334 replies to this topic

[KaibaSama]

I would agree with you. In fact, the republicans just blocked the Fair Pay Act in the senate again. My opinion with abortion/birth control, if you want to take it away go and take away the penis pumps and viagra too. It's only fair.  You'll stop women from having access to critical health services that they need, but allow men things just because they can't get it up.

Because of the over sexulaization, breast feeding is now sexual. I really wish they wouldn't over sexulaize that  (breasts I mean). The first job breasts have is to feed babies, and they're now yelling about someone doing something that part of the body was meant to do. Makes sense. 

Edited by Satsuki, 10 April 2014 - 03:26 PM.

[Dita]

Yes I'm a feminist. Feminism to me is striving for gender equality whilst recognising that yes, although male oppression exists, most issues regarding gender equality pertain to women. What feminism ISN'T is misandrists using the veil of feminism to spread their hate. Of course men can be (and should be) feminists. Everyone should be a feminist

Edited by lozpoz, 10 April 2014 - 04:44 PM.

[KaibaSama]

I didn't hear about the Fair Pay Act being blocked again, I agree with you on the penis pumps and viagra, that's a LUXURY. Penis pumps and pills that help you get it up are NOT life saving, it's so you can have fun. 

 

Birth control can be [and usually is] life saving, taking that away, you're basically forcing people who need assistance to get pregnant.

 

One could argue "Well just don't have sex!" it's not always a matter of choice, And even when it is, someone shouldn't have to stop doing that just because your don't want to cover protection for women. 

 

I forgot the breast feeding point. it's a good one to bring up.

 

BREAST FEEDING IS NOT a sexual act. it's the nourishment for an infant, women should be able to breast feed without being stared at, or called inappropriate, that's what breasts are for in the first place, not male sexual gratification.

 

I fully agree with you here, there's nothing I have to argue. 

Yup, they blocked it.http://www.nytimes.c...tml?hpw&rref=us

And I agree with the point Iozpoz makes. When people do that, spreading hate with feminism, it just undermines true feminism.

Edited by Satsuki, 10 April 2014 - 05:07 PM.

[Bone]

Yes I'm a feminist. Feminism to me is striving for gender equality whilst recognising that yes, although male oppression exists, most issues regarding gender equality pertain to women. What feminism ISN'T is misandrists using the veil of feminism to spread their hate. Of course men can be (and should be) feminists. Everyone should be a feminist

 

I don't think "misandry" even needs to be brought up when discussing feminism. It simply doesn't exist on an institutional level like sexism does, or at all outside of fringe internet blogs.

[KaibaSama]

I don't get why people spread hate, all true feminists want is equality, not one sex over the other. 

I'll take a look at that link right now.

I have another link for it as well, it gives more quotes and I think more of the story. http://www.bbc.com/n...canada-26964278

I am sick and tired of people blocking the fair pay act. Just because I was born a woman, I earn less for doing the same work? Because of something I had no control over? Stupid old white men. 1 month, just 1 month and I have voting powers. *shakes fist angrily* 

I read that the last attempt to get the ERA on the constitution was blocked because people thought women would be drafted so they hung signs on baby girls saying "don't draft me". And these were women doing it. http://www.equalrigh...org/history.htm

At least PA has a form of the ERA in our state laws.

Edited by Satsuki, 10 April 2014 - 05:11 PM.

[redlion]

I don't really have much to contribute to this thread. I mean, I agree that women are equally capable and should be treated equally under the law. I agree that birth control is a reproductive health issue that should be covered by health care providers. I agree that the glass ceiling is bad, and wage inequality is likewise bad.

I also agree with Bone's point that misandry is a fairly rare ideology to encounter, and not really a mainstream mode of thought.

All that said, my opinion doesn't really count for much. There are still plenty of people in Africa that think having sex with a young virgin will cure one of AIDS. We've still got a ways to go.

[Sweeney]

People who are not feminist are stupid people.

[luvsmyncis]

I don't think "misandry" even needs to be brought up when discussing feminism. It simply doesn't exist on an institutional level like sexism does, or at all outside of fringe internet blogs.

And anyway, me hating every man on earth doesn't take their power away from them, but it sure does make me feel better.

medicines like viagra are covered by medicaid, where as birth control is not, [I've recently learned in some states it is, other's it isn't. Still unfair.]

What? In what states is Viagra, Levitra, or Cialis covered by Medicaid? Birth control is most definitely covered by Medicaid (in the state of Texas for sure... TEXAS... which is notorious for it's ignorance when it comes to reproduction issues) AND Medicare (which is nationwide) AND all private insurance. It is now the law (THANKS OBAMA) for birth control to be covered.
 

I understand the pains that women go through, because I have endured them, Seeing old white men not understanding the struggles that women face, and their lack of empathy makes me sick, why should they get that choice? it's not their lives, it's not their struggle.

You understand the pain because you've been through it. How are you going to make an old white man feel that pain? Not their life, not their struggle, not their problem. It's hard for a privileged person to understand bigotry or the social stigma associated with being 'less than' whether it's because of race or class or gender, because they haven't had to endure it. And when they are forced to recognize these divides, they usually get upset and make excuses or denials. It takes a big person to wake up, see how the world works and realize holy shit, I'm lucky to be where I am because my great-great-great grandpa was allowed to own property, instead of, you know... actually being property.
 

All that said, my opinion doesn't really count for much. There are still plenty of people in Africa that think having sex with a young virgin will cure one of AIDS. We've still got a ways to go.

And acid attacks. And genital mutilation. And denying women education. And infanticide. And so on and so forth.

[Magical]

Okay so here it is, my opinion, so respect it, you may not agree with it, but don't tell me to GTFO:

 

Definition of feminism: Showing favour to females - a form of bias.

 

Unfortunately, I, a male, am a feminist, by nature. I prefer the company of females and I give preferential treatment to them - always sub/unconsciously. This is part of my imperfection as a human. I personally (consciously) agree in equality - gender race etc. Elevating one category over another is still bias.

 

Being quite religious, I do not agree with abortion - it's life. Period. (I will welcome debate, NOT argument)

 

The disgusting subjection of women in homes where Sharia law is exercised sickens me, literally. Women are to be treated with respect, they are not the property of another person, rather, a compliment to one's life, and vice versa with men.

 

Unfortunately, the debate on feminism is discounted by bigots (don't say old white men, you're just biased against them when you do). Yes, there are so many narrow-minded people on this earth that are blinded by preconceptions and are not willing/cannot change their view. I however, pride myself in being a down to earth, understanding and humble.

 

Yes, I have my opinions, but I am able to see both sides of the story. This is a gift that I cherish, partly owed to the wonderful, strong and beautiful people around me. Influence is a huge thing. I was taught to respect women and men. Bigots were taught to view women as objects, lacking respect.

 

Just my two cents on the issue. I could go on for days, but I won't. Thank you for raising this issue. Going to read everyone's posts now and see what you all feel.

X

Yes I'm a feminist. Feminism to me is striving for gender equality whilst recognising that yes, although male oppression exists, most issues regarding gender equality pertain to women. What feminism ISN'T is misandrists using the veil of feminism to spread their hate. Of course men can be (and should be) feminists. Everyone should be a feminist

 

I really appreciate this definition of feminism - striving for equality. Semantic shift from the term's etymology, however is irrelevant, so I agree

It takes a big person to wake up, see how the world works and realize holy shit, I'm lucky to be where I am because my great-great-great grandpa was allowed to own property, instead of, you know... actually being property.

 

I cannot detest this any more than I do. No, you're so far from lucky. You're not lucky, because you have been robbed of your rights. Don't settle for anything less than fair. It's not right, so don't accept it. Passive and self-respect are two qualities that you won't find TOGETHER in a person.

[Syntax]

Feminism isn't showing favour to females. Feminism is advocating equality for females and recognising them as able and as important as males. It often appears to be "showing favour" to women because the norm is to favour the men instead through long held, traditionalist views that men are inherently "better".

[Sweeney]

Okay so here it is, my opinion, so respect it, you may not agree with it, but don't tell me to GTFO:

Definition of feminism: Showing favour to females - a form of bias.

Unfortunately, I, a male, am a feminist, by nature. I prefer the company of females and I give preferential treatment to them - always sub/unconsciously. This is part of my imperfection as a human. I personally (consciously) agree in equality - gender race etc. Elevating one category over another is still bias.

Being quite religious, I do not agree with abortion - it's life. Period. (I will welcome debate, NOT argument)

The disgusting subjection of women in homes where Sharia law is exercised sickens me, literally. Women are to be treated with respect, they are not the property of another person, rather, a compliment to one's life, and vice versa with men.

Unfortunately, the debate on feminism is discounted by bigots (don't say old white men, you're just biased against them when you do). Yes, there are so many narrow-minded people on this earth that are blinded by preconceptions and are not willing/cannot change their view. I however, pride myself in being a down to earth, understanding and humble.

Yes, I have my opinions, but I am able to see both sides of the story. This is a gift that I cherish, partly owed to the wonderful, strong and beautiful people around me. Influence is a huge thing. I was taught to respect women and men. Bigots were taught to view women as objects, lacking respect.

Just my two cents on the issue. I could go on for days, but I won't. Thank you for raising this issue. Going to read everyone's posts now and see what you all feel.
X


I really appreciate this definition of feminism - striving for equality. Semantic shift from the term's etymology, however is irrelevant, so I agree

I cannot detest this any more than I do. No, you're so far from lucky. You're not lucky, because you have been robbed of your rights. Don't settle for anything less than fair. It's not right, so don't accept it. Passive and self-respect are two qualities that you won't find TOGETHER in a person.

This is the most comical post I have ever read in this section.

Well, no, it isn't. But I am fond of hyperbole.

Your interpretation of the etymology is completely incorrect. The -ism suffix is not derived in the same sense as racism or sexism, it does not denote bias to or against a group. It is morein the sense of atheism or alcolism - originally, feminism meant "the state of being feminine", much like "the state of being atheist". The shift towards being representative of the women's rights movement came later. But still, never has the word denoted, or been derived from, something meaning showing bias or favour toward women.

This clarification (which you are welcome to dispute, by the way, but I am not wrong) blows your second paragraph right out of the water. Your "sub-conscious" preferential treatment of women is not feminist. It's probably the opposite, indicative of the "nice guy" syndrome that pervades the internet. By putting women on a pedestal, you strip them of the depth of existence that they otherwise hold - you say you were raised not to treat women like objects, but your words indicate that that is exactly what you do.

The sharia law aspect of the deconstruction of female autonomy is one extreme aspect of the terrible things that women endure due to their lack of rights in such places. Being able to point to those abuses and say "well, we're better than that, at least", is one of the things that helps blind people like you to the insidious nature of internalised sexism in themselves and others.

You can't pride yourself on being humble. It's practically oxymoronic. The fact is that you do not know or understand or empathise with what women endure on a daily basis. You can't. You don't have a vagina (to take the potentially offensive and definitely simplistic view on gender for the sake of a soundbite).

And here we are, at the end of your post, where you reveal that you haven't read any of the posts by women in this thread. But by all means, feel free to jump in with your inexperienced male opinion and tell as all what to be thinking.

And then, when you have read some posts, you come back and tell @punkrockbigmouth that her opinion about her own luckiness is wrong. So no, I think you are the one who does not understand self-worth. I think you are the one who does not understand feminism. I think you have some learning to do.

[Magical]

Feminism isn't showing favour to females. Feminism is advocating equality for females and recognising them as able and as important as males. It often appears to be "showing favour" to women because the norm is to favour the men instead through long held, traditionalist views that men are inherently "better".

 

The word is defined as I have mentioned. The biggest hind is it's suffix, '-ist' denoting preference or favour. That's it's denotation, yet it's connotation can vary from one end of the spectrum to another. Essentially, it's a misleading word.

[Sweeney]

The word is defined as I have mentioned. The biggest hind is it's suffix, '-ist' denoting preference or favour. That's it's denotation, yet it's connotation can vary from one end of the spectrum to another. Essentially, it's a misleading word.

Wrong.

[Speedracer]

The word is defined as I have mentioned. The biggest hind is it's suffix, '-ist' denoting preference or favour. That's it's denotation, yet it's connotation can vary from one end of the spectrum to another. Essentially, it's a misleading word.

http://www.merriam-w...ionary/feminism

[Magical]

 Sweeney, on 11 Apr 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

    This is the most comical post I have ever read in this section.

    Well, no, it isn't. But I am fond of hyperbole.

    Your interpretation of the etymology is completely incorrect. The -ism suffix is not derived in the same sense as racism or sexism, it does not denote bias to or against a group. It is morein the sense of atheism or alcolism - originally, feminism meant "the state of being feminine", much like "the state of being atheist". The shift towards being representative of the women's rights movement came later. But still, never has the word denoted, or been derived from, something meaning showing bias or favour toward women.

    This clarification (which you are welcome to dispute, by the way, but I am not wrong) blows your second paragraph right out of the water. Your "sub-conscious" preferential treatment of women is not feminist. It's probably the opposite, indicative of the "nice guy" syndrome that pervades the internet. By putting women on a pedestal, you strip them of the depth of existence that they otherwise hold - you say you were raised not to treat women like objects, but your words indicate that that is exactly what you do.

    The sharia law aspect of the deconstruction of female autonomy is one extreme aspect of the terrible things that women endure due to their lack of rights in such places. Being able to point to those abuses and say "well, we're better than that, at least", is one of the things that helps blind people like you to the insidious nature of internalised sexism in themselves and others.

    You can't pride yourself on being humble. It's practically oxymoronic. The fact is that you do not know or understand or empathise with what women endure on a daily basis. You can't. You don't have a vagina (to take the potentially offensive and definitely simplistic view on gender for the sake of a soundbite).

    And here we are, at the end of your post, where you reveal that you haven't read any of the posts by women in this thread. But by all means, feel free to jump in with your inexperienced male opinion and tell as all what to be thinking.

    And then, when you have read some posts, you come back and tell @punkrockbigmouth that her opinion about her own luckiness is wrong. So no, I think you are the one who does not understand self-worth. I think you are the one who does not understand feminism. I think you have some learning to do.

Hahaha! Lol, @Sweeney Okay, so you obviously didn't even read the disclaimer at the TOP of my post. This is after all my opinion, you tell me I'm 'wrong', but, no, you are wrong (again, my 'opinion' I hope you understand the concept).

When you post blunt comments that take a jab at a person rather than their argument, it shows.

Yes, I lolled. Firstly, let me state, that I posted my opinion first, BEFORE I read everyone else's as I appreciate a pure opinion, not one swayed by others.

Absolutely, I'm proud about my humility. Totally an oxymoron. It's something that is true, however. I don't gloat about my humility. It's covert, it's something that pervades every aspect of my life. This is the only place that I will acknowledge it. I don't know about you, but I can look at myself in the third-person, I know what I am and who I am. An observation about a certain quality of my personality. That's all. Don't confuse humble with dogmatic (another preconception of yours that you've overlooked).

I'm adamant on my interpretation of the etymology. See my above post. And don't tell me I'm wrong here. I know I'm not. I won't educate you on the English Language, because frankly, I can't be bothered.

I can't even stress how much YOU DO NOT KNOW ME. You don't know how I treat women. So don't make ignorant assumptions.

I'd say around 70% of my close friends are female. I treat them with chivalry. Polite and courteous, as manly men do not. I'm the kind to hold a door open for anyone, but ALWAYS for a female. This does not strip them of their worth, by treating them with manners (sounds a little bit like an oxymoron to me, hey?) you give them respect. Respecting someone with daily kindnesses does not make me a victim of 'nice guy' syndrome.

(Thus, far you have discussed more about ME than the actual ISSUE, lol).

Being able to point to those abuses and say "well, we're better than that, at least", is one of the things that helps blind people like you to the insidious nature of internalised sexism in themselves and others.

So, like, when did I ever say this? Deciding that I'm blind doesn't help the issue.

And to clarify, I'm not blind at all hun. I'm not going to talk about how I level with this issue as it's none of your business. You're absolutely right, I don't have the body of a female, I don't know how degrading it is to be groped, victim of sexual abuse etc. But I know what lack of self-worth is and how to attain it. Don't you dare tell me that I fall short in this area, I know how dejection feels, and I don't welcome your assumption that I don't. My experiences qualify me on a level of understanding. Not an exact level, but nonetheless on the same page.

I empathise with everyone who has ever seen a wall in their life. My wall has been exceptionally high. And don't tell me it's not, because you'd be wrong.

I feel strongly about how people treat people - and you've so ignorantly missed this point.

your inexperienced male opinion

Here it is. Now this is where you completely miss what this forum is about. You've just decimated your entire argument and stance on feminism. But hey, I can't help you if you wish to contradict yourself.

Now I stated the tone in my post, so that people who jump the gun like you, don't misunderstand me. I welcomed debate, not an argument, and not an ATTACK.

You have spent your entire post talking about issues that you know nothing about (ie. my life), than the issue at hand. I don't understand how a person can blindly (oh, snap!) fall into such hypocrisy. Your attack on me dilutes and voids your argument.

My opinion. That's all.

I look forward to what you have to rebut. Hopefully, it'll be more about the issue and your own respected opinion, rather than about me.

Wrong.

 

Oh, mama, completely missed my point. Anyway.

[luvsmyncis]

Unfortunately, the debate on feminism is discounted by bigots (don't say old white men, you're just biased against them when you do).

... I can't use the term "old white men" when talking about "old white men"? Okay okay, I guess it should be "old white men AND a sprinkling of young, ambitious, Republican black and hispanic men." Does that make me sound less prejudiced against old people, white people, and men people? I wouldn't want to hurt the feelings of the people who ARE DENYING OTHER PEOPLE RIGHTS.

I am lucky. I might be female, but it could be worse. I could be gay. Or I could have a more obvious ethnicity. I understand my struggle just fine without you telling me how mad I should or shouldn't be about it. I'm certainly not a passive person, I am the furthest thing from passive. Even so, just because someone seems passive doesn't mean they don't have self-respect. Some people don't want to stir things up, especially when all their life they've been told they aren't worth much. Some people just try to get through the day.

This clarification (which you are welcome to dispute, by the way, but I am not wrong) blows your second paragraph right out of the water. Your "sub-conscious" preferential treatment of women is not feminist. It's probably the opposite, indicative of the "nice guy" syndrome that pervades the internet. By putting women on a pedestal, you strip them of the depth of existence that they otherwise hold - you say you were raised not to treat women like objects, but your words indicate that that is exactly what you do.

The sharia law aspect of the deconstruction of female autonomy is one extreme aspect of the terrible things that women endure due to their lack of rights in such places. Being able to point to those abuses and say "well, we're better than that, at least", is one of the things that helps blind people like you to the insidious nature of internalised sexism in themselves and others.

Does Nymh want a sister-wife?

[Magical]

What I'm getting at is it's connotation (social and emotional association of a word) is MISSLEADING. I have no idea what you may have been thinking of. My class of 4th years, perfectly understand this.

Feel free to say old white men, but you certainly will be profiling, and everyone will know it.

And I detest this term as well, because not all old white men are bigots. I'm not asking for an indefinite list of profiles, but I ask that you don't make generalisations, as they are offensive to me and may well be to others. So please use bigots (or any other accurate term) as that is what such people are.

@Sweeney

 

This is much better discussed over skype etc. so that tones are not misunderstood.

[Syntax]

The word is defined as I have mentioned. The biggest hind is it's suffix, '-ist' denoting preference or favour. That's it's denotation, yet it's connotation can vary from one end of the spectrum to another. Essentially, it's a misleading word.

 

 

http://www.merriam-w...ionary/feminism

 

^

 

I really don't know what dictionary you're using.

 

I honestly cannot believe that you're using the classic "It's my opinion, respect it because IT'S MAH OPINION" line. Your basis of argument (the definition of feminism) is wrong. The parts of a word may mean different things, but that meaning has evolved over time and doesn't mean that any more. Now the generally accepted definition is what Speedracer and many others has kindly pointed out. It's like saying a cake isn't really a cake, it's eggs. It's eggs because it has eggs, and it uses eggs. AND I'M STILL RIGHT BECAUSE IT'S MAH OPINION AND WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THAT I DON'T CARE ABOUT CAKE? I EAT CAKE EVERY DAY. I LOVE CAKE. CAKE IS MY FAVOURITE THING EVER. I RESPECT CAKE MORE THAN I RESPECT BREAD. But you know, when I say cake I actually mean eggs.

Edited by Syntax, 11 April 2014 - 05:47 AM.

[Magical]

^

 

I really don't know what dictionary you're using.

 

I honestly cannot believe that you're using the classic "It's my opinion, respect it because IT'S MAH OPINION" line. Your basis of argument (the definition of feminism) is wrong. The parts of a word may mean different things, but that meaning has evolved over time and doesn't mean that any more. Now the generally accepted definition is what Speedracer and many others has kindly pointed out. It's like saying a cake isn't really a cake, it's eggs. It's eggs because it has eggs, and it uses eggs. AND I'M STILL RIGHT BECAUSE IT'S MAH OPINION AND WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THAT I DON'T CARE ABOUT CAKE? I EAT CAKE EVERY DAY. I LOVE CAKE. CAKE IS MY FAVOURITE THING EVER. I RESPECT CAKE MORE THAN I RESPECT BREAD. But you know, when I say cake I actually mean eggs.

 

The same one as you.

 

I agree with this definition as it is. But I'm not discussing it's denotation. Merely deconstructing the etymology of the affixes. I'm sorry if I haven't made that clear, reading my post now, I couldn't written that more ambiguously :3

I think you should respect another's opinion. Don't agree with it? Fine, rebut, but don't tear their house down. I speak objectively as it's my opinion - we all do - it's molded around out feelings and principles. In my mind, I'm right, in you, yours.

 

Guys, please don't misunderstand, Thane prompted a very compelling issue that we all have close to our hearts. But these are our opinions. And I swear if I have to use that word again I'll explode

[Nymh]

I'd say around 70% of my close friends are female. I treat them with chivalry. Polite and courteous, as manly men do not. I'm the kind to hold a door open for anyone, but ALWAYS for a female. This does not strip them of their worth, by treating them with manners (sounds a little bit like an oxymoron to me, hey?) you give them respect. Respecting someone with daily kindnesses does not make me a victim of 'nice guy' syndrome.

 

Why do I deserve for you or any other man to go out of their way to hold the door open for me when they might not do so if I were a male?  Why should someone make it a point to be polite and courteous to me, just because I am a woman, when they might be more genuine and real with a man?  Why would someone enjoy my company more because of my gender?  I am a person, and I want you to treat me the same way you treat all people.  THAT is feminism.

 

Bias toward females, as you have clearly outlined both in your opinion of feminism and the examples you have posted, is not feminism.  That may be the term you associate with what you are describing, but that is not what it is.

Does Nymh want a sister-wife?

 

I wouldn't mind a little help around the house, but pretty much everything else about it is a big no for me.

[Magical]

Why do I deserve for you or any other man to go out of their way to hold the door open for me when they might not do so if I were a male?  Why should someone make it a point to be polite and courteous to me, just because I am a woman, when they might be more genuine and real with a man?  Why would someone enjoy my company more because of my gender?  I am a person, and I want you to treat me the same way you treat all people.  THAT is feminism.

 

Bias toward females, as you have clearly outlined both in your opinion of feminism and the examples you have posted, is not feminism.  That may be the term you associate with what you are describing, but that is not what it is.

 

Hey Nymh,

 

My friends are mostly female not because they have a vagina They're my friends because I enjoy their company, exactly as you've said. Ain't it kind, though, to hold open a door for someone? I think it's respectable. Call it unequal treatment of women (by elevating them) but Chivalry is an old concept. I make a point to hold a door open for a woman, not because I think 'Oh! She's female, poor thing' I hold a door open for a woman, because no one else will. Walking down a street once, I came across a woman who had been violently abused and raped. No one except me came to help, although there were plenty in the vicinity.

 

I'm going to go and help that person, and for some reason I don't know (maybe that experience?) I feel that women are not exempt from a man being a gentleman. Melbourne is quite a respectable city and people genuinely appreciate it.

 

Please don't slam the door on a man who is trying to be kind to a woman. It's a harmless act, and don't be so quick to take offense.

Edited by Magical, 11 April 2014 - 06:32 AM.