

 

Tis a good plan.

 

Not a problem that can be solved by bringing back the paddle, however.

If none of those other strategies work?

 

They do, eventually. No child can only be helped by smacking them.

[Frizzle]

Not a problem that can be solved by bringing back the paddle, however.

 

Not on its own, no.

[NapisaurusRex]

They do, eventually. No child can only be helped by smacking them.

At what point does alternative punishment become a physical punishment though? You can only be awake to get a good talking to for so long before the child has been awake an unnatural amount of time.

[Sweeney]

At what point does alternative punishment become a physical punishment though? You can only be awake to get a good talking to for so long before the child has been awake an unnatural amount of time.

 

Uh, "a good talking to" isn't really a very good option either. Don't you have two children?

[Waser Lave]

They do, eventually. No child can only be helped by smacking them.

I didn't say a child could only be helped by smacking them. What I'm saying is that it should be available as an option alongside all of those other options. Of course it shouldn't be the default reaction because then it would lose its effectiveness but I think it should be there for when it is the best option in the right situation.

I blame all this soft, middle-class, nancy parenting on why kids are complete twats these days.

[Sweeney]

I didn't say a child could only be helped by smacking them. What I'm saying is that it should be available as an option alongside all of those other options. Of course it shouldn't be the default reaction because then it would lose its effectiveness but I think it should be there for when it is the best option in the right situation.

 

But there is never a situation where it is the best option in the long term.

Easiest option, sure.

Or best option for an immediate, temporary and ultimately damaging effect.

[NapisaurusRex]

Uh, "a good talking to" isn't really a very good option either. Don't you have two children?

I have three. I guess I don't really understand what you feel the alternatives are then. Most of the things I do (time out, early bedtime, keeping them too busy to be bad, and leading by example) either don't work or could turn into a physical punishment.