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Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

abortion pro-life pro-choice womens rights debate

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#51 Adam

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 10:28 PM

Whoever vots pro-life, please read freakonomics, there is a chapter that will 100% CHANGE you to pro-choice.

Also this: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Roe_v._Wade

I hit Ctrl + F and typed in freakonomics, freak and nomics and I got no results.



#52 VaultBoy

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 10:37 PM

It is a book


But basically, the legalization of abortion is 100% good, in utilitarian terms



#53 Adam

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 10:39 PM

It is a book


But basically, the legalization of abortion is 100% good, in utilitarian terms

Cool thanks for pointing out facts to me. I want to read this book now.

I hope you can sense the sarcasm in this message.

 

Wow I sounded so mean in this post.


Edited by Adam, 03 August 2013 - 10:42 PM.


#54 Gunar

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 10:50 PM

Whoever vots pro-life, please read freakonomics, there is a chapter that will 100% CHANGE you to pro-choice.

Also this: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Roe_v._Wade

Your link didn't do much convincing.  In fact, it showed that more Americans are beginning to believe that abortion shouldn't be legal under any or most circumstances (down to 37% in 2009(last recorded date)).  The woman who had the case filed is now pro-life.  Also, if it is a fundamental right under the constitution, just as the right to bear arms is, should not everyone be allowed to have a gun if they wish, just like everyone can have an abortion if they want.  I'll wait until I've read Freakonomics before saying anything about it.

 

"Roe v. Wade." Wikipedia. Wikimedia Foundation, 08 Apr. 2013. Web. 04 Aug. 2013.  (I hate citing Wikis because of the author problem)


Edited by Gunar, 03 August 2013 - 10:59 PM.


#55 VaultBoy

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 11:04 PM

Cool thanks for pointing out facts to me. I want to read this book now.

I hope you can sense the sarcasm in this message.

 

Wow I sounded so mean in this post.

Yeah you are a meanie :/

 

 

Your link didn't do much convincing.  In fact, it showed that more Americans are beginning to believe that abortion shouldn't be legal under any or most circumstances (down to 37% in 2009(last recorded date)).  The woman who had the case filed is now pro-life.  Also, if it is a fundamental right under the constitution, just as the right to bear arms is, should not everyone be allowed to have a gun if they wish, just like everyone can have an abortion if they want.  I'll wait until I've read Freakonomics before saying anything about it.

 

"Roe v. Wade." Wikipedia. Wikimedia Foundation, 08 Apr. 2013. Web. 04 Aug. 2013.  (I hate citing Wikis because of the author problem)

Please do.



#56 Gunar

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 11:06 PM

 

Please do.

I should have it finished by Monday

 

Addition: Just my two cents on your utilitarian terms of abortion, but wouldn't the moral worth of an abortion be pretty low, considering the resulting action is the death of a human being, or are you referring to the bigger picture, which is 1.3 million lives that will never be lived in the US alone every year, or that over 40 years in China there have been over 336 million abortions just because of a one-child policy?

 

Johnsen, Erika. "Report: 336 Million Abortions under China’s One-child Policy."HotAir.com. N.p., 18 Mar. 2013. Web. 04 Aug. 2013.

 

Giratikanon, Tom. "North by Northwestern." Are There Really 3,700 Abortions Each Day in the U.S.? Northwestern, 22 Jan. 2007. Web. 04 Aug. 2013.


Edited by Gunar, 03 August 2013 - 11:23 PM.


#57 VaultBoy

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 11:29 PM

Yep, it is not a pleasant thing at all. That's why contraceptives are for...

Btw when is a fetus a human being? Is there any difference? If so, what about spermatozoa and ovum, should they be treadted as humans, too? Just food for thought



#58 DonValentino

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 11:42 PM

I haven't read any of the replies for this topic, just fyi.

 

But I cant tell you my number one fear that I've always had: a deformed child. 

I'm not really caught up on birthing technology at the moment, but if there's a way for them to tell that my unborn child has autism, I will abort that child. It will have a much harder life, and I will have to pay a lot more to raise it.

I want kids more than anything else, and I want them to be healthy. 

So if there's someway for them to tell in the womb if there's something wrong, abortion. If there isn't, I'm still a supporter.



#59 Turnip

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 11:45 PM

I haven't read any of the replies for this topic, just fyi.

 

But I cant tell you my number one fear that I've always had: a deformed child. 

I'm not really caught up on birthing technology at the moment, but if there's a way for them to tell that my unborn child has autism, I will abort that child. It will have a much harder life, and I will have to pay a lot more to raise it.

I want kids more than anything else, and I want them to be healthy. 

So if there's someway for them to tell in the womb if there's something wrong, abortion. If there isn't, I'm still a supporter.

 

Dude everyone has autism to some extent/at least something wrong with them :V And what if your girlfriend/whoever wants to have the kid? You can't do shit then because you're a guy



#60 Gunar

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 11:54 PM

Technically, in the views of the Catholic Church, pleasuring yourself is a mortal sin, so in their view, I suppose so spermatozoa and ovum are humans.  However, I don't agree.  I see them as ingredients.  You don't call flour bread, do you?  But once everything is put together and mixed up just right, it becomes bread dough.  Basically, bread that just needs time and the right conditions to become full bread.  Additionally, I'm pretty sure four states voted in 2012 about the status of newly fertilized egg and its condition as a human, although I'm not sure of the outcomes of those votes. But hey, if you can look at a ten week old fetus and say that isn't a child, albiet a small one, then you go for it.


Edited by Gunar, 03 August 2013 - 11:55 PM.


#61 Romy

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 12:16 AM

Dude everyone has autism to some extent/at least something wrong with them :V And what if your girlfriend/whoever wants to have the kid? You can't do shit then because you're a guy

 

There is a condition called encephalocele where (this is a gross oversimplification) a child is born with their brain OUTSIDE of the skull.

There are 1-4 cases per 1000 births and only 1 in 5 are born alive. Of those born alive, only HALF will survive.Those that survive will have a terrible quality of life (blind, deaf, vegetables) until they die young.

 

I may not be a woman but I sure as hell will beg my wife/girlfriend to not put our child through a miserably short life.



#62 Mishelle

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 12:35 AM

Apparently you can't read and like to pull shit out of your ass. (Not meant to be a gay joke, srs)

Did I mention emergency contraception being banned anywhere in anything I've said? I guess I'll say this again...if you're responsible enough to have sex, then you're responsible enough to raise a child. Therefore if there's a proven rape then emergency contraception should be readily available. Am I talking to a brick wall?

 

I believe he's talking about the fact that emergency contraception thins the uterine lining preventing fertilized eggs from implanting into the uterus therefore ending a life if you believe fertilized eggs are human lives. Also during in vitro fertilization a doctor will implant multiple fertilized eggs into a woman in hopes that one will implant. More often than not from the hormones more than one fertilized egg will implant so the doctor will abort the extra implanted eggs and leave one which ends multiple lives.

 

 

 

 

If you think fetuses are people, why is it okay to kill them in the case that they were created through rape? You said that "every person, born or unborn has a right to live" . Rape and incest exclusions to hardline pro-life stances are illogical.

 

I honestly don't believe they actually think all fetuses are people. That line of thinking really just reveals that they just want to punish women for having consensual sex and daring to have an unexpected pregnancy. Fundamentalist Christians have done an excellent job of spreading propaganda that women who get abortions are sluts who have sex with everyone and don't use protection and just say "oh well I'll just throw down $300+ and miss work to have an abortion because it's that easy!"

 

 

Some of the points bought up in the "for" argument involve endangerment to the mothers health or rape.

What about if you knew that your baby was going to be born with a defect? Or some sort of disorder? Would you chose to abort?

 

For me, it would depend on the severity and how much the financial burden would be. I think it would better not to bring a child into the world if you can't afford to care for it.

 

I agree that it depends on the severity. If it was a life threatening illness with the possibility of death/living in extreme pain was high then yes I would abort. But if it was just something like Down's Syndrome or something that's manageable I wouldn't. 


Edited by Mishelle, 04 August 2013 - 01:10 AM.


#63 resinFiend

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 03:31 AM

I'm seeing a lot of things here about women who sleep around, or sick/malformed/non-viable fetuses, or women* who can't carry the pregnancy to term for risk of complications. I'm going to chime in with a "What about the children who already exist of women in stable relationships?"

My mother had an abortion. I am thankful for it, as is my sister. She had it when I was two, and she was dating and living with a man while she and my father weren't together. She couldn't afford a second child then, and didn't want to have the child of the man she was with. Later, they broke up, and she married my father. Our financial situation got better and my sister was born. And a few years ago, my brother. And my new sister on the way. If she had been forced to carry the other child, she likely would have died (leaving me parentless) because she was very dependent on her psychiatric medication at the time and would have committed suicide in all likelihood had a pregnancy forced her not to take it. As for the boyfriend: four years ago he murdered his entire family, all but one son. It was on the news in Florida. 



#64 MishaZheleza

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 06:37 AM

I'm seeing a lot of things here about women who sleep around, or sick/malformed/non-viable fetuses, or women* who can't carry the pregnancy to term for risk of complications. I'm going to chime in with a "What about the children who already exist of women in stable relationships?"

My mother had an abortion. I am thankful for it, as is my sister. She had it when I was two, and she was dating and living with a man while she and my father weren't together. She couldn't afford a second child then, and didn't want to have the child of the man she was with. Later, they broke up, and she married my father. Our financial situation got better and my sister was born. And a few years ago, my brother. And my new sister on the way. If she had been forced to carry the other child, she likely would have died (leaving me parentless) because she was very dependent on her psychiatric medication at the time and would have committed suicide in all likelihood had a pregnancy forced her not to take it. As for the boyfriend: four years ago he murdered his entire family, all but one son. It was on the news in Florida. 

My aunt did the same thing, considers herself Christian. I'm not one for religion, but the way she put it,

 

"If my God is truly all loving and forgiving, he can forgive me for keeping this child out of his natural life on Earth so he won't have to endure what I endure everyday, and he will love his soul in the next life as I will love him everyday til the day I die."

 

Food for thought I suppose.



#65 Gunar

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 07:19 AM

I honestly don't believe they actually think all fetuses are people. That line of thinking really just reveals that they just want to punish women for having consensual sex and daring to have an unexpected pregnancy. Fundamentalist Christians have done an excellent job of spreading propaganda that women who get abortions are sluts who have sex with everyone and don't use protection and just say "oh well I'll just throw down $300+ and miss work to have an abortion because it's that easy!"


I'm atheist, and I don't listen to the majority of things Christians come up with, but this is one point I am actually on their side for.  I just can't look at a fetus only ten weeks old and pretend that isn't a child.  What would you say this is?
 
Spoiler


#66 Waser Lave

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 07:24 AM

I'm atheist, and I don't listen to the majority of things Christians come up with, but this is one point I am actually on their side for.  I just can't look at a fetus only ten weeks old and pretend that isn't a child.  What would you say this is?
 

Spoiler

 
I'm pretty certain that's not a 10 week old foetus given that they apparently don't develop hair pigmentation until after the second trimester.

#67 Mishelle

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 07:40 AM

Yeah that's not a 10 week old fetus a 10 week old fetus looks like this. And the majority of abortions are done within the first 8 weeks.

 

index.jpg


Edited by Mishelle, 04 August 2013 - 07:41 AM.


#68 Gunar

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 07:46 AM

 
I'm pretty certain that's not a 10 week old foetus given that they apparently don't develop hair pigmentation until after the second trimester.

Google doesn't have the most exact images, but if you want, I'm sure I could find another.

 

Here is the link to a video of an 8-week old baby, and the majority of abortions are performed 8 weeks or later(56.8% according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s abortion statistics for 2009):

http://www.ehd.org/m...s.php?mov_id=44



#69 Star86

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 07:49 AM

I'm Pro-choice. People should be able to do as they wish with their own bodies.

 

What would hardcore pro-lifers plan to do with a pregnant woman who doesn't want the child she is carrying?. Lock her up for the duration of her pregnancy, then force her to care for a child she didn't want or may be unable to care properly for, for whatever reason eg. mentally, financially etc... 

Because that wouldn't be remotley detrimental to either of the lives involved  :sarcasm_re: 

 

Also in countries where all non therapeutic abortion (therapeutic abortbtion: a legally induced abortion for medical reasons (as when the mother's life is threatened, she is a victim of rape, the child's quality of life would be severely affected by genetic disease or birth defects) is illegal (there are far too many to list but some examples are Guatemala, Angola, Bangladesh) Women will go for non medical/backstreet abortions that may not be preformed by someone qualified or even somewhere hygenic!. Where the risk of complications including death is high.



#70 KyloRen

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 07:49 AM

Has no one thought of what would happen if abortion was illegal?

They would still happen. Women seeking abortions, for what ever reason; financial, rape, incest, danger to their health, baby wouldn't live, will still find a way to abort. Weather it be though the old methods of coat hangers (which are extremely dangerous to use), or though other means.

Making abortion illegal wont stop them. It'll just push them into the shadows (back alley abortions).



#71 Waser Lave

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 07:49 AM

Google doesn't have the most exact images, but if you want, I'm sure I could find another.
 
Here is the link to a video of an 8-week old baby, and the majority of abortions are performed 8 weeks or later(56.8% according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s abortion statistics for 2009):
http://www.ehd.org/m...s.php?mov_id=44


http://www.ehd.org/m....php?mov_id=212

If you look at that it looks absolutely nothing like the one in the picture you posted earlier. I doubt a foetus would go from that to almost fully formed facial features with pigmented hair in 2 weeks... That earlier picture I'm guessing is just one that anti-abortion people use as a shock tactic, it looks like it would come from a much later abortion (which would probably be illegal already anyway).

#72 Mishelle

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 07:51 AM

Google doesn't have the most exact images, but if you want, I'm sure I could find another.

 

Here is the link to a video of an 8-week old baby, and the majority of abortions are performed 8 weeks or later(56.8% according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s abortion statistics for 2009):

http://www.ehd.org/m...s.php?mov_id=44

 

IB-induced-abortion-c2.gif

 

I really can't believe we're giving basic biology lessons on Codex.

 

http://www.guttmache...d_abortion.html


Edited by Mishelle, 04 August 2013 - 07:56 AM.


#73 Bone

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:00 AM

Apparently you can't read and like to pull shit out of your ass. (Not meant to be a gay joke, srs)

Did I mention emergency contraception being banned anywhere in anything I've said? I guess I'll say this again...if you're responsible enough to have sex, then you're responsible enough to raise a child. Therefore if there's a proven rape then emergency contraception should be readily available. Am I talking to a brick wal

 

Please direct yourself to Mishelle's post. I didn't think I would have to spell out exactly what emergency contraception is for you to understand.


I honestly don't believe they actually think all fetuses are people. That line of thinking really just reveals that they just want to punish women for having consensual sex and daring to have an unexpected pregnancy. Fundamentalist Christians have done an excellent job of spreading propaganda that women who get abortions are sluts who have sex with everyone and don't use protection and just say "oh well I'll just throw down $300+ and miss work to have an abortion because it's that easy!"

 

Agreed. I think the most reasonable standard for determining the start life is the measurement of brain waves on an EEG.

 

The "it looks like a people so it is a people" trope is dictated by emotion, not reason.



#74 Adam

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:00 AM

Please direct yourself to Mishelle's post. I didn't think I would have to spell out exactly what emergency contraception is for you to understand.

My definition of emergency contraception is the plan b pill.



#75 Star86

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:04 AM

Apparently you can't read and like to pull shit out of your ass. (Not meant to be a gay joke, srs)

Did I mention emergency contraception being banned anywhere in anything I've said? I guess I'll say this again...if you're responsible enough to have sex, then you're responsible enough to raise a child. Therefore if there's a proven rape then emergency contraception should be readily available. Am I talking to a brick wall?

Legally rape is notoriously hard to prove. As it is usually one persons word against anothers.

Emergency contraception needs to be taken within 72 hours, but the sooner the better.

So how could the rape be "proven" within this time frame?. 


Edited by Star86, 04 August 2013 - 08:05 AM.



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