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#101 Mishelle

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 12:00 AM

That's a double edged sword.

Bear in mind that this guy represented the "most extreme facets of male entitlement". I agree that this conversation needs to happen however, this should not be the catalyst for it.

 

Why shouldn't it be? Anyone who read the manifesto can see that this was a hate crime against women. Yes there are male victims and I'm not sweeping them under the rug but they were killed simply because he saw them as barriers to what he felt entitled to (women's bodies) and he's not alone. In this kind of weirdo MRA/PUA culture they socialize men to think of the world in these strange labels like "alpha men" and "beta men" they classify women as females and assign them numbers "I saw a chick at a coffee shop she was a high 6 or low 7" they completely objectify women and use them as props to measure their own self worth and this isn't a little group of people this is a huge industry, it's been portrayed on our media, it's all over the internet.

 

It's just annoying because this is what we have to deal with and we're tired of it. We want to have this conversation and men are either excusing it or reacting with extreme anger and in some cases threatening behavior. The creator of the #yesallwomen hashtag was repeatedly bombarded with racism, sexism and threats of rape just for trying to have this conversation. And it's not rare for this to happen every time a marginalized group tries to speak up we're met with "NOW IS NOT THE TIME GUYS!" well when will the time be? When another girl is stabbed for refusing a kid's invite to prom? When another woman has acid thrown in her face for rejecting a man's marriage proposal? When another woman is raped for being a "cocktease"? When exactly are we supposed to have this conversation?


Edited by Mishelle, 27 May 2014 - 12:01 AM.


#102 Tetiel

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 12:29 AM

If someone is so intent on causing destruction, access to arms is the least of their concerns.

I think the main concern is the lethality of a gun vs some other weapons. It is quick and able to be accurate at long range. I'm talking out of my ass because I've never fired a gun, nor even held one, but it is my understanding that it is much easier to kill someone with a gun than it is with a knife, sword, bow and arrow. A bow, for example, takes quite a bit of skill which most people do not possess. Due to the rarity of this skillset, mass killings with a bow would be presumably small (crossbows are also very scary, but much less deadly due to the time it takes to reload). There's a reason why we started using automatic weapons in war rather than muskets, bayonettes, and claymores. An interesting article on non-gun mass killings may be read here:

http://www.slate.com...c_weapons_.html

 

The word "amok" was described in the DSM-IV as a dissociative disorder. A person will without warning, grab a weapon (like a machete) and kill as many people as humanly possible in crowded areas. It often ends with what is essentially suicide by cop. It was deemed to be a very rare, culturally bound condition. However, doesn't this sound awfully familiar with the mass shootings we see lately? 

 

The point is yes, this will happen pretty much no matter what we do. We have hundreds of years of history to prove it if you dig deep enough. It's just that guns are much more dangerous than the alternative weapons, especially in the hands of one not properly trained. We will continue to have these incidences happen, but I swear the death toll will be much less if you limit the population's access to automatic weapons. It's just logical. It's harder to fight back or escape when you're facing a gun.



#103 Frizzle

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 02:23 AM

Men feeling a sense of entitlement to women's bodies and attention is a major issue.

Seems more cultural than gender related. I'm pretty sure it's not a major issue in most Western European/Scandinavian countries.

I think the main concern is the lethality of a gun vs some other weapons. It is quick and able to be accurate at long range. I'm talking out of my ass because I've never fired a gun, nor even held one, but it is my understanding that it is much easier to kill someone with a gun than it is with a knife, sword, bow and arrow. A bow, for example, takes quite a bit of skill which most people do not possess. Due to the rarity of this skillset, mass killings with a bow would be presumably small (crossbows are also very scary, but much less deadly due to the time it takes to reload). There's a reason why we started using automatic weapons in war rather than muskets, bayonettes, and claymores. An interesting article on non-gun mass killings may be read here:
http://www.slate.com...c_weapons_.html

The word "amok" was described in the DSM-IV as a dissociative disorder. A person will without warning, grab a weapon (like a machete) and kill as many people as humanly possible in crowded areas. It often ends with what is essentially suicide by cop. It was deemed to be a very rare, culturally bound condition. However, doesn't this sound awfully familiar with the mass shootings we see lately?

The point is yes, this will happen pretty much no matter what we do. We have hundreds of years of history to prove it if you dig deep enough. It's just that guns are much more dangerous than the alternative weapons, especially in the hands of one not properly trained. We will continue to have these incidences happen, but I swear the death toll will be much less if you limit the population's access to automatic weapons. It's just logical. It's harder to fight back or escape when you're facing a gun.



Seriously, it doesn't matter. Do you know how easier it is to make a bomb or chemical nerve agent, like mustard gas? Extremely, probably easier than getting a gun. Guns are just a bit more personal.

If people are serious and determined, they will find a way to kill masses of people, regardless of weaponry access. Firearms access is only a concern for individuals in abusive relationships, not the general public.

#104 Waser Lave

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 02:45 AM

Men feeling a sense of entitlement to women's bodies

 

I don't and I'm pretty sure that all of the men I know don't. Obviously harassment of women and abuse is a serious issue but saying things like that isn't helpful to the debate.



#105 Ali

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 02:50 AM

Seems more cultural than gender related. I'm pretty sure it's not a major issue in most Western European/Scandinavian countries.l

 

Reading through a lot of those #YesAllWomen tweets, I don't feel like a an awful lot of them are particularly major issues in the UK...

 

I don't and I'm pretty sure that all of the men I know don't. Obviously harassment of women and abuse is a serious issue but saying things like that isn't helpful to the debate.


But you're a badger.



#106 Waser Lave

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 02:52 AM

But you're a badger.

 

I was going to say something about interspecies relationships but that's too weird even for me so yeah...I'm actually a man. :p



#107 Ali

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 03:02 AM

I was going to say something about interspecies relationships but that's too weird even for me so yeah...I'm actually a man. :p


Oh, there is a line of too weird then. :p

#108 Eefi

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 03:04 AM

I've talked to men about this and all they want to talk about is how unfair it is to lump all men together and how they feel somewhat offended if a woman writes "often men do this and that".



#109 Waser Lave

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 03:06 AM

I've talked to men about this and all they want to talk about is how unfair it is to lump all men together and how they feel somewhat offended if a woman writes "often men do this and that".

 

Why should innocent men not be offended by being accused of abhorrent things? It's not only women who find harassment of women offensive. ;)



#110 Ali

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 03:07 AM

I've talked to men about this and all they want to talk about is how unfair it is to lump all men together and how they feel somewhat offended if a woman writes "often men do this and that".


Because it...is? I don't know any men who act in the way described in any of those tweets, and I'd say a lot more of my friends are men than women. I'd feel pretty defensive if anyone started tarnishing me because of the actions of what is actually the minority of women.

#111 Eefi

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 03:10 AM

Because it...is? I don't know any men who act in the way described in any of those tweets, and I'd say a lot more of my friends are men than women. I'd feel pretty defensive if anyone started tarnishing me because of the actions of what is actually the minority of women.

But this is the point. If you never did anything like this, don't feel like this is targeted at you. And people telling their stories do not have to put a disclaimer that says "this doesn't aim at men who are decent and understand that this is wrong because I'm afraid it'll hurt your feelings". That should be a given.


Edited by Eefi, 27 May 2014 - 03:10 AM.


#112 Waser Lave

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 03:15 AM

But this is the point. If you never did anything like this, don't feel like this is targeted at you. And people telling their stories do not have to put a disclaimer that says "this doesn't aim at men who are decent and understand that this is wrong because I'm afraid it'll hurt your feelings". That should be a given.

 

That's a silly and nonsensical argument. It's no different to saying that all black people are criminals (just because a small proportion of black people are criminals)...should innocent black people not be offended by that? Tarring 50% of the world's population with one brush (no pun intended) is not helpful.



#113 Eefi

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 03:23 AM

That's a silly and nonsensical argument. It's no different to saying that all black people are criminals (just because a small proportion of black people are criminals)...should innocent black people not be offended by that? Tarring 50% of the world's population with one brush (no pun intended) is not helpful.

That's also the point. None of the stories that make sense say "all men". It was not worded like this and it was not intended to shame the ones that have done nothing wrong. Yet, many still feel offended and at the end of the day we spend more time talking about how it could have been said differently to not offend some of you than talking about the actual problem.

 

I'm going to leave this here: (source)

 

This exact fucking entitlement bullshit is exactly part of the issue that caused the shooting. I hope you realize that. I have 0 time to fuck around with people lording Their Opinions over me as if that fucking matters at all compared to voicing my disapproval of fucking entitlement. It’s so fucking incredible. Me talking about awful things men do is going to have zero impact on how men are treated, except to perhaps let a woman or man know he’s not alone when facing horrible sexist issues. Sorry, but that’s a bullet I’ll take.

Also from the same page

 

I wish more men saw women in distress, and instead of going “this makes ME upset because they’re mad that men murder them, I am slightly ruffled and feel somewhat personally attacked!”  that they would say something like “we need to put those assholes in their place and teach them to not act entitled towards women.”


Edited by Eefi, 27 May 2014 - 03:27 AM.


#114 Dan

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 03:30 AM

It's official everyone, misogyny is being fought by misandry!
 

Spoiler


Currently trending on twitter: #KillAllMen



#115 Waser Lave

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 03:37 AM

That's also the point.

 

What is also the point? You keep saying that what people say is 'the point' but I don't actually know what you're trying to claim to be 'the point' in those posts and I can't actually see anything which could constitute 'a point' to support your argument in those posts. :/

 

None of the stories that make sense say "all men". It was not worded like this and it was not intended to shame the ones that have done nothing wrong. Yet, many still feel offended and at the end of the day we spend more time talking about how it could have been said differently to not offend some of you than talking about the actual problem.

 

"Men" and "all men" is exactly the same thing. It may not be "intended to shame the ones that have done nothing wrong" but it does and it is offensive to many of us who actually agree with the intention of that particular campaign.



#116 Dan

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 04:13 AM

That's also the point. None of the stories that make sense say "all men". It was not worded like this and it was not intended to shame the ones that have done nothing wrong. Yet, many still feel offended and at the end of the day we spend more time talking about how it could have been said differently to not offend some of you than talking about the actual problem.

 

 

If you want to talk about the issues, let's talk about the issues and disregard gender completely.

 

How do we stop people (male and female) molesting children?

How do we stop people (male and female) sexually assaulting other people?

 

---

 

Personally I'm saddened that the feminist movement has jumped on this case and is now attempting to convince whoever will listen that this single disturbed individual's mentally unbalanced thoughts and feelings are reciprocated by men all over society. 

 

I urge you all to call on your common sense and remember that this is not the case, and we (as men) reserve the right to be offended by this attempt to spread this hate speech. 

 

It is very easy for anyone who is truly egalitarian to realise that there are issues on both sides, and the more time we spend fighting over whether more men or women are at fault, the less time we spend fixing the deeply-rooted societal issues highlighted by events like this mass-murder. Let's band together and stop sexual assault, murder, child molestation by both genders rather than focussing on one side or the other.

 

The problem is that I feel not many people are actually interested in discussing these issues, and are unfortunately more interested in simply putting down the opposite gender (or the same gender, in some cases). This is misogyny / misandry.

 

-----

 

Consider the following:

  • #1 Let's teach all children at a young age that there are boundaries that must be respected when interacting with other people, and about issues like sexual assault and how to protect themselves against these.

vs

  • #2 "Women are taught how to avoid rapists their whole lives. Let's teach men not to rape."

Which one do you think is the fairer comment?

 

#2 focusses solely on the "men-raping-women" issue and implies that men (all men) are brought up with some animalistic inhibition to rape whomever he sexually desires. Not just that - but it creates a divide between men and women which can only further separate us. I can totally see why this would be offensive.

 

Can you see how these 16 words can damage the broader argument?

 

Food for thought.



#117 Bone

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 05:21 AM

If you want to talk about the issues, let's talk about the issues and disregard gender completely.

 

How do we stop people (male and female) molesting children?

How do we stop people (male and female) sexually assaulting other people?

 

---

 

Personally I'm saddened that the feminist movement has jumped on this case and is now attempting to convince whoever will listen that this single disturbed individual's mentally unbalanced thoughts and feelings are reciprocated by men all over society. 

 

I urge you all to call on your common sense and remember that this is not the case, and we (as men) reserve the right to be offended by this attempt to spread this hate speech. 

 

It is very easy for anyone who is truly egalitarian to realise that there are issues on both sides, and the more time we spend fighting over whether more men or women are at fault, the less time we spend fixing the deeply-rooted societal issues highlighted by events like this mass-murder. Let's band together and stop sexual assault, murder, child molestation by both genders rather than focussing on one side or the other.

 

The problem is that I feel not many people are actually interested in discussing these issues, and are unfortunately more interested in simply putting down the opposite gender (or the same gender, in some cases). This is misogyny / misandry.

 

-----

 

Consider the following:

  • #1 Let's teach all children at a young age that there are boundaries that must be respected when interacting with other people, and about issues like sexual assault and how to protect themselves against these.

vs

  • #2 "Women are taught how to avoid rapists their whole lives. Let's teach men not to rape."

Which one do you think is the fairer comment?

 

#2 focusses solely on the "men-raping-women" issue and implies that men (all men) are brought up with some animalistic inhibition to rape whomever he sexually desires. Not just that - but it creates a divide between men and women which can only further separate us. I can totally see why this would be offensive.

 

Can you see how these 16 words can damage the broader argument?

 

Food for thought.

 

Dan, you're acting ridiculous.

 

You're completely ignoring the fact that the vast majority of rapes, sexual assaults, and murders are perpetrated by men. Men don't need to be taught how to protect themselves from rape, and women don't need (as extensively as men do, at least) to be taught not to rape. To reach equality in a system that is so profoundly skewed against women, it's necessary to fight for women's rights. 

 

This isn't to say women can't be individually guilty of any of these crimes. But, on a systemic level, male entitlement and constructs of masculinity lead to the majority of these crimes being committed by men, and the broader oppression of women.

 

Feminism is about dismantling the societal construct that men should hold authority over women. Yes, the patriarchy negatively affects men as well. Men should be feminists too. But the reality is that the patriarchy hurts women significantly more than it hurts men when it comes to issues of sexual agency.

 

You're taking feminism's stance against the patriarchy personally. Feminism isn't about individuals, and feminists don't believe that all men are rapists.

 

 

@Ivysaur - Why isn't the gender-driven murder of a woman-hater a good catalyst to talk about feminism and male entitlement ??? People talk about this guy like he was "crazy" and his motives were a mystery, but he explicitly said that he killed because he felt that he was entitled to women and wasn't getting them. "Not all men" will kill when women don't give them what they want, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed. It's like gun safety - not all gun owners will commit mass murder, but when one it occurs it's sure as hell going to be a catalyst for further discussion.



#118 iomega

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 06:49 AM

You're completely ignoring the fact that the vast majority of rapes, sexual assaults, and murders are perpetrated by men.

 
Do you have a source for that?
 
An NISVS report in 2010 found that over the course of 12 months there were 1,270,000 female rape victims and 1,267,000 male victims that were forced to penetrate.
 
Wondering why it's not male rape victims? It's because according to the CDC the only was for a woman to commit rape is for her to penetrate someone vaginally, anally, or orally. So a woman forcing a man to penetrate her isnt considered a rapist.
 
(Tables 2.1 and 2.2: http://www.cdc.gov/v...port2010-a.pdf)
 

Men don't need to be taught how to protect themselves from rape

 
Are you serious?
 
Out of 2,730 youth victims of staff sexual conduct 92% of them were female staff on male youth. NINETY TWO PERCENT. And you think males don't need to be taught how to protect themselves? Bullshit.
 
Oh btw, 91% of those 2,730 youth victims were male.

(Table 11, http://www.bjs.gov/c...f/svjfry09.pdf)
 

women don't need (as extensively as men do, at least) to be taught not to rape


Remember those 1,267,000 male victims that were forced to penetrate? 79.2% of those males reported that the rapist (yes rapists, cuz that's what they are) was female.
 
That means that over that 12 month period, around 40% of rapes were female-on-male.
 

Feminism is about dismantling the societal construct that men should hold authority over women.


By what? Making it so that women now hold the authority? If you really want gender equality, then feminism isnt the way to go about it - at least not in the form it's now taken.


Edited by iomega, 27 May 2014 - 06:51 AM.


#119 luvsmyncis

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 06:50 AM

You're completely ignoring the fact that the vast majority of rapes, sexual assaults, and murders are perpetrated by men.


That's offensive.

The vast majority of rapes, sexual assaults, and murders are perpetrated by some, but not all men. Probably mostly the black ones.

#120 Dan

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:07 AM

You're completely ignoring the fact that the vast majority of rapes, sexual assaults, and murders are perpetrated by men.

Source? (and nothing speculative, please - something proving your claim of "vast majority". 
 

Men don't need to be taught how to protect themselves from rape, and women don't need (as extensively as men do, at least) to be taught not to rape.


I would pay a lot of money to hear you tell that to a group of men who have been raped.

 

Do you think men are not at danger of rape?
 

This isn't to say women can't be individually guilty of any of these crimes. But, on a systemic level, male entitlement and constructs of masculinity lead to the majority of these crimes being committed by men, and the broader oppression of women.
 
Feminism is about dismantling the societal construct that men should hold authority over women. Yes, the patriarchy negatively affects men as well. Men should be feminists too. But the reality is that the patriarchy hurts women significantly more than it hurts men when it comes to issues of sexual agency.

This is where I just can't bear to read this anymore.

 

Enlighten me - exactly what is your definition of this "patriarchy"?

 

You're taking feminism's stance against the patriarchy personally. Feminism isn't about individuals, and feminists don't believe that all men are rapists.


The fact is that men and women in western, developed nations, are mostly equal - consider the vote, the equality around job opportunities and the mostly equal pay. If an overbearing and controlling "patriarchy" did exist, how would we have ever got to this point?

 

In some cases (although I'm sure you're conditioned to believe otherwise!) women even have more opportunities than men - I suppose this is the "matriarchy", no? ;)

 

Forgive me, but it is just so hard for me to take this seriously when you've made such mistakes as the very obviously quoted portion above. If you do not recognise that men and women share the same risks as far as sexual assault, rape and these other issues go then you need to have a little think about just how equal you claim to want things to be.

---

And to those of you repping the posts made by the man-haters, care to step forward and share your thoughts rather than hiding behind the obvious choice? (I thought not)



#121 Casilla

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:10 AM

The kid was mentally ill.  It has nothing do with our culture or society, except perhaps that he did not get the mental healthcare he needed.

 

Supposedly he stopped taking his pills?  At that point, is the state supposed to step in?  Instinctively, I would say no, it is not, because I would not want the state to force someone to medicate against their will...unless they were a threat to society. And obviously we have a long way to go to identify who is truly a risk to society.  If that is possible at all.  So I do not know what the best solution to this kid's specific problem is.

 

When whatshisface in Norway killed all those kids in Oslo, and wrote his own damn manifesto, did anyone go, "Well, obviously conservatives and conservative policies are the cause of this."  Well...some people did, but it was not taken seriously, because it's ridiculous.  The man was obviously insane.

 

It was clear from his video that the kid was off his gourd.  Yes, the PUA, etc, culture is anti-women, but on the flip coin, often feminist culture is anti-men.  But if some chick posted a manifesto about patriarchal society and how she has been slighted by all the men in her life and how they are all pigs and blah blah blah in the same style that this kid did...and then goes and shoots up a bunch of men...am I going to say, "OMG feminism is to blame for this!!"?  No.  Because it's ridiculous.

 

Crazies gonna craze, you guys.



#122 Dan

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:13 AM

The kid was mentally ill.  It has nothing do with our culture or society, except perhaps that he did not get the mental healthcare he needed.

 

Supposedly he stopped taking his pills?  At that point, is the state supposed to step in?  Instinctively, I would say no, it is not, because I would not want the state to force someone to medicate against their will...unless they were a threat to society. And obviously we have a long way to go to identify who is truly a risk to society.  If that is possible at all.  So I do not know what the best solution to this kid's specific problem is.

 

When whatshisface in Norway killed all those kids in Oslo, and wrote his own damn manifesto, did anyone go, "Well, obviously conservative and conservative policies are the cause of this."  Well...some people did, but it was not taken seriously, because it's ridiculous.  The man was obviously insane.

 

It was clear from his video that the kid was off his gourd.  Yes, the PUA, etc, culture is anti-women, but on the flip coin, often feminist culture is anti-men.  But if some chick posted a manifesto about patriarchal society and how she has been slighted by all the men in her life and how they are all pigs and blah blah blah in the same style that this kid did...and then goes and shoots up a bunch of men...am I going to say, "OMG feminism is to blame for this!!"  No.  Because it's ridiculous.

 

Crazies gonna craze, you guys.

 

Thank you for saying exactly what should be on everyone's lips here.

 

All of this men vs women BS aside, Rodger was obviously mentally ill.

He is not an indicator of a normal person (or a normal man). 



#123 Magical

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:18 AM

This is seriously devastating stuff. I don't want to over think it as it's painful. All I can say is I'm sorry for the parents of the victims and the shooter. Something that should never have happened.


Thank you for saying exactly what should be on everyone's lips here.

 

All of this men vs women BS aside, Rodger was obviously mentally ill.

He is not an indicator of a normal person (or a normal man). 

 

I agree. While, yes, there are some misogynistic acts here, it's far from the most prominent one here. Firstly we have the gun issue, and secondly, the boy was seriously ill and traumatised. His act for 'vengeance' upon women is due to his mental condition, not by blatant choice.

 

His 'war on women' as some proclaim it really has little to do with sex and females. These are merely surface issues and I'm shocked that a large proportion of people who have been tweeting these messages can only see skin deep.



#124 Kat

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:20 AM

While I have enjoyed some tweets coming out recently, I have to agree that this killer was not a martyr for misogyny..

 

I'd like to make rambling videos about some hot button issue (maybe global warming or gay marriage) and say that's why I'm going to kill people, and go off on the murderous rampage.

Is that issue going to be the reason I killed people? Hell no, they're going to say on TV how I was a crazy psychopath who killed people just to do it.

 

The fact this his name is being spewed anywhere and everywhere is only going to spur more violence for those who are as crazy as him and want to make everyone know their name.



#125 luvsmyncis

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:27 AM

The fact is that men and women in western, developed nations, are mostly equal - consider the vote, the equality around job opportunities and the mostly equal pay.


"Mostly equal" = equal.

And to those of you repping the posts made by the man-haters, care to step forward and share your thoughts rather than hiding behind the obvious choice? (I thought not)


I repped Bone because he said you're acting ridiculous. I don't think 'man-haters' is a fair term. It's hurtful. I really love some men. Not all men, though. Just some.

I'd rather not share my thoughts on the feminism issue, though. I don't have sources for any of my claims, and I'm perfectly aware my personal experiences don't count for squat, so if I were to venture into any sort of debate, I'm clearly the loser. Also, I'm in the United States. It's already been generally agreed on that most of the things the people in the YesAllWomen hashtag aren't really an issue in the UK. It would be unfair for me to make sweeping statements about genders when it clearly doesn't apply to the decent folks who frequent this forum.


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