159 replies to this topic

[Cass]

Recently there have been numerous hunters going viral with their trophy photos, mostly in an extremely negative light. I'll bring in two examples, one of which is Kendall Jones who went viral this month, and Melissa Bachman. In response to the latter, this Buzzfeed post was placed and went viral too.

 

Now, I am really curious what your stance on hunting and your arguments for or against are. I am not inviting you all to mindlessly go bash hunters, I want a proper debate here.

 

Please keep in mind too that there's a difference between conservation hunting and recreational hunting.

 

Here's a pro-hunting website for you to browse through: click! (I'm sorry I couldn't find a better one, I guess the pro-ones don't really see the daylight much).

And here's an anti-hunting website for you, too: click!

 

To declare my own stance: I find conservational hunting 100% acceptable. We have things like pest control, animal protection (which occasionally involves killing off strays in case you never realized), so conservational hunting is not an exception for me. Especially hearing the experiences from my farmers family in law (we have three functional farms in the family, two vegetable farms and one cow farm) I find conservational hunting to be rather important. Living in the Netherlands, we don't have to deal with extreme® situations that would occur in American like killing off rabid wolves and bears, nor do we have the need to hunt animals for food; the only real 'threat' are geese (they are real aggressive sons of bitches ), so I'll admit that I don't know all the ins-and-outs, only of those in my own country.

 

But conserving by killing is really, very natural. You may absolutely question how much influence we as a human species must have on everything (because I feel often that we control too much), but nature is all about balance, and dying animals is an absolute important part of that. Other animal species keep each other's population in balance too, although mostly by survival and being each other's food. It might be a bit more complicated for humans but it comes down to the same principle; the geese are a threat to 'our' crops and thus a threat to our food supplies, so very strict official regulations have been put up in order to control it. Of course, every death of an animal is a pity (you bet I feel bad when I see a roadkill), but it is necessary.

 

Recreational hunting on the other hand I find absolutely despicable. Killing animals for fun is to me just as bad as killing people for fun. If you're a gunslinging sociopath leaving a trail of human corpses you get locked up for a good couple of years; why aren't the sociopaths that leave a trail of animal corpses for good fun locked up? There are SO many alternatives, like skeet shooting, shooting ranges and whatnot. Trust me, I love shooting too, the shooting range is the first thing I run to on a fair. It's fun, it's exciting, and I totally get the adrenaline rush a hunting session would give you. But it doesn't justify killing an innocent animal. 

 

One of the ladies (Kendall Jones) I gave as an example stated that she is a conservationist hunter (I haven't found an official statement by Melissa Bachman, but do know she hosts a TV-show so she may have stated her intentions on there. I simply don't know). But the problem I find with these two ladies is the proud photos. How often do you see police officers sitting next to shot-down criminals, smiling?

 

 

[Rocket]

I'm pro-hunting just because I like to eat deer/elk, and my brother hunts and he's awesome. It's always been a part of my family while growing up.

 

I am against hunting illegal and endangered animals though.

[talbs]

I am kind of on board with Rocket. Don't kill things that are endangered or illegal (like out of season).

 

Other than that, I have no problems, be it recreational or whatever the purpose. 

 

I own a gun. It is solely for protection/defense as I have never been hunting, despite being from an area where it is EXTREMELY popular.

[Dan]

Hunting for recreation and then preparing, cooking and eating the meat is absolutely fine in my book. In fact it's something I'd quite like to try at some point. 

[talbs]

Hunting for recreation and then preparing, cooking and eating the meat is absolutely fine in my book. In fact it's something I'd quite like to try at some point. 

I have only had deer meat, and I thought it was good, but it wasn't anything I had killed myself.

[Cass]

If killing humans were legal in the same fashion as recreational hunting, would you do that too?

[talbs]

If killing humans were legal in the same fashion as recreational hunting, would you do that too?

 

Haha realistically no, but there's a place in my head that doesn't think it's entirely a bad idea.

Edited by talbs, 01 July 2014 - 08:24 AM.

[Dan]

If killing humans were legal in the same fashion as recreational hunting, would you do that too?

 

That really depends on whether humans taste nice or not.

 

How can you be against hunting when the aim is to eat the animal? Do you not like surviving?

[DonValentino]

That really depends on whether humans taste nice or not.

 

How can you be against hunting when the aim is to eat the animal? Do you not like surviving?

 

Not really a realistic argument these days since you don't need to hunt to survive, you can walk down the street to the grocery store. 

[talbs]

Not really a realistic argument these days since you don't need to hunt to survive, you can walk down the street to the grocery store. 

 

Maybe you are on a budget or fancy a meat selection not offered at the grocery store.

[Cass]

 

Haha realistically no, but there's a place in my head that wouldn't think it was entirely a bad idea.

(Slightly off-topic, there are loads of people I believe are better off dead and I would like to have a hand in )

 

That really depends on whether humans taste nice or not.

 

How can you be against hunting when the aim is to eat the animal? Do you not like surviving?

Recreational hunting doesn't sound to me like the purpose is to eat the animal. Sure, people may do it afterwards, and I support that because that means the death won't have been in vain. But we don't need to hunt to survive. We have the ability to grow crops and herd cattle. If you like the taste of deer, why not buy it? Is it that hard to come by in America? (honest question, because it's pretty easy to get in the Netherlands/Germany). If you like using a gun, why not skeet shooting instead? Or paint ball even?

 

The reason I'm pro-cattle and not pro-hunting is because farms are controlled and strictly supervised environments (in first world countries...). Farmers know all their animals by name, get out of bed in the middle of the night to care for them when they are ill. I've seen multiple family members cry often because a cow they were fond of died (complications at giving birth or because they became ill and some other reasons). And when it's their time to go they are killed off as humanely and painless as possible. What I'm trying to say, these farm animals are treated with so much care, unlike the PETA videos try to tell you (I've seen enough farms to know that those images are highly exaggerated and most probably filmed in third world countries were regulations aren't properly set up).

 

Now I know (at least, I'm assuming) it's not the goal of pro-hunters to hurt/torture the animals they hunt, but realistically, animals don't always die right away when they are shot and thus suffer a lot before dying. Why not leave the food-supplies to professional businesses and replace animals with artificial targets for the recreational part of shooting?

[talbs]

Kind of cool that you can purchase deer meat where you live. Despite being in a heavily pro-hunting area, I feel like pork, beef, and chicken are pretty much the only meats that are readily available, specifically in our markets.

[Ali]

Conservation hunting I'm actually in 2 minds because it's a very artificial sort of balance that we're inflicting on nature. Most balance in nature comes from climate and food sources and the like rather than a species targeting another for reasons besides food. On the other hand, I understand why people condone it if it's benefiting humans. I also understand culling a species a bit to protect another, although I'm not sure that we're right to do that.

 

Recreational hunting, yes, if there's a purpose in addition to sport. I have no problem with people who enjoy hunting deer or pheasants or whatever else we hunt in this country if that carcass will then be put to use as food. Because venison is flipping delicious. I'm against fox hunting because there's no purpose to that besides sheer recreation and it's needlessly cruel.

 

But I grew up on a farm as a little'un, so I'm quite pragmatic about animals dying. It's not pleasant but hey, I like meat. And I don't think people should eat meat if they can't face where their food comes from. There was a bit of an outcry over here not long ago because of a butchers that had rabbits and pheasants and the like strung up in the window and people got all upset because they don't like to think that their dinner doesn't come in their nice hermetically sealed packaging, all filleted and ready for them. Not okay with the fact that your Sunday dinner was a tiny lamb that was slaughtered and then butchered into different cuts? Be a vegetarian.

[Cass]

I would also like to add, that when people recreationally shoot bears or lions and coyotes, more often than not they don't eat it. Bears mostly for the reason they're downright nasty (or so I've read) and coyotes and similar animals are full of parasites. What justifies them being shot then, if it's not to bring the shooter out of immediate danger or conservation? Note that there are parks that allow shooting the mentioned animals, so it isn't even illegal in my example.

[Dan]

Not really a realistic argument these days since you don't need to hunt to survive, you can walk down the street to the grocery store. 

 

Where you can then buy meat that was grown to be killed. What's worse, hunting an animal in the wild and eating it, or growing an animal to kill it for it's meat? Are both as bad as each other? 

 

Humans and other animals have hunted for millions of years, it is a fact of life. I find it difficult to understand how anyone could be against hunting for food* and still be a meat-eater.

 

 

 

Recreational hunting doesn't sound to me like the purpose is to eat the animal. Sure, people may do it afterwards, and I support that because that means the death won't have been in vain. But we don't need to hunt to survive. We have the ability to grow crops and herd cattle.

 

We don't need to eat meat to survive. Are you a vegetarian because of that?

 

 

The reason I'm pro-cattle and not pro-hunting is because farms are controlled and strictly supervised environments (in first world countries...). Farmers know all their animals by name, get out of bed in the middle of the night to care for them when they are ill. I've seen multiple family members cry often because a cow they were fond of died (complications at giving birth or because they became ill and some other reasons). And when it's their time to go they are killed off as humanely and painless as possible. What I'm trying to say, these farm animals are treated with so much care, unlike the PETA videos try to tell you (I've seen enough farms to know that those images are highly exaggerated and most probably filmed in third world countries were regulations aren't properly set up).

 

I think you are romanticising farming here a little bit. At the end of the day, farms grow animals just like plants - to yield whatever product they can give. In the case of cattle, that's milk, meat, leather and I'm sure a number of other things. 

 

But overall, you're missing the point of the word recreation - it's all about the things you're interested in. You, are clearly not interested in hunting...

 

Other people are, either through curiosity or through the fact it's in our genes, so as long as they

• aren't harming the environment by hunting (nothing endangered)
• plan to make use of the animal
• kill the animal in a quick, humane manner

then I personally don't see how you could argue against that.

 

Obviously, there are people who hunt for other reasons, but I don't condone that and I'm not arguing for that.

 

---

 

* - I think hunting for recreation where the animal is subsequently unused is wrong - there is no reason to kill something if you're not going to make use of it. If you want to test your target practice go to a shooting range.

[DonValentino]

Cassi I don't know how many cattle farms like that you think are left (at least in America), but the agriculture/meat business is getting incredibly corporate. There are tons of "farms" that just pump up cows and chickens with hormones and crowd them in cages and manufacture them like products. There is no love. Of course there are still family farms left, but their subsidies are drying up and costs are rising, they're struggling to stay afloat. 

[NapisaurusRex]

What's interesting about hunting in national parks is that if they had never started killing wildlife, it would have naturally been kept in check. There wasn't an issue until people decided there was an issue and started killing the predators, which created an influx of prey that started to destroy the scenery, then that had to be killed too.

Not really a realistic argument these days since you don't need to hunt to survive, you can walk down the street to the grocery store.

My household would not have eaten meat last fall if not for hunting. (We also forage, if you were curious.) There are plenty of people in my area and the area that we lived in before who relied on hunting/fishing/foraging to heavily supplement their meals. Yeah, there's grocery stores everywhere, but that's basically useless if you can't afford food or the gas to get there.

So yes, I believe in hunting for food, I don't believe in hunting for heads. I believe in moderate control of wildlife, but only because the damage that would be caused by allowing it to naturally go back in check would destroy things I want to see before I die. I would never ever ever eat a coyote. Gross.

[Irradium]

Pretty much all hunting is OK for me. People should be able to generally do whatever the hell they want, including hunting. It doesn't affect the way you live. It's pretty odd to kill for fun, in my opinion, but I don't really care.

 

I think there's got to be some kind of effort towards the humane treatment of what one is killing, otherwise that is in my mind morally wrong, and a bit twisted, allowing a living being to experience such pain.

 

 

If killing humans were legal in the same fashion as recreational hunting, would you do that too?

 

I would say no, that's definitely wrong, but you can't possibly even compare that to hunting an animal.

 

As for the point of hunting for food, now that we can farm animals easily then I can understand why you would think it's unnecessary, but what about animal hide? Fake leather is typically made out of plastics, insofar as I know - that means using a quickly diminishing supply of crude oil.

Edited by Irradium, 01 July 2014 - 08:55 AM.

[Lily]

Hunting is something I personally would never do, but that being said, I believe hunting for food should be okay, as long as the animals being hunted are not endangered or about to be endangered.

[Dan]

 

OK, he was joking. Put the pitchforks down lads.

[talbs]

Tell me you're kidding? Surely nobody can be this stupid.

 

That post isn't appearing for me. Deleted maybe?

[Irradium]

Tell me you're kidding? Surely nobody can be this stupid.

 

Yeah, I was. Sorry, I thought it was a somewhat obvious joke...

[Cass]

We don't need to eat meat to survive. Are you a vegetarian because of that?

Not a vegetarian, never said I was. Scientists have pretty good reasons to believe we are meant to eat meat through evolution. There's a reason vegetarians need extra supplements.

 

I think you are romanticising farming here a little bit. At the end of the day, farms grow animals just like plants - to yield whatever product they can give. In the case of cattle, that's milk, meat, leather and I'm sure a number of other things. 

I speak out of my own experiences. Ultimately, farm animals and hunting animals have the same goal; to be eaten. Why is it worse then that farm animals were born in a controlled environment, when they ultimately 'serve the same goal'?

Cassi I don't know how many cattle farms like that you think are left (at least in America), but the agriculture/meat business is getting incredibly corporate. There are tons of "farms" that just pump up cows and chickens with hormones and crowd them in cages and manufacture them like products. There is no love. Of course there are still family farms left, but their subsidies are drying up and costs are rising, they're struggling to stay afloat. 

As stated before, I don't know everything about the other countries ("so I'll admit that I don't know all the ins-and-outs, only of those in my own country." - first post), but my inlaws sure as hell don't have any trouble staying afloat with their businesses. Out of curiousity, have you visited a farm that inforced your opinion on that? 

I would say no, that's definitely wrong, but you can't possibly even compare that to hunting an animal.

What makes us so different from animals then? Because we have 'superior' intelligence? Biologically we are pretty similar. Why can't human recreational hunting be compared to animal recreational hunting?

Other people are, either through curiosity or through the fact it's in our genes, so as long as they

• aren't harming the environment by hunting (nothing endangered)
• plan to make use of the animal
• kill the animal in a quick, humane manner

then I personally don't see how you could argue against that.

People that kill random cats, dogs, birds etc in the streets are technically following those rules, assuming they make use of an animal, they're strays and it's legal in that specific county (as far as I'm aware of killing animals - and even bestiality - isn't illegal in the Netherlands, for example). I know a lot of those people don't make use of the animals they kill in the streets, but some do decide to eat the stray cats at home. There was even an 'artist' in the Netherlands who skinned her own cat to make a purse out of it, as a political statement. So, assuming a stray pet-like animal was killed following those rules, is that still morally acceptable?

[Irradium]

What makes us so different from animals then? Because we have 'superior' intelligence? Biologically we are pretty similar. Why can't human recreational hunting be compared to animal recreational hunting?

 

We are biologically similar to which animal? I can't think of any similarities between us and what we would typically hunt minus that we're both mammals.

 

And no, not because we have superior intelligence, but because less than 1% of all species (probably, I'm pulling that number out of my arse) kill others of the same species, and even then, it's for the greater good. I think even the insects that devour their mating partners do it for a reason?

[Cass]

As for the point of hunting for food, now that we can farm animals easily then I can understand why you would think it's unnecessary, but what about animal hide? Fake leather is typically made out of plastics, insofar as I know - that means using a quickly diminishing supply of crude oil.

Well, different environments call for different measurements. I don't condone Russians or Alaskians (lol is that a word) or Canadians or people in other cold areas to kill bears to use their hides for coats because indeed, using up our fossile fuels isn't that good of an alternative either. But cow leather is completely fine by me, because cows are very efficient animals. Milk, meat, gelatine, leather and there are some other products that are harvested from cows (my fiancee could recall them but he's not here now, so I don't know exactly. Sorry lol ). Wearing bear hide for fashion just doesn't really seem necessary to me