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abortion feminism. debate

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#76 GhostMommy

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 08:25 AM

Statistics are fun.  Once could take the degree of antidepressents prescribed to women as a sign that women suffer more dispression.  Once could also take the high rate of suicide amoung men as a sign that men suffer more depression.  Once also could take the incident that women are depressed because they have to put up with men's crap as a dang good cause why women get depressed.

 

Also there was a great skit on "Inside Amy Scwhatsherename" ,  her boyfriend was playing some battle simulation like Call of Duty, and Amy sat down to play and chose a female charecter to spawn.   Well, instead of going off to battle her female charecter was immediately assulted by her commanding officer and her game mission was then to obtain justice under the military justice system.

 

Sick stuff.


Edited by Mibs, 11 April 2014 - 08:28 AM.


#77 Magical

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 08:25 AM

 

Santana_raising_hand.gif


Also... Sexual abuse of men is not as prevalent. Sorry, but it's just not :/ (Not to diminish the men who have been sexually abused, I'll make that clear...)

 

But you just don't know that...



#78 Sweeney

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 08:31 AM

But you just don't know that...


No more or less than you know the opposite.
If you're allowed to make stuff up, why can't they?

#79 GhostMommy

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 08:33 AM

But you just don't know that...

Every study in the world supports that more women than men are assults, both as adults and as children.



#80 Magical

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 08:33 AM

Oh God, lord. And you've 'educated' me on ignorance...



#81 Speedracer

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 08:34 AM

Lol, then they obviously don't support it...

Just because they can be misleading doesn't mean they can't support an argument. For example the previous stats, while looking at the suicide rate you could guess that male depression is under reported so women may not be twice as likely to suffer from depression. The point remains that 1 in 5 women will suffer from depression demonstrating that pressure from whatever still effects them that even if it isn't from "carrying the load" in addition not all suicides come from suffering with depression so suicide rates are necessarily indicative of depression rates. 



#82 Sweeney

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 08:35 AM

Oh God, lord. And you've 'educated' me on ignorance...


If you want to have part of a conversation in private, it is considered courteous not to refer to that part of the conversation in public.

#83 NapisaurusRex

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 08:46 AM

Well, that's just great. I bet if you had a job you'd be demonized for not caring about your kids.

Yep. When I was a single mom and worked full-time and went to school, I 'needed to try harder to find a man to take care of us'.

#84 Turnip

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 09:03 AM

@Magical holy crap man. Another female here. Ok so this is a feminism thread right? And there have been a LOT of women posting but you haven't listened a single one of their posts. And you've just been passing off Sweeney's posts and opinions (and his are correct! You can have right and wrong opinions) as if they're nothing just because he's male. You keep saying that you treat women with more ``respect" than men or whatever the fuck too, disregarding the girls who responded's opinions on this matter because "you're a male and can voice your opinion on this matter", which is basically just saying that their opinion isn't worth shit. Saying that your male opinion on feminism is worth more than a female's? How can you not see how this is a bit problematic? How this isn't actually treating people equally and how its actually sexist. You're treating women as ``special" because you assume that their life has been shit up until the point you held the door open for them or let them have your seat. You know, for your whole holding the door open thing...

 

You're just assuming their gender based off their looks aren't you? Would you hold the door open for a trans or a non-binary person? Or just someone who is a cisfemale and "looks like a guy". Would you slam the door in their faces? Since that doesn't sound very considerate and gentleman-like.


Edited by Turnip, 11 April 2014 - 09:07 AM.


#85 GhostMommy

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 09:41 AM

Why is this tagged "abortion" and "feminism"?  Although reproductive rights for those than can reproduce does have some overlap with feminism why would you include these two tags together?  In the universe of opinions there are anti-abortion feminist and there are pro-abortion sexists. 



#86 Sweeney

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 09:46 AM

Why is this tagged "abortion" and "feminism"?  Although reproductive rights for those than can reproduce does have some overlap with feminism why would you include these two tags together?  In the universe of opinions there are anti-abortion feminist and there are pro-abortion sexists.


I don't think that anybody who does not support the reproductive rights of women can be realistically called a feminist.

#87 Frizzle

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:35 AM


Santana_raising_hand.gif

Also... Sexual abuse of men is not as prevalent. Sorry, but it's just not :/ (Not to diminish the men who have been sexually abused, I'll make that clear...)


Thats ok, we'll just dismiss rape victims because a few more women got there boobs grabbed. Way to further divide the sexes.

Just because they can be misleading doesn't mean they can't support an argument. For example the previous stats, while looking at the suicide rate you could guess that male depression is under reported so women may not be twice as likely to suffer from depression. The point remains that 1 in 5 women will suffer from depression demonstrating that pressure from whatever still effects them that even if it isn't from "carrying the load" in addition not all suicides come from suffering with depression so suicide rates are necessarily indicative of depression rates.


Sorry I refuse to acknowledge someone who believes suicide, ie the counter-evolutionary act of killing oneself, is not act of depression or serious mental health issue. The fact you use misleading statistics to back up your point leads me to believe you're relatively ignorant of the subject and shouldn't be taken seriously.


It is totally stressful to provide for your family, especially if you are the breadwinner. Guess what makes it harder and even more stressful? Getting paid less simply because you are a woman.

That's a big problem. If society didn't view women as the weaker sex, men would no longer have to pretend to be stronger.


I don't believe women get paid less then men in general. I can't imagine any buisness actively paying less money, for the same role, unless it was a high up CEO postion or sports. Which is understandable.

I also don't buy into the idea that because society views females as the weaker sex (correct view if course), that men wouldn't still have the pressures of being the strong bread winner. From an evolutionary stand point, it will always be that way. Unless 6,000 years of humanity is due an evolutionary change over night.

#88 redlion

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 11:04 AM

I don't believe women get paid less then men in general. I can't imagine any buisness actively paying less money, for the same role, unless it was a high up CEO postion or sports. Which is understandable.

Well you believe wrong.

This is from wikipedia, but they're citing the Bureau of Labor Statistics directly.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, women’s salaries vis-à-vis men’s have risen dramatically since the EPA’s enactment, from 62% of men’s earnings in 1979 to 80% in 2004. Nonetheless, the EPA’s equal pay for equal work goals have not been completely achieved, as demonstrated by the BLS data and Congressional findings within the text of the proposed Paycheck Fairness Act.

This is a US only statistic, but I find it hard to believe that wages are better for women in the developing world. Perhaps Western Europe (or the UK specifically) has better standards, but your tiny corner of the globe doesn't represent the entirety.

They pay women less because they can. Simple as that. There need be no other reason.

#89 Eefi

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 11:15 AM

I don't believe women get paid less then men in general. I can't imagine any buisness actively paying less money, for the same role, unless it was a high up CEO postion or sports. Which is understandable.

I also don't buy into the idea that because society views females as the weaker sex (correct view if course), that men wouldn't still have the pressures of being the strong bread winner. From an evolutionary stand point, it will always be that way. Unless 6,000 years of humanity is due an evolutionary change over night.

It's nice that you don't believe it but that doesn't make it any less true. Here is a German source from not even a month ago. Now it's hard to compare salaries from different people but in another article from the same newspaper, they sent in two resumes for the same job and the only difference was their names (one male and one female). And big surprise, the woman was offered less for the same job.

And why exactly is a female less suited for a high up CEO position?

 

This discrepancy in salaries depending on your gender gets my blood boiling every time. When searching for average salaries because I am currently looking for a job, I was taken aback that very often, I found two different numbers for males and females >_>



#90 Speedracer

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 12:15 PM

Sorry I refuse to acknowledge someone who believes suicide, ie the counter-evolutionary act of killing oneself, is not act of depression or serious mental health issue.

I just said depression wasn't the only cause of suicide, like you said there are many other mental conditions that lead to suicide e.g. schizophrenia.



#91 Nymh

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 03:55 PM

I don't believe women get paid less then men in general. I can't imagine any buisness actively paying less money, for the same role, unless it was a high up CEO postion or sports. Which is understandable.

 

Completely anecdotal, but I make $4000 less per year than the man who was in my position before me, and I have 10 years experience where he had none whatsoever.



#92 KaibaSama

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 04:11 PM

I don't believe women get paid less then men in general. I can't imagine any buisness actively paying less money, for the same role, unless it was a high up CEO postion or sports. Which is understandable.
 

77 cents for every dollar a man makes, is the general consensus in the US. It's gone up to 81 cents now, but it still isn't a dollar for every dollar a man makes. You pay women less money, the more money the company can keep for itself, since it doesn't have to use that money for salaries. 

 

Equal Pay Day is in April, the 8th this year, that shows currently how many more days/more time a woman must work to earn the same a man did in the previous year because of wage discrimination. 

 

US Department of Labor on Wage Discrimation: http://www.dol.gov/equalpay/


Edited by Satsuki, 11 April 2014 - 04:15 PM.


#93 luvsmyncis

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 05:37 AM

Completely anecdotal, but I make $4000 less per year than the man who was in my position before me, and I have 10 years experience where he had none whatsoever.


Mine is completely anecdotal as well, so you know. Just take it or leave it. Our experiences don't really mean a lot.

This is how my career path has looked so far... cashier->beauty advisor->senior beauty advisor->photo technician->inventory management coordinator->pharmacy technician->senior pharmacy technician->(soon to be)shift lead

When I was in charge of inventory, about six years ago, there was a male photo tech who printed his paycheck at work and I learned he was making $1.50 more than me, despite having been with the company 2 years less than I. Then they dissolved the inventory position and turned it into a 'shift lead' position, which I would have LOVED, but they offered me the job for $9 an hour. Starting as a pharmacy tech was $11, so I did that instead. We had a new fat lazy douchebag shift lead transfer to our store and he was certified as a pharmacy tech so I asked him why he didn't just move to the pharmacy. Turns out he was making $15 an hour for the job they offered me to do for $9.

Now that I'm sick of the pharmacy, I'm taking up the shift lead position and will be taking a pay cut from $15 down to $14. It's less stressful, so I'm just gonna take my $14 and be grateful they're giving it to me instead of getting some fat fuckin' lazy douchebag to do it again for $15.

#94 Ali

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 10:30 AM

Esssssssay time.

 

The TLDR sum up: In the real sense of the word, that I believe women deserve equal opportunity and shouldn't suffer any form of direct discrimination, yes of course I am. But no more so than I think that about race or sexuality or disability or any other characteristic you care to name. Women should be presented with choice and opportunity and shouldn't be criticised for what they do with those choices and opportunities. The difficulty lies in separating choice as a feminist from "choice" because you feel you have to do it to succeed or progress or be attractive. Beyonce can writhe about in her underwear as much as she likes if she feels happy and confident and that's what she wants to do and I won't judge her for it. She shouldn't feel she has to writhe about in her underwear to sell records.

 

The much longer version (apologies, it's a little bit stream of consciousness rather than a well structured debate but I'm shattered):

Spoiler

 

 

I don't believe women get paid less then men in general. I can't imagine any buisness actively paying less money, for the same role, unless it was a high up CEO postion or sports. Which is understandable.

That's because it's not really true in the UK I believe (someone feel free to correct me, discrimination law has changed in the 8 years since I gave up on AS Law!). The Equality Act 2010 made pay secrecy clauses unenforceable which allows women to know if they're being paid less than a male counterpart. Gender is a protected characteristic and so a workplace can't discriminate on that ground; if a woman was being paid less, the employer would have to show reasoning - that the male was more qualified, or had been at that company longer or their role involved more responsibility.

 

I think the gender pay gap in the UK refers more to the fact that the average man earns more than the average women. Men are more likely to be in higher paid professions (e.g. finance/law/engineering over arts/education), women are more likely to be flexible workers due to childcare, women take time out for childbirth/raising so are promoted less rapidly, women are more prevalent in public sector jobs such as local councils that have been affected by pay freezes etc. Very different working profiles.



#95 Guest_iCarly_*

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 02:17 PM

Holy shit, okay I missed a lot.

 



Why is this tagged "abortion" and "feminism"?  Although reproductive rights for those than can reproduce does have some overlap with feminism why would you include these two tags together?  In the universe of opinions there are anti-abortion feminist and there are pro-abortion sexists. 

Because abortion was meant to be a topic discussed along side it, it wasn't meant as my opinion on it to be stated. I wanted to know who agreed and disagreed, but also supported feminism along with supporting or being against abortion. 

 

@Magical Although being a terrible ally to females and female bodied people. Is still allowed his opinion, even though the majority disagrees. [I disagree with him fully as well] 

 

@Sweeney really summed up a lot of what I wanted to say, I feel it'd just be agreeing if I were to respond to everything here. 



#96 Mishelle

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 12:39 PM

It's really sad that it's 2014 and most people don't even know what feminism is. Most people just associate feminism with man hating and bra burning (which never happened). Feminism has evolved in waves and it does not just aim to uplift women but also uplift everyone where race, gender, sexual orientation and class intersect. We have a very blatant power structure in our society and it's not only unfair but counterproductive and a complete waste of our resources. It makes me mad when I imagine what our world would be like today if everyone actually had the same opportunities. 


Edited by Mishelle, 16 April 2014 - 12:41 PM.


#97 Doe

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 06:23 AM

Napoleon said "Women are nothing but machines for producing children". It's true.

 

I view women like this. Take away the sexy hair, the makeup, the tits, the vagina, the fact you want to put your penis inside her orifices, and all the other shit that you're attracted to about them and what do you have? You basically have a leech that's going to drain your time, resources, complicate your life and try and manipulate you and stress you out.

 

Out of the thousands of women I've spoken to broken down, experimented with, observed, etc... They're all rather easily manipulated when you understand the basic laws of female attraction. Granted there are always exceptions and the human mind is extremely complex, deep down they're all basically the same. As are most men. As are msot people. Yet men have a predisposition to lead, control, and conquer. There's a reason why so few women are involved in politics and on the forbes list, because they're not built the same way as men, again there are always exceptions and any woman has the potential to be great, yet as a whole the female gender is inferior to the male gender. Now you can blame this on the fact that women are underpaid and have less options, etc, etc. Yet, it is that way because men have made it so, which validates my previous argument.



#98 Sweeney

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 03:32 PM

Napoleon said "Women are nothing but machines for producing children". It's true.


And men are no more than machines for inseminating women. I mean, if you take a purely reductionist view of biology.
Not sure of the relevance, though, since I don't think anyone actually operates under that assumption.
 

I view women like this. Take away the sexy hair, the makeup, the tits, the vagina, the fact you want to put your penis inside her orifices, and all the other shit that you're attracted to about them and what do you have? You basically have a leech that's going to drain your time, resources, complicate your life and try and manipulate you and stress you out.


Mmmhm. Of course. It rather goes without saying that if you "take away" all of a person's positive traits, that you'll be left with only the negative. Again, I'm not really sure of the relevance, since the same goes for pretty much any person or object on the entire planet. What is a masterwork painting, if you take away all the reasons someone would like it, other than a heavy piece of shit that means you've got to put a nail in your wall for?
I would hope that I value more in my wife than just her tits and vagina, lovely though those things are. Her wit, for example, or the way she completes my sentences. For sure, there are things that are "a drain on my resources"... but since she's the only person in the family with a job for now, I think I can let it slide.
Oh, yeah. My wife is the primary earner in our family - I'm a stay-at-home Dad right now.
 

Out of the thousands of women I've spoken to broken down, experimented with, observed, etc... They're all rather easily manipulated when you understand the basic laws of female attraction. Granted there are always exceptions and the human mind is extremely complex, deep down they're all basically the same. As are most men. As are msot people. Yet men have a predisposition to lead, control, and conquer. There's a reason why so few women are involved in politics and on the forbes list, because they're not built the same way as men, again there are always exceptions and any woman has the potential to be great, yet as a whole the female gender is inferior to the male gender. Now you can blame this on the fact that women are underpaid and have less options, etc, etc. Yet, it is that way because men have made it so, which validates my previous argument.


Isn't it infinitely more likely that you've simply only ever found yourself in situations that confirm your bias because you're always looking for an easy mark? Isn't infinitely more likely that you find women easy to manipulate because you're a predatory human who seeks out vulnerable women? Isn't it infinitely more likely that your opinions are shored up with a staggering amount of confirmation bias, given the typical pick-up artist's M.O. is to hit on as many women as possible, hoping to strike "gold"?

Isn't it infinitely more likely that you see the world the way you do because to look at it otherwise for even an instant would mean the total and utter collapse of the entire personality you've contructed as your ideal of the perfect man?

#99 Ali

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 03:48 PM

I would hope that I value more in my wife than just her tits and vagina, lovely though those things are.

The temptation to wake the Boy up and ask if he values anything else is so strong right now. *Sigh*



#100 Nymh

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 03:58 PM


I view women like this. Take away the sexy hair, the makeup, the tits, the vagina, the fact you want to put your penis inside her orifices, and all the other shit that you're attracted to about them and what do you have? You basically have a leech that's going to drain your time, resources, complicate your life and try and manipulate you and stress you out.

 

It isn't realistic to only see the negative in women, unless you broaden it to include all people.  If you strip women of everything you like about them, of course there would be nothing left for you to like.

 

You don't have to take away Joe's penis to know that he's a drain on my resources.  Does that make him inferior to me?




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