69 replies to this topic

[Galadriel]

What the FUCK?

 

Warning: content is disturbing.

 

 

(The content has been age restricted by youtube)

[Fikri]

I CAN'T SEE A DAMN THING

[Frizzle]

The St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department released cell phone footage Wednesday of the police shooting of Kajieme Powell, a 25-year-old black man killed on Tuesday in St. Louis, according to St. Louis Public Radio.

A convenience store owner called 911 on Tuesday when he suspected Powell stole drinks and donuts from his shop, according to a recording of the call. Another woman called to report Powell was acting erratically and had a knife in his pocket.

Two officers in a police SUV responded to the calls, the cell phone video shows. When the officers got out of their vehicle, Powell walked in their direction, yelling and telling them to shoot him already.

St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson said Tuesday that both of the officers opened fire on Powell when he came within a three or four feet of them holding a knife "in an overhand grip."

But the newly released cell phone footage undermines the statement, showing Powell approaching the cops, but not coming as close as was reported, with his hands at his side. The officers began shooting within 15 seconds of their arrival, hitting Powell with a barrage of bullets.

The St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department released the video and 911 calls, telling St. Louis Public Radio that it plans to act transparently.

The shooting death occurred less than four miles from where Michael Brown was fatally shot by a police officer in the suburb of Ferguson on Aug. 9.


The St. Louis Police Department did not immediately respond to a request for comment from The Huffington Post.

Dotson defended the officers in a television appearance later Wednesday, acknowledging the discrepancies between his Tuesday account and what the video revealed. Though Powell's hands were down by his sides, Dotson told CNN, he was moving toward the officer with a knife.

"The officers did what I think you or I would do, they protected their life in that situation," Dotson said.

CNN's Don Lemon and Chris Cuomo pushed Dotson on the officers' decision to use lethal force, rather than opting for an alternate form of defense like a Taser.

"Certainly a Taser is an option that's available to the officers, but Tasers aren't 100 percent," Dotson said. "So you've got an individual with a knife who's moving towards you, not listening to any verbal commands, continues, says, 'shoot me now, kill me now.' Tasers aren't 100 percent. if that Taser misses, that [individual] continues on and hurts an officer."

"In a lethal situation, they used lethal force," he added.

Source: http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5696546

TL:DR: you're wrong.

[Galadriel]

HAHAHA omg. Tell me you don't believe that it is justified to kill someone over colas and a bagel? Even if he was holding a knife, could they not have tasered him? Or shot him in the leg? There were a few police officers and one of him. They went way beyond what they had to do to ensure their safety. Way beyond. The fact that you are a police officer and condone this behaviour makes me nervous.

Edited by CountFurFur, 22 August 2014 - 12:31 AM.

[Romy]

He had a knife.

Not the best way to handle the situation but...he was armed.

 

It's sad but...not uncalled for.

HAHAHA omg. Tell me you don't believe that it is justified to kill someone over colas and a bagel? Even if he was holding a knife, could they not have tazered him? Or shot him in the leg? There were a few police officers and one of him. They went way beyond what they had to do to ensure their safety. Way beyond. The fact that you are a police officer and condone this behaviour makes me nervous.

....would you approach a police officer with a knife in your hand screaming "Shoot me now! Shoot me now!" and not expect to get shot...?

[Galadriel]

He had a knife.

Not the best way to handle the situation but...he was armed.

 

It's sad but...not uncalled for.

 

Did you watch the video? You people are fucked up if you condone taking a life in a situation like that. You are no better than the disgusting filth who killed him.

....would you approach a police officer with a knife in your hand screaming "Shoot me now! Shoot me now!" and not expect to get shot...?

 

I am not sure how true it is but I came across some claims that the man was mentally ill.

 

Also, to answer your question- I would expect to be shot because it is apparently socially acceptable now. That doesn't make it justified.

Edited by CountFurFur, 22 August 2014 - 12:34 AM.

[Frizzle]

For god sake, you can tell straight away you've never been in a high adrenaline rushed scenario like the above.

They dost kill him over some bagels or whatever, they shot him in self defence. They shot him because he ran towards them with a knife. What would you do in that scenario?

Tasers aren't 100% effective and there is a possibility that the barbs don't hit, or the volts aren't effective. Now I know officers are trained to shoot but hitting a moving target in a tiny area (I.E a leg compared to the torso) isn't always possible.

On top of that, shooting someone in the leg doesn't not always put the subject down, and if it doesn't, you have two dead officers. Even I know, someone with no firearms training, you DO NOT let anyone who is carrying a blade within a few feet of you. It can go very wrong, very fast.

I don't see what having a few officers (first time I've seen the word few to describe two) on scene has to do with anything. Having more than one person there won't stop a blade going into your chest or throat.

I'm not surprised my rational behind my thoughts scare you. Logical thinking scares and hinders the ignorant.

Did you watch the video? You people are fucked up if you condone taking a life in a situation like that. You are no better than the disgusting filth who killed him.


I am not sure how true it is but I came across some claims that the man was mentally ill.

Also, to answer your question- I would expect to be shot because it is apparently socially acceptable now. That doesn't make it justified.

You've obviously never heard of suicide by cop techniques. It's not a surprise really.

[Galadriel]

For god sake, you can tell straight away you've never been in a high adrenaline rushed scenario like the above.

They dost kill him over some bagels or whatever, they shot him in self defence. They shot him because he ran towards them with a knife. What would you do in that scenario?

Tasers aren't 100% effective and there is a possibility that the barbs don't hit, or the volts aren't effective. Now I know officers are trained to shoot but hitting a moving target in a tiny area (I.E a leg compared to the torso) isn't always possible.

On top of that, shooting someone in the leg doesn't not always put the subject down, and if it doesn't, you have two dead officers. Even I know, someone with no firearms training, you DO NOT let anyone who is carrying a blade within a few feet of you. It can go very wrong, very fast.

I don't see what having a few officers (first time I've seen the word few to describe two) on scene has to do with anything. Having more than one person there won't stop a blade going into your chest or throat.

I'm not surprised my rational behind my thoughts scare you. Logical thinking scares and hinders the ignorant.

You've obviously never heard of suicide by cop techniques. It's not a surprise really.

 

1) Police should be trained to keep a clear head in a 'high adrenaline rushed scenario'.

2) Sure, tasers aren't 100% reliable (is anything?), but there were multiple officers- without a doubt enough of them to get the man down without killing him.

3) Claiming this guy was attempting suicide through the use of cops once again doesn't justify their behaviour.

[Romy]

Did you watch the video? You people are fucked up if you condone taking a life in a situation like that. You are no better than the disgusting filth who killed him.

 

I am not sure how true it is but I came across some claims that the man was mentally ill.

 

Also, to answer your question- I would expect to be shot because it is apparently socially acceptable now. That doesn't make it justified.

 

That's deflection Cronus. Address my point directly instead of insulting me.

And how can you tell if a man is "mentally ill" by looking at him? How do you tell if someone is high by looking at them? 

 

These cops did what their training taught them to do if they believed their lives, the lives of their partners, or the lives of civilians were in immediate danger.

2) Sure, tasers aren't 100% reliable (is anything?), but there were multiple officers- without a doubt enough of them to get the man down without killing him.

 

The voltage contained in 2 tasers is likely enough to stop a heart (that is getting tased by 2 tasers at the same time).

If they had tased him and he died, you'd still be making this thread expect the title would read "Cops tase man to death".

[Galadriel]

That's deflection Cronus. Address my point directly instead of insulting me.

And how can you tell if a man is "mentally ill" by looking at him? How do you tell if someone is high by looking at them? 

 

These cops did what their training taught them to do if they believed their lives, the lives of their partners, or the lives of civilians were in immediate danger.

 

Forget I said that there were claims he was mentally ill. I imagine the claims would have been made by the community who knew him. Whether he was mentally ill or not doesn't change the fact that that it is unjustified.

 

Can you can explain to me how it is is justified to kill someone when they could have been stunned or taken down (non-fatally)? Isn't that the entire purpose of tasers? Police all over the world use them, which means that they work and are effective.

[Frizzle]

You have never used a taser, stop bringing that up. It is not 100% effective and especially at such a short distance.

Yes, officers are trained to deal with these scenarios and they did just that. They acted responsibly, professionally and did a damn good job of protecting themselves and others.

If you knew about suicide by cop incidents, you'll know that people will attack and try and kill cops so that they'll be shot. This would obviously be going through their heads when they make that decision.

If you're American, I suggest you buy a long range taser and try it out on someone a few times. Minimise the distance each time and see if it's as effective. Come back with your results.

The voltage contained in 2 tasers is likely enough to stop a heart (that is getting tased by 2 tasers at the same time).
If they had tased him and he died, you'd still be making this thread expect the title would read "Pigs tase man to death".

To be fair, there's probably enough voltage in an iphone to kill someone. It's not the volts that kill someone's, it's the amps.

Tasers really only cause fatalities on people with heart defects or when their head hits the ground. Although these are very rare and in between (still a better alternative than a baton though).

[Romy]

Forget I said that there were claims he was mentally ill. I imagine the claims would have been made by the community who knew him. Whether he was mentally ill or not doesn't change the fact that that it is unjustified.

 

Can you can explain to me how it is is justified to kill someone when they could have been stunned or taken down (non-fatally)? Isn't that the entire purpose of tasers? Police all over the world use them, which means that they work and are effective.

 

Are saying that these officers had NO reason to believe that their lives were in danger?

 

Do you or do you not believe that this man would have stabbed a police officer had they not successfully subdued him?

[Galadriel]

You have never used a taser, stop bringing that up. It is not 100% effective and especially at such a short distance.

Yes, officers are trained to deal with these scenarios and they did just that. They acted responsibly, professionally and did a damn good job of protecting themselves and others.

If you knew about suicide by cop incidents, you'll know that people will attack and try and kill cops so that they'll be shot. This would obviously be going through their heads when they make that decision.

If you're American, I suggest you buy a long range taser and try it out on someone a few times. Minimise the distance each time and see if it's as effective. Come back with your results.

 

Please stop using my assumed ignorance as the only support to your arguments. It is weak.

Are saying that these officers had NO reason to believe that their lives were in danger?

 

Do you or do you not believe that this man would have stabbed a police officer had they not successfully subdued him?

 

Whether I believe he would have stabbed them or not irrelevant to what I am arguing, which is that they did not have to kill him in order to subdue him. Like I said, they had tasers and also did not have to fatally wound.

[Romy]

Please stop using my assumed ignorance as the only support to your arguments. It is weak.

 

Whether I believe he would have stabbed them or not irrelevant to what I am arguing, which is that they did not have to kill him in order to subdue him. Like I said, they had tasers and also did not have to fatally wound.

 

 

Here ya go! Washington post article about the tasers!

http://www.washingto...2647_story.html

 

The Taser discharges two probes at different angles. If one or both probes miss the target, the Taser will not work. Given that both the officer and the threatening person may be moving when the Taser is deployed, misses occur frequently. Even if both probes hit the target, one or both can become dislodged by movement, rendering the Taser ineffective. If the probes hit fatty tissue or loose clothing, the effectiveness is reduced. Lastly, some people, especially the mentally ill and those under the influence of drugs, are unaffected by the Taser, no matter how unlikely The Post thinks this is.

 

and

 

 

By all accounts, Mhai Scott was armed with a long-bladed knife and scissors. At close range, an edged weapon is just as deadly as a firearm. While Tasers have been used to subdue knife-armed subjects, Taser International’s own doctrine advises that an officer should anticipate failure and be supported by a colleague, with his firearm drawn, ready to shoot.

 

 

Anything else? Tasers are not 100% effective. Shooting someone in the leg or the arm isn't always an option.

Do you blame these officers for choosing the option that maximized their chances of survival whilst obeying protocol?

 

Whether I believe he would have stabbed them or not irrelevant to what I am arguing, which is that they did not have to kill him in order to subdue him. Like I said, they had tasers and also did not have to fatally wound.

Whether or not you think this man was capable of killing a police officer is EXTREMELY relevant to what you're arguing.

[Frizzle]

Please stop using my assumed ignorance as the only support to your arguments. It is weak.

You post ignorant statements, I will call you out on them.

You know nothing about firearms, tasers, high adrenaline situations, law enforcement, protocols, tactics, suicide techniques, mental health issues and so forth.

I suggest you gain a copious amount of knowledge in these areas or at least research them academically before becoming emotional and angry at situations you can't fully comprehend.

[Romy]

@CountFurFur

 

http://www.pfoa.co.u...ooting-to-wound

http://www.washingto...2647_story.html

 

[talbs]

Had he never committed larceny and threatened law enforcement he would be alive. There's no denying that, so why try to shift the blame?

Edited by talbs, 22 August 2014 - 03:06 AM.

[Bone]

Had he never committed larceny and threatened law enforcement he would be alive. There's no denying that, so why try to shift the blame?

Because the punishment of a crime should be proportional to its severity? Unless you want to go back to pre 19th-century punishment norms.

[talbs]

Because the punishment of a crime should be proportional to its severity? Unless you want to go back to pre 19th-century punishment norms.

 

He didn't get shot for stealing. He got shot for failing to comply with orders, thus endangering the lives of two men. You can defend him or anyone else all day. I mean it's relatively simple stuff. If I leave work today and am stopped by law enforcement with guns drawn and am told to stop, or be shot, I'll take the former. It doesn't have to be a matter of what's right or wrong. If you want to be gunned down for the sake of proving someone took their job a little too seriously on a given day, then be my guest. What's to say the other posters aren't right. If he had mental issues, maybe suicide by cop was something he had in mind.

Edited by talbs, 22 August 2014 - 05:23 AM.

[Waser Lave]

Were there other options open to the officers at the time to defuse the situation without resorting to lethal force? Perhaps. Would those other options guarantee to stop the person? Possibly not. At the end of the day the police officers are still human and they're trained to respond to volatile and dangerous situations (such as somebody threatening people with a knife in a public place) with deadly force if they deem it necessary. When people are put in that kind of situation where they have to make a split-second decision they're more than likely going to choose the option which has the best chance of stopping the threat and prioritises the safety of themselves and the public over the safety of an erratic person waving a knife around. They aren't superheroes, they're just regular people doing a dangerous job who, at the end of their shift, want to be able to go home and see their families so I don't see why some people expect them to do everything perfectly...

[NapisaurusRex]

This is pretty standard protocol. Cops defend themselves and protect the public against people who are failing to comply and who have weapons. I watched the video and saw nothing I didn't expect to see before watching it. It doesn't matter that there was more than one cop, knives are dangerous weapons and kill people. If I, someone who isn't a cop, were standing on the corner and someone came at me with a knife and didn't stop when I told them to, I'm within my rights to shoot them. It's self-defense.

If you're American, I suggest you buy a long range taser and try it out on someone a few times. Minimise the distance each time and see if it's as effective. Come back with your results.

I own a taser and have used it. There's plenty of people that tasers have a minimized effect on and there's no way to know that they aren't affected by it until after it's failed to have the desired effect. (lots of words just to say I'd rather have the knife than the taser.)

[talbs]

I've watched it again and again. It amazes me how stupid people are. He was begging for it and ultimately got it. Like I said in my earlier post, there are different ways to prove a point. People warned him and told him he was crazy. They were laughing and making a spectacle out of the whole ordeal. He was told many times to drop the knife and still advanced toward them aggressively, so the officers did as they were trained to do; eliminate the threat.

Edited by talbs, 22 August 2014 - 06:08 AM.

[Karyx]

The way I normally go about this is look at it as if I were in their shoes.

 

If I were the guy holding a knife, advancing toward the police after being told to put it down, and yelling "Shoot me now", I'd expect to get shot. That's how, as a rational person, I'd expect the situation to turn out.

 

If I were a police officer faced with a man advancing with a weapon, among people, I'd tell them to stop and drop the knife. Should they fail to do that and continue advancing, all the while provoking me with "Shoot me now, kill me now" with no sign of stopping, I'd shoot. The job is to make the call that will protect the public. What you're forgetting is that these officers were called to the scene knowing this man could be potentially dangerous, and had already committed a crime. 

Had he actually stopped advancing and yelling at the police and instead dropped the knife, then yeah he would be facing criminal charges. The original post seems to have missed the fact that he hadn't stopped when told to do so. What would have made them "Disgusting pigs" is if the man had already put the knife down and surrendered, then proceeded to shoot him anyway. I'm not sure what police protocol is exactly, but I'm certain they were within their bounds to do as they did since it was a deadly weapon. We can all say things about this now in hindsight, but for those officers, they had to make a call and I'm sure it's not one they will live with easily.

[Bone]

He didn't get shot for stealing. He got shot for failing to comply with orders, thus endangering the lives of two men. You can defend him or anyone else all day. I mean it's relatively simple stuff. If I leave work today and am stopped by law enforcement with guns drawn and am told to stop, or be shot, I'll take the former. It doesn't have to be a matter of what's right or wrong. If you want to be gunned down for the sake of proving someone took their job a little too seriously on a given day, then be my guest. What's to say the other posters aren't right. If he had mental issues, maybe suicide by cop was something he had in mind.

 

I just question whether shooting him to death was the only or best option available to the officers. I'm not presuming to know anywhere close to enough information about the situation, law enforcement protocol, options to officers, etc to have an answer, but I think in any situation where is anyone is shot down for being a "threat" it's prudent to review what happened, both within the law enforcement system and publically. No, I don't expect cops to be infallible, but that doesn't absolve them of culpability for their actions.

[Frizzle]

How can you form an opinion on the matter if by your own admission, you don't know all the available information?