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#1 CaptainDantes

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 02:41 PM

@cersei brought up an important topic from the news in her status and @Swarley thought we should move the debate to a thread.

Unfortunately, I'm someone who never understood the real effects of rape on someone's psyche until it hit way too close to home and a very close friend of mine was raped. Just seeing how her whole world changed really struck me and actually made me quite depressed. It made me realize what a large problem it is in our society. With "slut shaming" and such - women don't even want to speak out about it after the fact. Newspapers have reported nearly 1 in 5 women in the US have experienced at least an attempted rape in their lifetime.

It is important to note (because my younger self didn't understand this before either) that rape is not something that has to be violent or the result of rufies.

Once I learned what happened to my friend I started researching the subject more. This is when I found out about triggers. These are things - words, actions, pictures - that could make you flashback and literally experience the assault all over again. I think it's a form of PTSD (but correct me if I'm wrong).

I've only scratched the suface of the problem in this blurb. I don't want people to think that I only think rape happens to women - it happens to men and children too. But I believe women are the majority. And it's men that are the aggressors.

Anyways, I'll go back now to what Cercei was getting at:

Do you think it's okay to make jokes about Bill Cosby and rape? Do you think it's ok to make jokes about rape in general?

Edited by CaptainDantes, 21 November 2014 - 02:48 PM.


#2 DonValentino

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 02:48 PM

If you're going to make jokes about rape, or any sensitive subject, you have to make sure that you're not endorsing it or advocating it. I'm all for my freedom of humor rights, but some people make jokes that are just way out of line, insensitive and ignorant. If you're joking about it, be knowledgeable, know where the line is, and make sure you're doing what you can to solve the problem using humor. A lot of people respond positively to jokes and lifting the mood on a depressing topic, and use it as a coping mechanism, but if the joke is just mean then there is no place for that.



#3 CaptainDantes

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 02:54 PM

If you're going to make jokes about rape, or any sensitive subject, you have to make sure that you're not endorsing it or advocating it. I'm all for my freedom of humor rights, but some people make jokes that are just way out of line, insensitive and ignorant. If you're joking about it, be knowledgeable, know where the line is, and make sure you're doing what you can to solve the problem using humor. A lot of people respond positively to jokes and lifting the mood on a depressing topic, and use it as a coping mechanism, but if the joke is just mean then there is no place for that.

I agree to a point. I always hear people saying "Careful, don't go to the rape lot" (talking about a dimly lit parking lot), or "that test raped me," or things like that. Those wouldn't be considered endorsing or advocating, but they also aren't doing anything about the problem. Plus the fact that they're usually said in public and in the US 1 in 5 women could have their experience with assault degraded because people joke so lightly about it. Just being so close to the issue myself I can't ever laugh at those jokes. It's just tasteless to me.

I will note though, that I did make rape jokes before. But once I understood the magnitude of the problem, it just doesn't feel right anymore. But that's just my take.

Edited by CaptainDantes, 21 November 2014 - 02:54 PM.


#4 Wynd

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 05:25 PM

The words "rape" today have been brought to the saddest side because of the fact that this generation has claimed rape against someone falsely so many times that not only has our community loosened up on the word "rape" but now hasn't a clue that rape actually happens. What I mean by this is that women (and maybe men) accuse their former girlfriend/boyfriend of raping them because they had a fight or something really dumb like that. There's been a situation at my school just last year where a girl who was dating one of my friends accused the boy to have raped her after they broke up and claimed that she was now in fact pregnant because of the rape. They had broken up because she apparently cheated on him. It was later determined that he didn't rape her, and she gave birth to the child of the guy that she cheated on the guy with. These situations are becoming more and more popular, and because of this, our generation has put the word "rape" into a non-serious category.

 

To the point I was talking about earlier in the status update, I don't think that we need to be taught about rape in school. When you're growing up, you're naturally exposed to the fact that rape is a bad thing. Especially now-a-days. I don't think that it needs to be brought up in school. We don't go to school learning about how killing someone is bad, do we? It's just something we know. 

 

Also, I want to go to the Bill Cosby side of this thread and point out that, in my opinion, I personally don't think he's raped anybody. Of course, it's very much a possibility and I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I personally don't think that he raped anybody. Seeing the kinds of rape accusations that are pulled out all the time against celebrities, it makes me think it's just another one of those "I wanna accuse blank because they're famous!" Though, it's very suspicious that a former model has come out and admitted she was raped by him. These kinds of things become really hard to figure out and determine whether or not they were actually raped because these cases are being brought to light 30 years after the apparent rape.


Edited by Wundy, 21 November 2014 - 05:34 PM.


#5 redlion

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 06:28 PM

A lot of people respond positively to jokes and lifting the mood on a depressing topic, and use it as a coping mechanism, but if the joke is just mean then there is no place for that.

Kurt Vonnegut agrees with you.

And that's enough for me.

#6 CaptainDantes

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 06:58 PM

@Wundy - Just because charges are eventually dropped against famous people doesn't mean it didn't happen. In most cases I believe it did happen. The biggest problem is the amount of protection famous people get. Take Jameis Winston - when the woman was trying to tell police what had happened, they told her to "think very carefully" about it and that since it was a football town that she would get a lot of backlash. That's not the way police are supposed to act.

Rape in general is very difficult to prove. It is impossible to say someone is lying and I think instead of immediately assuming they are - every accusation should be investigated.

Part of the reason women don't come forward is because of the slut shaming, the difficulty with police, the fact that they have to relive it over and over as they tell the story over and over, and also the fact that they rarely get privacy about this.

You're right, we don't have to learn that rape is bad. But what should be taught in school are the grey areas. I don't mean to be graphic, but just because you're making out with someone doesn't mean it's ok to put your hands up her skirt. And when she pushes your hand away, you shouldn't be trying over and over again. It is a different kind of sexual assault than we're all used to hearing about, but it is assault all the same. Schools should also teach about the affect on someone's life rape can have and try to at least educate people on how to help their friends through a crisis like that.

California just recently came out with a sexual consent law where you need to have consent for any escalating action.
http://edition.cnn.c...-school-policy/

But going back to Cosby - I have no doubt he did this. It's not just about one person coming forward, there are dozens. It is well known that you need one person to break the ice before others will come forward, and I think that is exactly what has happened here.

#7 Frizzle

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 08:46 PM

"Either everything is funny, or nothing is."

#8 ortin

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 09:08 PM

"Either everything is funny, or nothing is."

Not true. Humor is extremely subjective, but there is a general consensus on what is acceptable for jokes on sensitive topics like this, though not without a good deal of grey area.

#9 Frizzle

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 09:38 PM

You're right, it is subjective, but that doesn't allow people to censor others because of what they find "offensive". Location, timing and context are key though.

#10 CaptainDantes

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 04:41 AM

You're right, it is subjective, but that doesn't allow people to censor others because of what they find "offensive". Location, timing and context are key though.


Of course. And I never tell anyone what to do. However, I may mention that I don't like those jokes.

Idk. Even though I'm still in my 20s, maybe I'm just becoming an old man early.

#11 Frizzle

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 05:53 AM

I don't like boybands but we make do.

#12 Bone

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 05:54 AM

The words "rape" today have been brought to the saddest side because of the fact that this generation has claimed rape against someone falsely so many times that not only has our community loosened up on the word "rape" but now hasn't a clue that rape actually happens. What I mean by this is that women (and maybe men) accuse their former girlfriend/boyfriend of raping them because they had a fight or something really dumb like that. There's been a situation at my school just last year where a girl who was dating one of my friends accused the boy to have raped her after they broke up and claimed that she was now in fact pregnant because of the rape. They had broken up because she apparently cheated on him. It was later determined that he didn't rape her, and she gave birth to the child of the guy that she cheated on the guy with. These situations are becoming more and more popular, and because of this, our generation has put the word "rape" into a non-serious category.

 

To the point I was talking about earlier in the status update, I don't think that we need to be taught about rape in school. When you're growing up, you're naturally exposed to the fact that rape is a bad thing. Especially now-a-days. I don't think that it needs to be brought up in school. We don't go to school learning about how killing someone is bad, do we? It's just something we know. 

 

Also, I want to go to the Bill Cosby side of this thread and point out that, in my opinion, I personally don't think he's raped anybody. Of course, it's very much a possibility and I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I personally don't think that he raped anybody. Seeing the kinds of rape accusations that are pulled out all the time against celebrities, it makes me think it's just another one of those "I wanna accuse blank because they're famous!" Though, it's very suspicious that a former model has come out and admitted she was raped by him. These kinds of things become really hard to figure out and determine whether or not they were actually raped because these cases are being brought to light 30 years after the apparent rape.

 

The percentage of rape claims that are "false" is in the low single digits. And I think you're underestimating how deeply embedded a tolerance for rape is embedded in American culture:

 

A survey of 11-to-14 year-olds found:

· 51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, "spent a lot of money" on the girl;

· 31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience;

· 87% of boys and 79% of girls said sexual assault was acceptable if the man and the woman were married;

· 65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.



#13 CaptainDantes

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 06:41 AM

The percentage of rape claims that are "false" is in the low single digits. And I think you're underestimating how deeply embedded a tolerance for rape is embedded in American culture:

A survey of 11-to-14 year-olds found:
· 51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, "spent a lot of money" on the girl;
· 31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience;
· 87% of boys and 79% of girls said sexual assault was acceptable if the man and the woman were married;
· 65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.

That's right! I forgot about that survey. Just disgusting. And proves more needs to be done to educate in schools.

Here's something that was just published yesterday.

Warning: graphic description and may be triggering

http://jezebel.com/w...scho-1659721302

"The girls he allegedly raped have all voluntarily left the school they attended together, Norman High School. Their families say they were hounded out of Norman High by merciless taunting from their classmates about the rapes, and, in one case, a physical assault."

There's a lot more in there, but I'll let you read it. It really shows everything that's wrong with rape culture in the US.

Edited by CaptainDantes, 22 November 2014 - 06:45 AM.


#14 Frizzle

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 07:03 AM

The percentage of rape claims that are "false" is in the low single digits. And I think you're underestimating how deeply embedded a tolerance for rape is embedded in American culture:

A survey of 11-to-14 year-olds found:
· 51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, "spent a lot of money" on the girl;
· 31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience;
· 87% of boys and 79% of girls said sexual assault was acceptable if the man and the woman were married;
· 65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.


Apparently 3000 boys are an accurate representation of 350 million people.

#15 CaptainDantes

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 07:35 AM

Apparently 3000 boys are an accurate representation of 350 million people.


No. But you have to start somewhere. No scientific paper or survey can ever sample every individual in a population. The idea is to get an accurate representation of the population with a smaller sample size. And people who deny the prevalence of this issue (not saying you are) are only adding to the problem.

#16 Frizzle

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 09:23 AM

I'm just highlighting the flaws in making a theoretical hypothesis based one flawed survey. 



#17 Dan

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 11:46 AM

No scientific paper or survey can ever sample every individual in a population. The idea is to get an accurate representation of the population with a smaller sample size. And people who deny the prevalence of this issue (not saying you are) are only adding to the problem.

 
As long as you realise that there is currently a huge media rush to publish anything that might paint women in this fashion. Fact-checking is always necessary in these scenarios and unfortunately a lot of the people who do critically analyse these studies are often times pushed away as "denying the prevalence of the issue" -- myself (often) included.
 
A great example is 9 Facts About Violence Against Women. The first "fact" they explain is:

"Most women experience physical abuse in their lifetime"

All you need to do is give the source's Key Findings section a quick read to understand how presenting data in this fashion can be harmful:
 

Physical assault is widespread among adults in the United States:

51.9 percent of surveyed women and 66.4 percent of surveyed men said they were physically assaulted as a child by an adult caretaker and/or as an adult by any type of attacker.

An estimated 1.9 million women and 3.2 million men are physically assaulted annually in the United States.

 
So, whilst Vox is accurate to the source, they are particularly picky with which side of the facts they choose to convey to readers. 
 
Some people might suggest that these figures, when disclosed together and discussing both males and females indicates a much larger issue of physical abuse in general. Vox, on the other hand, reads the findings and looks for a way to spin it into something that they know people care deeply about -- in order to get pageviews and ad impressions.
 
This type of careless journalism only makes the problem worse, and unfortunately it seems more and more of these click-bait attention-grabbing "facts" are getting regurgitated time after time by "activists", until most begin to question how it materialized in the first place.
 
Also consider that many of those involved here have their own agendas - take the "potty mouthed princesses" video - put together by a viral t-shirt company who also jumped onto the Ferguson incident with a "Dear White People" video to make a quick buck.

Do these media creators really care about the underlying issues here? That's something you have to find out on your own.
  

The percentage of rape claims that are "false" is in the low single digits. And I think you're underestimating how deeply embedded a tolerance for rape is embedded in American culture:
 
A survey of 11-to-14 year-olds found:
· 51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, "spent a lot of money" on the girl;
· 31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience;
· 87% of boys and 79% of girls said sexual assault was acceptable if the man and the woman were married;
· 65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.

 
I was interested in looking directly at the source and instead came across a tumblr post from SAFER (Students Active For Ending Rape) where they posted the same excerpt. Only they later added the following:
 

UDPATE from SAFER: Thanks for all of the thoughts and comments on this post. To answer some of your questions, the study itself is dated back to 1991. (White, Jacqueline W. and John A. Humphrey. “Young People’s Attitudes Toward Acquaintance Rape.” Acquaintance Rape: The Hidden crime.” John Wiley and Sons, 1991.) While it is likely that attitudes are not completely dissimilar to those of 1991, it is worth noting that this research is dated and to be taken with a grain of salt. If you have any other particular questions, please feel free to email us at [email protected] Thanks!

 
I think if a group dedicated to ending rape won't even take this almost-24 year-old source as an accurate representation of current attitudes, neither should we...
 
---

It's really telling how many gender activists will pull up damning studies long ago whilst completely ignoring anything more recent.

Here - let's consider the crime statistics from 1992-2011, provided by the FBI:

Spoiler


Gender activists wouldn't have you believe it, but instances of rape, just like almost all other crime, have been in steady decline over the last 20 years
 
... and we've managed to do it all without teaching boys to "not rape"...
 
--
 
But to answer the question in the OP regarding jokes about rape, Bill Cosby, and other distasteful subjects, the following quote springs to mind:
 

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.



#18 Swar

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 12:16 PM

.


I love when you do this.

#19 CaptainDantes

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 12:21 PM

@Dan +rep. You make a lot of good points. Any study should be dissected to make sure that what's reported is actually what was found in the study. And I'll be the first one to say that yes, a study from 24 years ago may not have any relevance to today.

And while yes the FBI statistics do paint a much different picture, this is what they regard as forcible rape:

"Forcible rape, as defined in the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, is the carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will. Attempts or assaults to commit rape by force or threat of force are also included; however, statutory rape (without force) and other sex offenses are excluded."

Plus the fact that most rape goes un-reported (Yes. I know this claim could be disputed as well) would probably inflate those statistics a bit. Also, "Carnal Knowledge" is a vague term. We don't know if that only means vaginal sex or if it means more. I tried looking it up, but every source seemed to describe it a little differently. But all of these may not get the stats anywhere near the 1 in 5 mark that I threw out there earlier in the forum - so my bad on that.

So instead, I'm going to turn attention to the issue of slut shaming and the reasons I stated earlier of why rape goes unreported.

Now, as for the "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Sure, of course you have the right to say it. You have the right to be an asshole too if you're not physically hurting anyone. And I agree, freedom of speech is the most important freedom we have in the US. Will never dispute that and it's the reason why, like I said earlier, will not censor anyone. I may tell them how I feel, but they have the right to do or say as they want.

What I'm saying is not that it should be illegal to make rape jokes, I'm saying that they are in bad taste. And for something like this, that turns someone's whole world upside down - people need to be a little more sensitive of others around them.

And yes, you can argue that murder is another terrible crime and people use that word very loosely in every day life and humor. But I believe it is different because there isn't a social norm that the victim feels responsible or ashamed. And to me that is a huge difference.

Edited by CaptainDantes, 22 November 2014 - 02:52 PM.


#20 jinq

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 08:08 PM

How are they gonna convict someone for raping 10, 20 or 30 years ago if there is no physical evidence?


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