116 replies to this topic

[Hawk]

I was one rank above my partner, I was getting less money, I was working more than he was (and forget the 40hours/week talk, that is "load of bs"), and yet we had the same employer, the Government, who was supposed to be above all suspicious when it comes to gender equality.

 

And this happens everywhere. Why is my sister in law earning less than my brother when they both work in a insurance company, for the same boss, in the same field, in the same team, doing the exactly same work 65 hours a week? They both have the same qualification. The child she has is the same that he has. When the kid needs to go to the doctor, they both go. Where's the reasonable explanation for that?

Congrats on the anecdotal evidence.  Make the sample size a hell of a lot larger, call it a study, and get published.  Ask bosses the hard questions as well to try and gather their insight on the topic.  Bonus points if it is a woman as a boss with a woman subordinate that is being paid less than a male coworker performing the same duties.

 

Also, going to go out on a limb, and say that the two have a different set of qualifications, one brings more to the table than the other (Difference notable by a manager, does not show up on a resume), or one happens to have a better working relationship with their boss.

 

 

We're basically identical people. We've been in every course together and I definitely do worse in school. I'm nearly failing out at this point. 

I found that to be true as well.  People that did well as students were often the last ones to find full-time jobs and in some cases accepted lesser offers.  The kids that barely scraped by had a full time job lined up going into their senior year at a place with a reputation for paying out.

[Mishelle]

"I've never seen it happen" = perfectly acceptable

"It happens to me" = unnacceptable and anecdotal

I literally can't even rn

[Mishelle]

We've gone over race and gender discrimination in my business management courses and I just want to let you guys know that women not negotiating isn't the issue. Stereotypes are the issue. In the work force being aggressive and Type A is a trait that men are praised for having and that women are penalized for having. If women are aggressive in negotiating for higher pay it is seen as unladylike. There's a lot of intentional and unintentional bias against women in the work force that has no factual basis. For example both men and women overwhelmingly prefer male managers over female managers, even though women tend to be better managers than men. Nitro has been posting facts all through this thread so I'm not gonna repeat them but some of you seem misguided on how deeply ingrained sexism and racism is within our work force.

[Dan]

Unfortunately this has devolved into another feminism thread.

 

What, exactly, is the topic up for debate here? This is the debate section, after all.

[Frizzle]

pay gap

[DonValentino]

I thought we were talking about how little girls shouldn't swear

[Kaddict]

Could you point me to where firefighters and other high-strength jobs come into the post you replied to? Because that's one hell of an assumption for the sake of making an argument.

She is in the military, on the front lines (I think she said that) which means tons of gear, gotta carry wounded people. It is similar to firefighters/police.

 

 

In this case, you'll just have to believe my word when I say I can drag a 250lb dude, despite my C cup breasts. And it's not easy for any one, woman or man, not only for gear we carry or the injuries we have take care.

And, I can't speak for other countries, but here anyone that wants to join any kind of "force" is obligated to hard physical/psychological tests, independently of their gender. Besides, I wouldn't be there if I hadn't pass it with success. That alone should be enough for qualify me and level me with my comrades and not the fact that I don't have a penis.

 

Wait... "For female firefighters and policewomen"? So men don't have to do it? Making a women take such tests and not make men doing it also it's discriminating too, no?

 

I totally believe you. There are tons of women in the world way stronger than most men. But, that is the exception. And as far as strength tests go, men and women both have to pass the tests, it is just an easier requirement. ie a many would have to run a mile and carry a 200lb body for 500yds in 10 min whereas a women would run a mile and carry a 75lb body in 12 min. I made up that example, but it is pretty similar. Also, I think it differs precinct/district/state etc. But if you can do the same stuff the dudes do, and do the same stuff the dudes do, there really is no reason for a discrepancy (though, I don't know all the factors)

[DonValentino]

@nitro

 

[Hawk]

@Hawk I find it weird that you first attack anecdotal evidence and declare it invalid, then turn around and use anecdotal evidence to back up another claim. 

One has been thoroughly researched, the other has not.

 

https://www.google.c...alary engineers

[Katya]

lol

[Mishelle]

Recently many companies have moved away from factoring GPA in employment. Google doesn't factor GPA at all in their hiring process.

Edited by Mishelle, 24 October 2014 - 07:21 AM.

[Eagles]

Recently many companies have moved away from factoring GPA in employment. Google doesn't factor GPA at all in their hiring process.

You certainly could find information that supports the idea that companies are moving away, but then again many companies still do use it. I would say that it still has an impact on the employment process.

[Mishelle]

You certainly could find information that supports the idea that companies are moving away, but then again many companies still do use it. I would say that it still has an impact on the employment process.

Which is dumb considering GPA is one of the most common things people lie about on their resumes.

[Eagles]

I don't think perfect equality is anything you could ever really obtain. People by nature like to categorize things.. whether it be black and white, tall and short, or man and woman, and human nature seems to make that there must be a dominant party. No matter what people are ALWAYS going to look at men in the dominant role. Speaking in biblical terms, wasn't it Eve that was created from Adam's rib? Didn't Adam name all the animals? Didn't Eve first eat the fruit? Even back in bible times, men dominated women. Although of course I think that equality would be great, I just don't see it as something that can ever be attainable, so I won't waste my time arguing for it. I just never see it changing in my lifetime. 

[Dan]

@nitro
 

 

Barriers in science[edit]

In 2006, the United States National Academy of Sciences found that women in science and engineering are hindered by bias and "outmoded institutional structures" in academia. The report Beyond Bias and Barriers says that extensive previous research showed a pattern of unconscious but pervasive bias, "arbitrary and subjective" evaluation processes and a work environment in which "anyone lacking the work and family support traditionally provided by a ‘wife’ is at a serious disadvantage."^[74] Similarly, a 1999 report on faculty at MITfinds evidence of differential treatment of senior women and points out that it may encompass not simply differences in salary but also in space, awards, resources and responses to outside offers, "with women receiving less despite professional accomplishments equal to those of their male colleagues."^[75]

Research finds that work by men is often subjectively seen as higher-quality than objectively equal or better work by women compared to how an actual scientific review panel measured scientific competence when deciding on research grants. The results showed that female scientists needed to be at least twice as accomplished as their male counterparts to receive equal credit^[76] and that among grant applicants men have statistically significant greater odds of receiving grants than equally qualified women.^[77]

I have no interest in debating the subject matter here, I just want to warn you: copying and pasting large blocks of text from Wikipedia might be getting you through high school right now, but it ain't gonna fly here.
 
You need to be providing, at best, primary or at least, secondary, sources and then explaining what conclusion you came to. Not the conclusion the Wikipedia entry author came to.
 
Also, if you're debating the wage gap that exists right now then the more recent the study, the more valuable it'll be to the argument. Your twice-preached bolded MIT sentence is 20 years old - the last data point the referenced source analyses is 1994.

[Adam]

The pay gap between men and women, as well as between those of color, as an institution, is a social injustice and needs to be stopped.

[Adam]

Wikipedia is actually a pretty good source because most if not all of their claims are backed up by sources, which you can find by clicking the small number. It's not like someone completely made it all up.

 

I like to think the debate section as writing a college paper. My professors have never given me the opportunity to use wikipedia as a source because anyone can edit any article at any time. Wikipedia is a good medium to find direction, and primary sources, but not as a reference point itself.

[Dan]

Wikipedia is actually a pretty good source because most if not all of their claims are backed up by sources, which you can find by clicking the small number. It's not like someone completely made it all up.

 

However, your point is taken. I will do additional research with primary and secondary sources and see what else I can come up with. The papers I have found are really really dense, so it might take a while.

 

Wikipedia is a tertiary source:

 

 

 

A tertiary source is an index and/or textual consolidation of primary and secondary sources

 

You should be providing a tertiary source, not referencing one.

[Eagles]

Just because you don't think you will see true equality in your lifetime is not an excuse to do nothing. At the very least, you should seek to find truth in issues like these and form a solid opinion on it. Being a bystander is as bad or worse than being the ones perpetuating the injustice.

Not true, and this really should not be the attitude people have. Humans are humans, and one should not dominate another based on gender. Much work has been done with feminism and we have come a LOOONG way from the medieval treatment of women. We still have a long way to go, so all humans, men and women, should continue to fight for equality.

Once again, being a bystander of injustice is as bad or worse than being the ones perpetuating the injustice. Did Martin Luther King Jr. expect to find equality in races in his lifetime when he called for justice? Did Gandhi expect to find peace on the entire world in his lifetime when he called for reform? Did Cesar Chavez expect to bring complete justice to migrant farm workers in his lifetime? Despite there huge obstacles in the way of true justice, these visionaries did their best to bring a just society in the world during their time, and we should respect that. Although there is a long way before the world can be just, we should fight for it anyways.

I believe in choosing your battles. Feminism is not a battle i choose to fight. Is it really that bad of an issue? There are so many more terrible things in the world to worry about

[Adam]

I believe in choosing your battles. Feminism is not a battle i choose to fight. Is it really that bad of an issue? There are so many more terrible things in the world to worry about

Yeah it is an issue -- why shouldn't men, and women with the same job qualifications and time with the company make the same amount of money as a man?

[Ali]

Unfortunately this has devolved into another feminism thread.

It's almost like you're saying you DIDN'T enjoy the last one @Dan. And that can't be true. We had so much fun and people had such reasonable and sensible opinions that didn't make us hate the world.

I believe in choosing your battles. Feminism is not a battle i choose to fight. Is it really that bad of an issue?

In a word, yes. I think it's a pretty big issue that my opportunities are different just for being a woman.

Feminism is largely reliant on men, much like race discrimination is largely reliant on white people (in the western world). It needs massive support from the dominant majority, because if we could gain a truly equal footing by ourselves, it would have happened by now.

You think feminism isn't an issue because/if you've never feared the night, just for being a woman. You've never worried about your career prospects if you have children, just for being a woman. You've never wondered if or known that you're being paid less, JUST because you're a woman. I could go on and on.

I'm not bothered because the UK is ever so civilised and I can't be discriminated against for my gender. Sucks for most of the world.

[Kat]

Speaking in biblical terms, wasn't it Eve that was created from Adam's rib? Didn't Adam name all the animals? Didn't Eve first eat the fruit? Even back in bible times, men dominated women.

 

lolwat.jpg

 

Because the book of Genesis is historical fact?? 

[Eagles]

lolwat.jpg

 

Because the book of Genesis is historical fact?? 

Right... i shouldn't have assumed most people here believe in the word of God. 

 

It's almost like you're saying you DIDN'T enjoy the last one @Dan. And that can't be true. We had so much fun and people had such reasonable and sensible opinions that didn't make us hate the world.
In a word, yes. I think it's a pretty big issue that my opportunities are different just for being a woman.

Feminism is largely reliant on men, much like race discrimination is largely reliant on white people (in the western world). It needs massive support from the dominant majority, because if we could gain a truly equal footing by ourselves, it would have happened by now.

You think feminism isn't an issue because/if you've never feared the night, just for being a woman. You've never worried about your career prospects if you have children, just for being a woman. You've never wondered if or known that you're being paid less, JUST because you're a woman. I could go on and on.

I'm not bothered because the UK is ever so civilised and I can't be discriminated against for my gender. Sucks for most of the world.

You act like women aren't getting paid... and they have to struggle to even get by. Some women make more than men. How do you think those men feel?

[Kat]

Right... i shouldn't have assumed most people here believe in the word of God. 

 

 

So.. let me get this straight. You don't believe in evolution, and you think we all originated from Adam and Eve and you take the entirety of the bible as historical fact?

 

Sorry if I'm derailing the thread, I just want to clarify.

[Eagles]

So.. let me get this straight. You don't believe in evolution, and you think we all originated from Adam and Eve and you take the entirety of the bible as historical fact?

 

Sorry if I'm derailing the thread, I just want to clarify.

You are correct. I am a follower of God. 

Edited by Eagles, 24 October 2014 - 04:33 PM.