478 replies to this topic

[Bone]

It's (roughly) the same principle as "you do the crime, you do the time." 

 

What does this principle accomplish, beyond a ruined life and the loss of any sense of control over her body for the unwilling young mother and the misery of growing up unwanted, or in an orphanage, for the child? Sounds like it makes for a lot of shitty situations, and a shittier society, all in the name of some perverse punishment for women who don't use birth control.

[Adam]

What does this principle accomplish, beyond a ruined life and the loss of any sense of control over her body for the unwilling young mother and the misery of growing up unwanted, or in an orphanage, for the child? Sounds like it makes for a lot of shitty situations, and a shittier society, all in the name of some perverse punishment for women who don't use birth control.

I wasn't aware that responsibility is a punishment.

 

"With great power comes great responsibility." That power is procreation. 

Edited by Adam, 04 August 2013 - 09:37 AM.

[Gunar]

I'm glad you think life is nice and cheery, but that doesn't give you license to ignore the reproductive rights of women and force them to continue a pregnancy.

 

Sorry, but I thought there was something in the quote about bad days too?  Or was I just imagining that?

[VaultBoy]

Pro-choice ftw, seriously, stop arguing

[Adam]

Pro-choice ftw, seriously, stop arguing

it's called a debate, inside of the debate section. What a shocker.

[NapisaurusRex]

it's called a debate, inside of the debate section. What a shocker.

Cut him some slack. It's the guy who created "What is more important when looking at a man: his face (e.g. handsome) or his body (e.g. muscular, athletic)?" as a debate.

[MishaZheleza]

Pro-choice ftw, seriously, stop arguing

I didn't create the thread, HEY GUISE PRO-CHOICE HQ HEEEEEEREEEE, DOWN WIT -LYFE.

 

I created Pro-Life or Pro-Choice, to spark educated debate, which so far has gone pretty well. It's not arguing, it's a debate I created on here out of curiosity. I'm Pro-Choice, because everyone should have a choice on what to do with their body. Nobody here is an extremist and going to shoot and bomb anybody else, it's a civilized debate

[Mishelle]

I wasn't aware that responsibility is a punishment.

 

"With great power comes great responsibility." That power is procreation. 

 

You can't use children as a punishment, they have to grow up to become functioning adults some day. It may be possible to force a woman through pregnancy but you certainly can't force her to raise a child, raise them the right way and provide them with all their needs. You're right, procreation is very powerful and that's why I believe that it's more responsible to have people who WANT children to procreate rather than some irresponsible person with no resources who's going to raise some shitty human being.

[Adam]

You can't use children as a punishment, they have to grow up to become functioning adults some day. It may be possible to force a woman through pregnancy but you certainly can't force her to raise a child, raise them the right way and provide them with all their needs. You're right, procreation is very powerful and that's why I believe that it's more responsible to have people who WANT children to procreate rather than some irresponsible person with no resources who's going to raise some shitty human being.

I'm a firm believer in the phrase "You've made your bed, now sleep in it." I don't think I've implied (I hope I haven't actually, cause that's far from what I'm saying) that children should be a punishment for having an oops moment. Not everyone who is raised in substandard living conditions turns into a waste of space. Maybe shitty parenting and hellion children somehow share a correlating demographic, but I don't really think there's statistics on the subject. I think people need to understand that just because you're raised under shitty conditions, that doesn't automatically put you at a social/economical/health disadvantage. I've seen first hand what a shitty parent looks like (my father) but I'm doing great and I've learned from his mistakes, what not to do. I've also seen my aunt neglect my cousin and because of the neglect, my cousin is an extremely independent, smart and viable part of society. I just don't like the generalization that shitty parenting automatically = useless offspring.

 

I feel like this should be a separate debate xD

Edited by Adam, 04 August 2013 - 11:46 AM.

[Mishelle]

I'm a firm believer in the phrase "You've made your bed, now sleep in it." I don't think I've implied (I hope I haven't actually, cause that's far from what I'm saying) that children should be a punishment for having an oops moment. Not everyone who is raised in substandard living conditions turns into a waste of space. Maybe shitty parenting and hellion children somehow share a correlating demographic, but I don't really think there's statistics on the subject. I think people need to understand that just because you're raised under shitty conditions, that doesn't automatically put you at a social/economical/health disadvantage. I've seen first hand what a shitty parent looks like (my father) but I'm doing great and I've learned from his mistakes, what not to do. I've also seen my aunt neglect my cousin and because of the neglect, my cousin is an extremely independent, smart and viable part of society. I just don't like the generalization that shitty parenting automatically = useless offspring.

 

I feel like you have implied that they're a punishment by equating having sex to doing a crime and having a baby as "doing the time". I didn't say that being raised in substandard living conditions makes for a shitty person, but not being raised at all by no one is going to be a problem you can't dispute that. My mom loved me so she took the time to watch me, provide me with necessities, teach me how to read, and not be abusive or neglectful. There are kids who didn't have the luxury that I did and they had a lot of problems because of it both emotional and behavioral. I've seen kids sent to school wearing the same clothes for a week. Kids being beaten, left in the house with no food while the dad is gone and the mom is out doing what she wants. I know girls who were pimped out by their own mom and kids who were abandoned altogether. It's not fair at all to say "oh well you had unprotected sex so you have a kid you don't want and you're not going to give adequate care to." Prime example Jenelle from Teen Mom. She had a kid she didn't want, she never stepped up to the plate to take care of that kid the mom does and she's an alcoholic. Could he grow up and become a well adjusted person? Sure, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to have kids grow up in better living conditions. You're being emotional and trying to punish women for having sex and I get the impression that you have underlying issues with female sexual independence. My mom had 2 abortions before me because she was a teenager and wasn't ready. When she had me she WANTED to be a mother and I believe I grew up better of because of it. If she hadn't had abortions I wouldn't even exist actually.

 

Also you never answered my question about in vitro fertilization.

Edited by Mishelle, 04 August 2013 - 11:56 AM.

[Rohirric]

First off, I'm adopted, so I'm all for adoption.  At the same time, I basically won the Adoption Lottery:  I was born a healthy, caucasian female, and as such, there were a hundred people who were fighting to get me before I was even out of the womb.  That isn't the case for a lot of other children in minorities who, according to statistics, will spend their entire childhood in foster care.  A lot of pro-life people like to preach about adoption, but the reality is that most kiddos who enter the foster system never leave it.  If every person who preached about the joys of adoption stopped having kids and adopted the kiddos who needed homes, then there wouldn't be so much strain on mothers who have to make the choice between adoption and abortion.

 

Secondly, denying a woman a right to an abortion is basically telling her she has less bodily autonomy than a corpse.  No one is allowed to do anything to a corpse without written consent:  You can't harvest organs (even if doing so might save someone's life), and you have to prepare the body as specified by the dead person, or, in the case that the corpse didn't leave a will (and therefore can't speak for themselves), their children or spouse must speak for them in their interest.  While it is true that a fetus is a living creature, it is living off of its mother, its host, and because of her consent for it to remain there.   I believe it is wrong to force a woman by law to give another living being consent to use her body. 

 

What we have to remember is that women get abortions for a lot of reasons:  The fetus may not be viable.  The child may be severely handicapped, and would be living a life in pain outside of the womb if not aborted.  The woman herself might be endangering herself by carrying the child.  One of my best friends had an abortion, and her situation was dire. She had a horrible muscular disorder which, when untreated during pregnancy (she didn't have money for treatment at the time) meant there was a good chance her body would abort the fetus itself, or she would run the risk of suffocating in the night due to the effect the disease would have on her mouth and neck muscles.  That aside, she couldn't afford to take care of a baby, and she couldn't risk her own life going through a pregnancy.  In her case, abortion was really the only option.

 

Legalized abortions could actually save lives (because people are going to continue to have them, whether they are legal or not), and just because someone is pro-choice doesn't mean they're pro-abortion.  I myself could never have an abortion, but I respect women enough to trust them to make their own decisions when it comes to their own body and their autonomy.

Edited by Rohirric, 23 November 2013 - 11:43 AM.

[Caliwag]

I myself could never have an abortion, but I respect women enough to trust them to make their own decisions when it comes to their own body and their autonomy.

Yeah, this is me. I'm pro-choice but I don't think I would personally have an abortion unless the fetus was conceived non-consensually.

 

But I also think abortion's pretty sad, snuffing out the potential for a life and all. It's still the woman's choice and if she thinks she needs one then she should get one, but sad. The fetus isn't a person yet.

 

When people talk about aborting handicapped fetuses, I cringe. I wonder how much of a handicap people will think is "too much". Doesn't change my stance, I (perhaps naively) believe that most people would keep a child with mild-moderate handicaps, I would.

[Sweeney]

When people talk about aborting handicapped fetuses, I cringe. I wonder how much of a handicap people will think is "too much". Doesn't change my stance, I (perhaps naively) believe that most people would keep a child with mild-moderate handicaps, I would.

Aborting a handicapped foetus is not the same as killing a handicapped person. A foetus is literally a bunch of cells, with no autonomy whatsoever. If you know that that bunch of cells is destined to grow into a life of extraordinary pain, suffering and hardship, is it not kinder to stop it from ever beginning?

[Caliwag]

Aborting a handicapped foetus is not the same as killing a handicapped person. A foetus is literally a bunch of cells, with no autonomy whatsoever. If you know that that bunch of cells is destined to grow into a life of extraordinary pain, suffering and hardship, is it not kinder to stop it from ever beginning?

I get that, but I meant more that I don't want to abort a fetus with, say Downs or cerebral palsy or something that is not necessarily going to make them suffer. They would cost the families more to care for the child and the child would stand out as being different, but those are mild disorders and people with them can live fairly normal lives.

 

I don't mean like anencephaly or something where, if it were born, the child wouldn't live long and wouldn't have much of a life anyway.

 

It's not my place to draw a line where a fetus is too disordered to live anyway, that's just kind of my opinion on how handicapped my fetus would have to be to abort. I don't mean to be judgmental towards anybody else.

[Rohirric]

@Caliwag:  One of my mom's friends got an abortion because her child would have been born with no limbs.  Her extended family more or less disowned her because they believed that she was "executing a child for being different".  I think we would all like to believe we could be that parent who could take care of a child with special needs, but I've worked in a lot of classrooms with children with special needs (I'm talking severe autism to severe handicaps, children needing to be on ventilators 24/7, etc), and I can tell you that I'm not sure I'd be able to do it.  Being a parent for one of these kids is a 24/7 job with no days off and no letting up.  Your life is changed forever, and that's not something some parents can adjust to...And it's no good for anyone involved if a child is born into a family that won't take care of them and resents them for the way they were born.

Edited by Rohirric, 23 November 2013 - 11:58 AM.

[Sweeney]

I get that, but I meant more that I don't want to abort a fetus with, say Downs or cerebral palsy or something that is not necessarily going to make them suffer.

Have you ever worked with children or adults that have Downs Syndrome or cerebral palsy?

[Caliwag]

Have you ever worked with children or adults that have Downs Syndrome or cerebral palsy?

Worked? No. Lived? Yes. My brother has cerebral palsy. I'll admit that he is very lucky; he's of average intelligence, less severe physical handicaps (he goes to the US paralympic soccer training camp about every six months ^{_{and gets to travel the world that bastard}}). It's not all sunshine and rainbows (medical bills, being different), still he's the nicest, happiest guy I know.

 

I'm not naive enough to think that if I had a child with this disorder, I would be so lucky to have a kid that "normal". I know that people have very good reasons for aborting fetuses with disorders, and I still totally support their decision. I would abort if I thought the disorder was major and I didn't think I could give my child a good quality of life. But I wouldn't for just any disorder. It's naive to think that I could understand all the difficulties of caring for a child with special needs, yes, but I'm not trying to pass judgment on anybody who chooses to do something different.

[Sweeney]

Worked? No. Lived? Yes. My brother has cerebral palsy. I'll admit that he is very lucky; he's of average intelligence, less severe physical handicaps (he goes to the US paralympic soccer training camp about every six months ^{_{and gets to travel the world that bastard}}). It's not all sunshine and rainbows (medical bills, being different), still he's the nicest, happiest guy I know.
 
I'm not naive enough to think that if I had a child with this disorder, I would be so lucky to have a kid that "normal". I know that people have very good reasons for aborting fetuses with disorders, and I still totally support their decision. I would abort if I thought the disorder was major and I didn't think I could give my child a good quality of life. But I wouldn't for just any disorder. It's naive to think that I could understand all the difficulties of caring for a child with special needs, yes, but I'm not trying to pass judgment on anybody who chooses to do something different.

Well, that's fair enough. It sounds like your brother, as you said, is very lucky. It's obvious that your relationship with your brother influences your opinions on the matter, and it'd be hard for me to make further comment given that I don't know anything about your situation.

[Cinnamon]

Pro-choice. Anyone deserves the chance to decide wether they want to be parents or not imo.

[luvsmyncis]

Future parents should take responsibility for their future child. By aborting, they essentially kill a person because the future parents didn't want to deal with them. If it was a question of rape however, then they should have a choice to do what they want.

Do you think a married heterosexual couple who have no plans to have children should abstain from sex? What if they are using protection to prevent pregnancy, but it occurs anyway? In your opinion, the woman should carry this accident to full term, creating unwilling parents? How is that being responsible?

Why should only rape victims have a choice to abort her unwanted child? It's only okay to get rid of a pregnancy if the sex that caused it was non-consensual? That's disgusting. Don't even get me started on what women have to go through to prove they were raped. Because their word isn't good enough most of the time.

It comes down to this: You don't get to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body. How does a woman aborting an unwanted pregnancy affect you in anyway? It doesn't. Are you going to raise that unwanted child? I didn't think so. Everyone who does not have a vagina, listen up. It's none of your business if someone aborts their unwanted pregnancy. At least... it isn't until you've gone and accidentally knocked up your girlfriend.

[Sweeney]

Future parents should take responsibility for their future child. By aborting, they essentially kill a person because the future parents didn't want to deal with them. If it was a question of rape however, then they should have a choice to do what they want.

No. By aborting they kill a few cells. It's functionally exactly the same as excising a mole, or removing your appendix.

[Turnip]

Future parents should take responsibility for their future child. By aborting, they essentially kill a person because the future parents didn't want to deal with them. If it was a question of rape however, then they should have a choice to do what they want.

 

"Didn't want to deal with them"? Because raising a kid is simple right? Easy on the body and mind and on top of that really cheap. Every single person who is having sex for pleasure is totally financially stable and they're in a position where they can raise their kid. Everyone is willing to go through pregnancy, or they're mentally able to handle having a child and/or the mother's physically healthy enough to go through it. Health complications that could seriously harm the mother/baby/both but could be avoided through abortions obviously don't exist right? And like Punk said, you do know that even if the people are using contraception they don't always work 100% of the time. They don't want kids and they're doing what they can to avoid them, but the condom split or the lady accidentally forgot to take her pill or just small things like that. And not wanting to deal with them is a valid enough excuse to not want kids though! They're not for everyone :V

[Nymh]

I get really sick of hearing (or reading) people say that if you don't want to have kids, you shouldn't have sex.

 

Newsflash: Sex is not just about procreation.

 

Sex is enjoyable, sex can be an important part of a loving relationship, sex is a huge stress reliever, sex is good for your health...

 

Saying that you should only have sex when and if you are ready and willing to raise the potential resulting child is tantamount to telling everyone that they can only have sex when they are trying to have a baby.

 

Gay?  No sex for you.

Old?  No sex for you, unless you're an old man and you're having sex with a young woman to impregnate her.

Barren?  No sex for you.

Married to someone of the opposite sex?  You might think you're getting by on this one but NO.  Only if you are ready to have a baby.  If you've had all the babies you want to have, aren't ready for kids yet, or don't want to have any kids - no sex for you.

 

Yeah, sorry, but no.

[Frizzle]

What about if you fuck a bird anally and the cum drips down into the vag causing pregnancy?

Think about it

[Sweeney]

To all of you: if killing a baby after it's birth is immoral, then why do you say killing a baby before it's born ok?

Before it is born, it is not a baby.

(Note: I am drastically oversimplifying for the sake of brevity.)