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#76 Hawk

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 07:36 AM

Every place does have it's crazies, but few arm them.

If someone is so intent on causing destruction, access to arms is the least of their concerns.



#77 Bone

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 07:42 AM

If someone is so intent on causing destruction, access to arms is the least of their concerns.

 

That's a gross oversimplification, though. A lot of gun violence (especially suicide) occurs in the heat of the moment, or in an emotional outburst. If it wasn't so common for people to have immediate access to guns, this could potentially be prevented.



#78 Frizzle

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 07:42 AM

I think he meant, few arm them and also have a culture of gun violence*


Then he should explain his point better :p

#79 Guest_Kate_*

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 07:43 AM

Almost all countries world wide have guns readily available for purchasing, including the one you live in.

Here in Canada you need to have a license to have a hunting gun, and a restricted license for a handgun of any sort.
My husband is in the military and through the military is licensed to handle just about any weapon they give him, disarm bombs, travel anywhere in the world, but outside of his occupation he still had to get a license to buy a hunting rifle and to get his restricted license would be an even more difficult task for him. To visit other countries on his own time, he needs a normal passport like the rest of us.

I like it this way, of course. 



#80 Hawk

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 07:58 AM

That's a gross oversimplification, though. A lot of gun violence (especially suicide) occurs in the heat of the moment, or in an emotional outburst. If it wasn't so common for people to have immediate access to guns, this could potentially be prevented.

The suicide rate in the U.S. is in line with other developed nations, some of which have significantly tighter firearm restrictions.  There are other factors at play.  



#81 Bone

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:02 AM

The suicide rate in the U.S. is in line with other developed nations, some of which have significantly tighter firearm restrictions.  There are other factors at play.  

 

Suicide is complex, and it's incredibly difficult to establish causation, but there definitely seems to be a link between gun ownership and suicide rates.



#82 Dan

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:10 AM

The suicide rate in the U.S. is in line with other developed nations, some of which have significantly tighter firearm restrictions.  There are other factors at play.  

 

What about firearm related homicide?

 

firearm-OECD-UN-data3.jpg

(http://www.washingto...eloped-country/)



#83 Waser Lave

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:11 AM

Wtf is happening in Chile?



#84 stretch

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:20 AM

Chile has permitted firearm ownership with a ton of registration and psych checks, but there are thousands of guns out in Chile that are not registered. Sort of like the US' problem, I guess.



#85 Hawk

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:22 AM

Suicide is complex, and it's incredibly difficult to establish causation, but there definitely seems to be a link between gun ownership and suicide rates.

I can't really disagree with the link, but as you noted, it is very difficult to establish causation.  There are a lot of socioeconomic factors that could be an issue.  I wish I could access the study but everything I have found is behind a paywall.  Based on what I could find, though:

 

 

 

The study confirms that people with guns at home are no more likely to attempt to kill themselves - but they are more likely to succeed because they are more likely to use a gun, Dr. Eric Fleegler, a pediatric emergency medicine doctor at Boston Children's Hospital and instructor at Harvard Medical School, said.

 

I guess, more than anything, I'm trying to say that gun ownership does not affect attempted suicide rate.



#86 Bone

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:25 AM

I can't really disagree with the link, but as you noted, it is very difficult to establish causation.  There are a lot of socioeconomic factors that could be an issue.  I wish I could access the study but everything I have found is behind a paywall.  Based on what I could find, though:

 

 

I guess, more than anything, I'm trying to say that gun ownership does not affect attempted suicide rate.

 

Well, I'd guess that the survival rate for attempted suicides is a lot lower when guns are involved. :p



#87 Dan

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:27 AM

Wtf is happening in Chile?

 

 

Chile has permitted firearm ownership with a ton of registration and psych checks, but there are thousands of guns out in Chile that are not registered. Sort of like the US' problem, I guess.

 

Worth noting the graph doesn't include Mexico - which I would imagine is in a very similar state to Chile (lots of unregistered firearms).

 

Unfortunately # of unregistered firearms is always going to be speculative.



#88 Waser Lave

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:28 AM

Well I don't think enough people think of the children.



#89 Guest_Kate_*

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:30 AM

Well I don't think enough people think of the children.

Some people hate children >.> 



#90 Hawk

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 09:43 AM

Alright Dan,

 

I've been waiting to respond to your posts for a while now while I did some digging.  Guns per capita is an interesting statistic, but does not paint a real picture of gun ownership.  Shooting and hunting are huge hobbies, and people who own guns are likely to own multiple.  They're not a one-size-fits-all type of thing as certain firearms are better suited for certain applications.

 

 

 

study published in the Injury Prevention Journal, based on a 2004 National Firearms Survey, found that 20% of the gun owners with the most firearms possessed about 65% of the nation's guns. ... The number of households owning guns has declined from almost 50% in 1973 to just over 32% in 2010, according to a 2011 study produced by The University of Chicago's National Opinion Research Center. The number of gun owners has gone down almost 10% over the same period, the report found. [Source] 

 

The number of households owning guns is what interests me more. I found a bit of information which may interest you.  We're not quite as outlandish as you think when it comes to firearms.

 

Regarding the first plot: 

  • As already mentioned, guns per capita is a poor statistic.
  • The study did not consider Israeli and Swiss people who possess government owned guns.
  • There was an estimated minimum and maximum range; Yemen, for example, was 28.6 to a high estimate of 81.1.
  • When examining the raw data, high estimates for the US are 95.3 guns/100 people, meanwhile the Swiss are at 60.5 and Fins at 59.1.  Once again, showing that the U.S., while clearly having the most firearms per 100 people, is not significantly out of the ballpark when compared to other developed nations.  Link to the appendix from which your chart was created.

Regarding the second plot:

 

When it comes down to it, gun violence is a problem, but the U.S. is trending in the right direction.  The overwhelming majority of the problem comes in the form of handguns, and there does need to be better regulation in that regard.  How that would be implemented, I do not know.  



#91 Dan

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 10:08 AM

Alright Dan,

 

I've been waiting to respond to your posts for a while now while I did some digging.  Guns per capita is an interesting statistic, but does not paint a real picture of gun ownership.  Shooting and hunting are huge hobbies, and people who own guns are likely to own multiple.  They're not a one-size-fits-all type of thing as certain firearms are better suited for certain applications.

 

 

The number of households owning guns is what interests me more. I found a bit of information which may interest you.  We're not quite as outlandish as you think when it comes to firearms.

 

Regarding the first plot: 

  • As already mentioned, guns per capita is a poor statistic.
  • The study did not consider Israeli and Swiss people who possess government owned guns.
  • There was an estimated minimum and maximum range; Yemen, for example, was 28.6 to a high estimate of 81.1.
  • When examining the raw data, high estimates for the US are 95.3 guns/100 people, meanwhile the Swiss are at 60.5 and Fins at 59.1.  Once again, showing that the U.S., while clearly having the most firearms per 100 people, is not significantly out of the ballpark when compared to other developed nations.  Link to the appendix from which your chart was created.

Regarding the second plot:

 

When it comes down to it, gun violence is a problem, but the U.S. is trending in the right direction.  The overwhelming majority of the problem comes in the form of handguns, and there does need to be better regulation in that regard.  How that would be implemented, I do not know.  

 

I must applaud your factfinding - all of your points are agreeable.

 

Unfortunately I don't think it changes much. It's clear to see that firearm laws are failing in a number of countries around the world, and we should be thinking about how to reduce the number of people getting murdered by these weapons. 

 

It's reassuring to hear that it is trending in the right direction, but it's just disheartening to hear yet again of another mass murder by a mentally ill person with a registered firearm. Incidents like this shouldn't happen anywhere in the world. :/



#92 Frizzle

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 12:28 PM

It's reassuring to hear that it is trending in the right direction, but it's just disheartening to hear yet again of another mass murder by a mentally ill person with a registered firearm. Incidents like this shouldn't happen anywhere in the world. :/


The biggest killers in the world are cancer, heart disease and malaria. Those combined probably killed double the amount of people in the Isla Vista shooting in the time it took you to write that.

Admittedly it's sad, but it's a rarity, and not a contributing factor to societal decline, death rates or anything of particular importance.

#93 Waser Lave

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 12:33 PM

The biggest killers in the world are cancer, heart disease and malaria. Those combined probably killed double the amount of people in the Isla Vista shooting in the time it took you to write that.

Admittedly it's sad, but it's a rarity, and not a contributing factor to societal decline, death rates or anything of particular importance.

 

It doesn't really take away from your point but I'm pretty sure Malaria isn't even in the top 10 causes of deaths worldwide. ;)



#94 Frizzle

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 12:40 PM

7th biggest killer in developing nations :p

http://en.m.wikipedi...f_death_by_rate

Good enough for me.

#95 Hawk

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 04:51 PM

7th biggest killer in developing nations :p

http://en.m.wikipedi...f_death_by_rate

Good enough for me.

 

And now we're completely off topic about the shooting, but that link is interesting in that Tuberculosis 8th/9th on the list.  I did not expect that at all.



#96 Kat

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 05:54 PM

Saw this on reddit today. Excellent video.

 

 



#97 Mishelle

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 10:42 PM

Probably because most of its bullshit, fails to truly analyse any major issues, puts too much emphasis on stranger danger, is highly sexist and divisional?

It also unfairly uses a mentally ill psychopath, a true anomaly in society, as a poster boy for all men, everywhere.

 

Men feeling a sense of entitlement to women's bodies and attention is a major issue. No one is saying that all men harass women we're saying all women have been harassed by men.



#98 Romy

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 10:48 PM

Men feeling a sense of entitlement to women's bodies and attention is a major issue. No one is saying that all men harass women we're saying all women have been harassed by men.

Not to the extent that we want to kill women for "not surrendering their bodies to us".

I agree that the objectification of women is a problem, but Frizzle was pointing out that this psycho should be considered an outlier when talking about this issue.

 

And using a generalization as a rebuttal against a generalization isn't exactly sound reasoning.



#99 Mishelle

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 11:44 PM

Not to the extent that we want to kill women for "not surrendering their bodies to us".

I agree that the objectification of women is a problem, but Frizzle was pointing out that this psycho should be considered an outlier when talking about this issue.

 

And using a generalization as a rebuttal against a generalization isn't exactly sound reasoning.

 

 

No one ever said most men want to kill women. Again we're talking about women here.

 

Every woman I know has a story about a guy who won't take no for an answer, guys who will follow them on the street, harass them and in extreme cases sexually assault them. I don't understand why so many people chose to react with "notallmen" when the sad truth that women constantly have to deal with this as soon as they hit puberty. "wait but not all men" is not the point. The point is that it's a problem that needs to be addressed because it's not just women having to deal with this but young girls as well. I remember being as young as 14 and being followed on the streets by dudes asking me "if I need a ride" and it's brushed aside as normal. Women are taught to expect this kind of behavior. Me along with other women don't even want to go out without headphones because of men honking, screaming out of cars, and objectifying me. Yes this dude is not normal, not one is saying he isn't. What we're saying is that he is not alone in his views about women. Men often feel entitled to women's bodies and time he just took it to the extreme which is what happens when you let this kind of thinking fester. The thinking that women are nothing more than the gatekeepers to sex and that if you put in nice guy tokens sex will fall out and men will react with anger and even violence when they don't get what they want.

 

If we can actively critique the most extreme facets of feminism, why can't we inspect male masculinity without catching feels? Regardless of how you feel about gender and sexism, we need to have these conversations. And I think we need to reevaluate the way we often look at the world.


Edited by Mishelle, 26 May 2014 - 11:46 PM.


#100 Romy

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 11:54 PM

If we can actively critique the most extreme facets of feminism, why can't we inspect male masculinity without catching feels? Regardless of how you feel about gender and sexism, we need to have these conversations. And I think we need to reevaluate the way we often look at the world.

That's a double edged sword.

Bear in mind that this guy represented the "most extreme facets of male entitlement". I agree that this conversation needs to happen however, this should not be the catalyst for it.




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