478 replies to this topic

[Turnip]

To all of you: if killing a baby after it's birth is immoral, then why do you say killing a baby before it's born ok?

 

Look:

No. By aborting they kill a few cells. It's functionally exactly the same as excising a mole, or removing your appendix.

 

It's literally just some cells that aren't even human yet :V If you look into things you normally get abortions before the cells start growing into an actual human. It's just like washing your face and removing the cells from it! You can get abortions past the (around) 12 week mark/once the baby has grown into a more human-like thing but that's if it'll affect the baby and/or mother's health. Women can die from giving birth you know!

[Elindoril]

An embryo is something that will develop into a baby. Kill it and the baby won't be developed. Don't kill it and it will become a baby. Aborting an embryo is preventing a baby from being developed, hence basically killing a baby.

It hasn't even developed into a baby. You can't kill what doesn't exist yet.

[Turnip]

An embryo is something that will develop into a baby. Kill it and the baby won't be developed. Don't kill it and it will become a baby. Aborting an embryo is preventing a baby from being developed, hence basically killing a baby.

 

And women create eggs every month that also hold life (but won't develop any further until the sperm gets up in there and they do their business) but they get flushed away if said lady doesn't get knocked up. Does that make her a murderer too? :/

[Sweeney]

An embryo is something that will develop into a baby. Kill it and the baby won't be developed. Don't kill it and it will become a baby. Aborting an embryo is preventing a baby from being developed, hence basically killing a baby.

No. An embryo will not develop into a baby on it's own. It requires outside assistance from the mother. The classification "able to develop into a human with outside help" applies to all human cells. Are you a murderer for exfoliating?

Furthermore, it applies to human gametes. Is a woman a murderer every time she ovulates and doesn't allow herself to be fertilised? Is a man a mass murderer every time he ejaculates into a tissue?

Further still, even with assistance, many fertilised embryos will not become babies. As many as 75% of all fertilisations end in a miscarriage. Many women miscarry so early they never even knew they were pregnant. Are these women guilty of manslaughter? Did their bodies kill their babies? Uh, no.

Preventing the development of a baby is not the same as killing a baby. If you like, it can be compared to euthanasia - people with the power of attorney over the life in question decide to end it, while said life is incapable of hearing, seeing, thinking, touching, tasting, smelling or... well, anything.

[Sweeney]

You still kill the possibility of the embryo of becoming a human being. Abortion is very different from miscarriage. In abortion, you choose to miscarry the embryo.

You're not following the line of argument at all. Any human cell has the potential to become a human being with outside assistance. Are you "kill[ing] the possibility of [these cells] becoming a human being" when you, say, skin your knee?

"Kill[ing] [...] the possibility" of something, is not the same as killing something. If I run out of sugar, and cannot make a cake, it would be wrong for someone to say that I had destroyed a cake.

[Elindoril]

The embryo exists.

You're stopping the ability of it developing into a baby. You aren't murdering the baby itself.

I'm basically killing 40 million babies by ejaculating into a tissue.

[Fikri]

women should be allowed to abort. dumpings of infants in public toilets and drains are a daily occurence here in malaysia and often highlighted in the front pages of newspapers.

[luvsmyncis]

Then why is it okay for rape victims to abort? In your opinion, she's killing a soon-to-be person. Using your logic, shouldn't the baby be carried to full term, get born, and then the rapist is forced to raise it to adulthood? That way, the parent (rapist father) is taking responsibility.

[Sweeney]

But only embryos can be another sentient human being.

This is not correct.
 

Running out of sugar which prevents you from making a cake is not the same as making a choice to stop making a cake

Well, fine. If I decide to stop making a cake halfway through, that is not the same as destroying a cake.

[luvsmyncis]

Well, fine. If I decide to stop making a cake halfway through, that is not the same as destroying a cake.

Don't forget to lick the spoon, cake murderer.

[Sweeney]

Elaborate.

All human cells have the potential to become a human with sufficient outside assistance.
 

The end result is still the same.

Yes, there is no cake. But the process is not the same, and is therefore... different!

[Sweeney]

You know what, I change my mind. I personally think that the value of human life is too great to be simply thrown away, even if the opportunity of raising a child is caused by a rapist.

Well, again, you're wrong

[Turnip]

You know what, I change my mind. I personally think that the value of human life is too great to be simply thrown away, even if the opportunity of raising a child is caused by a rapist.

 

So you don't give a shit about the mother's life? Only the baby's? That's disgusting

[luvsmyncis]

You know what, I change my mind. I personally think that the value of human life is too great to be simply thrown away, even if the opportunity of raising a child is caused by a rapist.

You don't value the lives of women at all if this is your sentiment. Sickening. Absolutely sickening.

[Elindoril]

So human life is so worthless that one can simply throw it away?

War says this so yeah sure.

[Elindoril]

So you're saying the slaughter of humans is moral.

I'd choose stopping war over stopping the ability to kill a baby that doesn't exist yet.

And yes I know the embryo exists. I think that's irrelevant.

[luvsmyncis]

I do value the lives of women. I also value the lives of the unborn child.

Bullshit. If you cared about either, you wouldn't FORCE a woman carry an unwanted pregnancy to full term, AND you wouldn't let a child be born into circumstances where the parents cannot provide or care for the unwanted child.

What's worse? Having the lining of your uterus cleaned out before a fetus can develop, or throwing a crying baby into a dumpster because you're too poor and uneducated to take care of another human being? Because when you take away the first choice, you end up with the second one.

[Sweeney]

Explain how this is possible. Do you mean cloning or something?

All cells can be reverted to their undifferentiated state with chemical therapy. From there, just like a "baby", they can grow, divide and differentiate into a fully-formed human being.
 

I am concerned of the end result, which is a dead baby when there is a possibility there could be one if you chose not to abort.

No! When you abort, there is a lack of baby, not a dead baby. Just as when I decide to cancel my cake, there is a lack of cake, not a smashed up cake.
I have to say, I'm finding it hard to believe that you cannot grasp this.

So human life is so worthless that one can simply throw it away?

Human life is worthless, yes.

[Elindoril]

Lesser of two evils. Killing a baby that hasn't developed yet is still an evil.

Then let me be evil.

I'm not looking for righteousness; I'm looking for the more logical option to take.

[Sweeney]

I also value the lives of the unborn child.

An unborn child does not have independent life.

[Turnip]

I do value the lives of women. I also value the lives of the unborn child. 

 

No, by saying this you don't value women's lives at all and it's gross. A woman's life and future can be thrown away if she's forced to raise a child and she's in a situation where having a child would make things worse. Do you know how much time, effort (mental and physical) and money it takes to raise a child? Going through pregnancy and childbirth? I personally haven't gone through it yet and I don't want to until I KNOW I'm ready to handle it. If I somehow get pregnant even though I'm using contraception (using these obviously means I do not want a baby) I'll abort because I'm in no comfy financial situation to go through with it, nor do I have the mental and physical strength to raise the baby right now. But you know what? Not every lady gets a chance to avoid it. Where she HAS to raise to the baby due to whatever inane reason. Not every woman is capable of raising a child, for some at least not at the moment she becomes pregnant accidentally. It can completely ruin a person and potentially the baby's future.

 

As for the rape thing, would you like to see the leftovers from your rapist be physically around you for the rest of you life? As if the mere thought of it and any sort of injury/illness left by the attack weren't bad enough

[Elindoril]

HMU when you stop war. In the meanwhile, do you agree with me that abortion is an evil?

What's evil is taking away the freedom of choice of the woman hosting the baby.

I'd rather be called evil to kill a baby before it exists than have it dying in a dumpster cold and scared.

[Sweeney]

If you revert cells into their undifferentiated state, then you basically have an embryo. I have the same qualms about that as abortion if you choose to destroy it.

This is the state that every single one of your cells is in right now. You are saying that every time you actively remove cells from your body, or otherwise cause them to die, you are killing a potential baby.

In your own eyes, you are a mass murderer.
 

You are right. The end result is no baby when there could have been one. That to me is murder.

Well, it is not murder. Any more than not baking a cake is cake-murder.
 

And wow.

Thanks, I try.

[Sweeney]

I'm saying that it is moral to go on with it and raise the child

Wrong. It is explicitly immoral to unthinkingly bring a child into a world where it may grow up unloved, undernourished, underattended and improperly cared for. Or where it may live a life of unmitigated suffering. Or where it may die in pain, in entirely foreseeable circumstances.

Your own cells have a 0 percent possibility of growing into another human being if it isn't treated with those chemicals. Embryos have a much higher than 0 percent chance of becoming a child.

Not without outside assistance. From the mother, or from medical and scientific personnel - the difference is moot.

[best]

When discussing whether we are killing a potential independent life, I think the earth are over crowded. We need to think about educate the baby too. If the parents can't afford to take care of the baby, then bring him into life will only cause problem to the society. I agree with sweeney's opinion