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Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

abortion pro-life pro-choice womens rights debate

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#76 Gunar

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:12 AM

 

 

The "it looks like a people so it is a people" trope is dictated by emotion, not reason.

How many things in our society occurred because of emotion instead of reason?  Oh yeah, the exact website which we are talking on was created not because there was a reason to cheat on Neopets, but because people wanted to do that.

 

http://www.ehd.org/m....php?mov_id=212

If you look at that it looks absolutely nothing like the one in the picture you posted earlier. I doubt a foetus would go from that to almost fully formed facial features with pigmented hair in 2 weeks... That earlier picture I'm guessing is just one that anti-abortion people use as a shock tactic, it looks like it would come from a much later abortion (which would probably be illegal already anyway).

 I already said that wasn't an exact picture, so to call it out again was to further prove it to whom exactly?

 

IB-induced-abortion-c2.gif

 

I really can't believe we're giving basic biology lessons on Codex.

 

http://www.guttmache...d_abortion.html

That was in 2006, compared to my 2009 data;therefore, I am more accurate than you.


Edited by Gunar, 04 August 2013 - 08:13 AM.


#77 Bone

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:13 AM

My definition of emergency contraception is the plan b pill.

 

Sorry, I didn't know we were working with your specific, limited definitions.

 

Also, you never responded--you think a zygote is a person?



#78 Mishelle

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:14 AM

How many things in our society occurred because of emotion instead of reason?  Oh yeah, the exact website which we are talking on was created not because there was a reason to cheat on Neopets, but because people wanted to do that.

 

 I already said that wasn't an exact picture, so to call it out again was to further prove it to whom exactly?

 

That was in 2006, compared to my 2009 data;therefore, I am more accurate than you.

 

No you misinterpreted your own data. 

 

In 2009, most (64.0%) abortions were performed at ≤8 weeks' gestation, and 91.7% were performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation. Few abortions (7.0%) were performed at 14–20 weeks' gestation, and even fewer (1.3%) were performed at ≥21 weeks' gestation.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/m...ml/ss6108a1.htm



#79 Adam

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:15 AM

The "it looks like a people so it is a people" trope is dictated by emotion, not reason.

Are we going with biological reason to base our beliefs...

Aren't a vagina and a penis mainly supposed to function as reproductive organs? So I guess seeing as a man and a man cannot biologically have a child with each other, then being "gay" is also a trope based off of emotion and not reason.

And the reason for allowing gay people to love eachother (rightfully so) is based off of the freedom of LOVING (emotion) whoever you want to.


Edited by Adam, 04 August 2013 - 08:17 AM.


#80 Bone

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:15 AM

How many things in our society occurred because of emotion instead of reason?  Oh yeah, the exact website which we are talking on was created not because there was a reason to cheat on Neopets, but because people wanted to do that.

 

Being a member of Neocodex is not analogous to rejecting a reasonable scientific definition for the start of human life, instead infringing on the reproductive rights of women on the basis your religious and/or emotional beliefs.



#81 Waser Lave

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:17 AM

I already said that wasn't an exact picture, so to call it out again was to further prove it to whom exactly?


Sorry, I just don't really equate 'not exact' with 'nowhere near reality'.

#82 Bone

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:22 AM

Are we going with biological reason to base our beliefs...

Aren't a vagina and a penis mainly supposed to function as reproductive organs? So I guess seeing as a man and a man cannot biologically have a child with each other, then being "gay" is also a trope based off of emotion and not reason.

 

Why are you so fixated on my sexual orientation? There are plenty of theoretical biological explanations for homosexuality, if you're really interested I would recommend a google search.

 

I don't care how you base your personal beliefs. But a scientific basis should be preferred over an emotional one in matters of public health policy, particularly when choosing the unscientific approach involves infringing on reproductive rights.



#83 Jess

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:24 AM

Whoever vots pro-life, please read freakonomics, there is a chapter that will 100% CHANGE you to pro-choice.
Also this: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Roe_v._Wade

Cool thanks for pointing out facts to me. I want to read this book now.
I hope you can sense the sarcasm in this message.

This really is a great book and there is also a documentary that goes with it. While it's interesting and I can see the logic in it, I don't feel like the chapter by itself is enough to make a drastic change from pro-choice to pro-life. This book shows a relation between abortion rates and crime rates... specifically that if unwanted children aren't born, then they won't cause crime later in life.

#84 Gunar

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:27 AM

Sorry, I just don't really equate 'not exact' with 'nowhere near reality'.

I assume it is still an actual picture of an aborted baby, but some weeks off from what the hosting website claimed it to be.  My actual apologies for not researching that in more detail.

 

No you misinterpreted your own data. 

 

In 2009, most (64.0%) abortions were performed at ≤8 weeks' gestation, and 91.7% were performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation. Few abortions (7.0%) were performed at 14–20 weeks' gestation, and even fewer (1.3%) were performed at ≥21 weeks' gestation.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/m...ml/ss6108a1.htm

http://www.lifesiten...-they-accurate/

This website lists percentages in terms more exact week terms.  

  • 6 weeks or less 35.2%
  • 7-8 weeks: 34.6%
  • Over 9 weeks: 31%
  • Over 13 weeks: 10% (down from 12% a few years ago)
  • Over 22 weeks: 1.3%

And assuming that 20% of abortions happen in the 7th week, and only 14.6% in the 8th week, which I'm not sure about (to assume is to make an ass out of you and me), then the majority still lies in 8 or more weeks at a total of 56.9%



#85 Mishelle

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:32 AM

 

http://www.lifesiten...-they-accurate/

This website lists percentages in terms more exact week terms.  

  • 6 weeks or less 35.2%
  • 7-8 weeks: 34.6%
  • Over 9 weeks: 31%
  • Over 13 weeks: 10% (down from 12% a few years ago)
  • Over 22 weeks: 1.3%

And assuming that 20% of abortions happen in the 7th week, and only 14.6% in the 8th week, which I'm not sure about (to assume is to make an ass out of you and me), then the majority still lies in 8 or more weeks at a total of 56.9%

 

You quoted the statistics from the CDC. I gave you statistics from the CDC then you give me some statistics on a biased website? Stop. That's not what the CDC says all that is blatantly made up. 

 

We're working on a scale of 100% ok? 

 

35.2%+34.6 %=  70% that's the number of abortions performed less than or equal to 8 weeks. 

Over nine weeks is 31% according to them. 

Then they add the 10% and the 1.3% which is a part of the 31%. Still significantly less than the number below 8 weeks.


Edited by Mishelle, 04 August 2013 - 08:39 AM.


#86 Waser Lave

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:34 AM

http://www.lifesiten...-they-accurate/
This website lists percentages in terms more exact week terms.

  • 6 weeks or less 35.2%
  • 7-8 weeks: 34.6%
  • Over 9 weeks: 31%
  • Over 13 weeks: 10% (down from 12% a few years ago)
  • Over 22 weeks: 1.3%
And assuming that 20% of abortions happen in the 7th week, and only 14.6% in the 8th week, which I'm not sure about (to assume is to make an ass out of you and me), then the majority still lies in 8 or more weeks at a total of 56.9%


I'm not entirely sure what is pertinent about the 8 week point but surely if 31% take place over 9 weeks and you assume 14.6% are in the 8th week then that adds up to around 45%?

#87 Gunar

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:38 AM

I'm not entirely sure what is pertinent about the 8 week point but surely if 31% take place over 9 weeks and you assume 14.6% are in the 8th week then that adds up to around 45%?

Woops.  I need to read more carefully.  I was thinking about every separate percentage as a different time.  I added them all up.  My mistake.  And true.  Why should the 8 week point matter, because most babies would reach that point without abortion?


Edited by Gunar, 04 August 2013 - 08:40 AM.


#88 Adam

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:43 AM

Why are you so fixated on my sexual orientation? There are plenty of theoretical biological explanations for homosexuality, if you're really interested I would recommend a google search.

 

I don't care how you base your personal beliefs. But a scientific basis should be preferred over an emotional one in matters of public health policy, particularly when choosing the unscientific approach involves infringing on reproductive rights.

I guess you didn't get the point I was trying to make. I'm going by your idea of using reason and not emotion to justify what you believe in. I'm just trying to put it into terms you may be able to relate to. Biologically (homosexual) couples base their attraction off of emotion & physical aesthetics and not what is biologically intended for their reproductive organs. I'm just using your logic here...

 

biology (reproductivity) & emotion (love)

 

A zygote is a forming human being, so yes I will consider a zygote as human. 


Edited by Adam, 04 August 2013 - 08:47 AM.


#89 Mishelle

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:46 AM

Woops.  I need to read more carefully.  I was thinking about every separate percentage as a different time.  I added them all up.  My mistake.  And true.  Why should the 8 week point matter, because most babies would reach that point without abortion?

 

Not true. 

 

http://www.webmd.com...ncy-miscarriage

 

About half of zygotes make it to become a recognized pregnancy, the other half end in a natural abortion. Zygotes are very fragile.


Edited by Mishelle, 04 August 2013 - 08:48 AM.


#90 Gunar

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:49 AM

Not true. 

 

http://www.webmd.com...ncy-miscarriage

 

About half of zygotes make it to become a recognized pregnancy, the other half end in a natural abortion. Zygotes are very fragile.

As many as, meaning a maximum of 50%



#91 Mishelle

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:51 AM

50% isn't most. It's half. And this is just a prediction because there's no way to accurately measure how many natural miscarriages a woman has without a missed period. 


Edited by Mishelle, 04 August 2013 - 08:52 AM.


#92 Bone

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:57 AM

I guess you didn't get the point I was trying to make. I'm going by your idea of using reason and not emotion to justify what you believe in. I'm just trying to put it into terms you may be able to relate to. Biologically (homosexual) couples base their attraction off of emotion & physical attractoin and not what is biologically intended for their reproductive organs. I'm just using your logic here...

 

biology (reproductivity) & emotion (love)

 

A zygote is a forming human being, so yes I will consider a zygote as human. 

 

Is this an iargue moment? Homosexuality wouldn't be maintained in human and animal populations at a relatively high frequency if it was inherently maladaptive. Are you trying to say straight couples sit down and reason through the genealogical consequences before having sex? It seems that you're unfamiliar with the concept, but plenty of straight people never have children and only have non-procreational sex.

 

The fact stands that matters of public health policy should be addressed scientifically. Abortion policy should therefore be based on a scientific definition of personhood.

 

You can be human without being a person. A corpse is a dead human, but it's not a person. Zygotes are forming humans, but I'd argue that they're not people.


Edited by Bone, 04 August 2013 - 08:57 AM.


#93 Adam

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 09:00 AM

Is this an iargue moment? Homosexuality wouldn't be maintained in human and animal populations at a relatively high frequency if it was inherently maladaptive. Are you trying to say straight couples sit down and reason through the genealogical consequences before having sex? It seems that you're unfamiliar with the concept, but plenty of straight people never have children and only have non-procreational sex.

 

The fact stands that matters of public health policy should be addressed scientifically. Abortion policy should therefore be based on a scientific definition of personhood.

 

You can be human without being a person. A corpse is a dead human, but it's not a person. Zygotes are forming humans, but I'd argue that they're not people.

Fair enough, you made a good point. A zygote is not yet a human (that's what the gestation period is for), but it is still life. Abortion terminates life, which should be protected.



#94 Gunar

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 09:02 AM

50% isn't most. It's half. And this is just a prediction because there's no way to accurately measure how many natural miscarriages a woman has without a missed period. 

How do you define as many as then?  Personally, I think of it as the highest possible estimation when an exact count is impossible or near impossible to be made.



#95 Bone

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 09:05 AM

Fair enough, you made a good point. A zygote is not yet a human (that's what the gestation period is for), but it is still life. Abortion terminates life, which should be protected.

 

Why should 'life' that's not yet a person be protected at the expense of the reproductive rights of pregnant women who would like an abortion? Taking it to the next level, why should this 'life' be protected at the expense of the unwanted person that it will eventually become?



#96 Adam

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 09:12 AM

Why should 'life' that's not yet a person be protected at the expense of the reproductive rights of pregnant women who would like an abortion? Taking it to the next level, why should this 'life' be protected at the expense of the unwanted person that it will eventually become?

I've already given my beliefs on abortion in cases of consensual (frequently careless) sex on both parties sides vs a situation of rape and/or incest. I know you're going to ask me why I believe one situation is grounds for abortion and the other is not. Honestly it's a gray area that I can't exactly explain other than what I've been repeating this whole time. "If you're responsible enough to have sex....blah blah blah" I'm so tired of typing that lol.


Edited by Adam, 04 August 2013 - 09:20 AM.


#97 Mishelle

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 09:17 AM

How do you define as many as then?  Personally, I think of it as the highest possible estimation when an exact count is impossible or near impossible to be made.

 

I define as many as as the closest possible estimate. But we're getting off topic here so I'll stop.

 

 

Fair enough, you made a good point. A zygote is not yet a human (that's what the gestation period is for), but it is still life. Abortion terminates life, which should be protected.

 

Do you think it's wrong for a woman undergoing in vitro fertilization to abort multiple zygote implantations because she only wants one child?


Edited by Mishelle, 04 August 2013 - 09:20 AM.


#98 Gunar

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 09:18 AM

Why should 'life' that's not yet a person be protected at the expense of the reproductive rights of pregnant women who would like an abortion? Taking it to the next level, why should this 'life' be protected at the expense of the unwanted person that it will eventually become?

Because of every day that might happen in the "life" of the person.  To quote Doctor Who, "The good things don't always soften the bad things, but vice-versa, the bad things don't necessarily spoil the good things and make them unimportant."  



#99 Bone

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 09:25 AM

Because of every day that might happen in the "life" of the person.  To quote Doctor Who, "The good things don't always soften the bad things, but vice-versa, the bad things don't necessarily spoil the good things and make them unimportant."  

 

I'm glad you think life is nice and cheery, but that doesn't give you license to ignore the reproductive rights of women and force them to continue a pregnancy.


I've already given my beliefs on abortion in cases of consensual (frequently careless) sex on both parties sides vs a situation of rape and/or incest. I know you're going to ask me why I believe one situation is grounds for abortion and the other is not. Honestly it's a gray area that I can't exactly explain other than what I've been repeating this whole time. "If you're responsible enough to have sex....blah blah blah" I'm so tired of typing that lol.

 

I'll be happy to continue the debate as soon as your can articulate why your beliefs about responsibility should determine the legality of abortion. I don't accept "she had it coming".



#100 Adam

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 09:27 AM

I'm glad you think life is nice and cheery, but that doesn't give you license to ignore the reproductive rights of women and force them to continue a pregnancy.


 

I'll be happy to continue the debate as soon as your can articulate why your beliefs about responsibility should determine the legality of abortion. I don't accept "she had it coming".

It's (roughly) the same principle as "you do the crime, you do the time." 




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