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#1 CaptainDantes

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 09:29 AM

http://edition.cnn.c....html?hpt=hp_t2

So this is the big news this week.

I won't post the story here because it is a little graphic in its language.

My initial reaction was that America has lost the moral high ground. Though it may look like that to the rest of the world - I don't completely agree. What other country would make something like this so public? Democracy is only as strong as the people it governs - and this shows me 1) exactly why presidents are only allowed 2 terms, 2) that eventually the illegal things the government does will be corrected (you don't have to be a traitor like Snowden - but that's another debate), and 3) that the people of America still have the right moral values having seen the outrage that has poured out from the US alone.

What are everyone's thoughts?

Edited by CaptainDantes, 11 December 2014 - 10:02 AM.


#2 DonValentino

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 10:07 AM

I think this is even more disturbing than the report: http://www.npr.org/b...is-full-of-crap

 

Also I'd be interested to hear why you think Snowden is a traitor



#3 CaptainDantes

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 10:11 AM

I think this is even more disturbing than the report: http://www.npr.org/b...is-full-of-crap

Also I'd be interested to hear why you think Snowden is a traitor

Lol. Dick Cheney. Everyone knows the man is nuts. I guess it's not disturbing because it's what I expect from him now. And I shouldn't have even mentioned Snowden because that is much more polarizing :p

Edit: However, I firmly believe Snowden didn't do enough in house to get this information into the right hands before skipping town. But lets not debate about Snowden on this topic :p

Edited by CaptainDantes, 11 December 2014 - 10:20 AM.


#4 Bone

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 12:12 PM

 

http://edition.cnn.c....html?hpt=hp_t2

So this is the big news this week.

I won't post the story here because it is a little graphic in its language.

My initial reaction was that America has lost the moral high ground. Though it may look like that to the rest of the world - I don't completely agree. What other country would make something like this so public? Democracy is only as strong as the people it governs - and this shows me 1) exactly why presidents are only allowed 2 terms, 2) that eventually the illegal things the government does will be corrected (you don't have to be a traitor like Snowden - but that's another debate), and 3) that the people of America still have the right moral values having seen the outrage that has poured out from the US alone.

What are everyone's thoughts?

 

I think you're assessing the situation a bit optimistically. The extent of the torture program is only coming to light years after it happened, and it's highly unlikely that anyone will be prosecuted. And as much outrage as there is, there are still plenty of people (an entire political party) defending torture. :/



#5 CaptainDantes

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 12:16 PM

I think you're assessing the situation a bit optimistically. The extent of the torture program is only coming to light years after it happened, and it's highly unlikely that anyone will be prosecuted. And as much outrage as there is, there are still plenty of people (an entire political party) defending torture. :/


I guess I always try to be optimistic - but you're correct as well. I'm not as concerned with making sure people are prosecuted as I am about making sure this has stopped. Which it has - for now.

#6 DonValentino

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 12:20 PM

Lol. Dick Cheney. Everyone knows the man is nuts. I guess it's not disturbing because it's what I expect from him now. And I shouldn't have even mentioned Snowden because that is much more polarizing :p

Edit: However, I firmly believe Snowden didn't do enough in house to get this information into the right hands before skipping town. But lets not debate about Snowden on this topic :p

Do you understand why what you said there is awful? This guy is basically admitting to war crimes and we're like "haha dick that guy is crazy, what else is new." He is one of THE WORST human beings on the planet and should be tried at The Hague but nothing will ever be done.

 

I guess I always try to be optimistic - but you're correct as well. I'm not as concerned with making sure people are prosecuted as I am about making sure this has stopped. Which it has - for now.

 

If people aren't prosecuted it won't stop. If nothing happens to the perpetrators, what do they care? These practices will just continue.

 

We might as well debate about him here instead of making a new thread. I wonder who the right hands are? It's obvious the government thinks of him as a traitor, and we're not in favor of this information coming out, so what do you think they would have done if he went to them? Silenced him is my guess, I think I'm safe in assuming you would have never heard what he had to say, at least not while it mattered. The great thing about him leaving and spilling the beans was that they didn't have any time to do "damage control". I don't know, to me he's a patriot not a traitor. The American people should know what's being done to them in their own country.



#7 Bone

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 12:21 PM

I guess I always try to be optimistic - but you're correct as well. I'm not as concerned with making sure people are prosecuted as I am about making sure this has stopped. Which it has - for now.

 

It's been stopped, but without prosecutions or another significant measure to prevent this from happening again, there's a precedent that it can happen unpunished. Which is morally abhorrent and detrimental to the US's reputation.



#8 CaptainDantes

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 12:37 PM

@DonValentino

I agree Cheney is one of the worst humans. I laugh because he is not the Vice President anymore and has no say in the current administration. I'm not saying people shouldn't be prosecuted, I'm saying it's more important to me to make sure things like this don't happen again.

This information did take years to come out, but like I said before - what other country would air this kind of stuff and admit their mistake publicly?

Whatever way this torture news was leaked was the right way. The senate debated for a long time with the CIA about what things could be published and what things needed to stay classified. To me, if Snowden was a true patriot, he would have explored every option before skipping town. But instead in the interest of "preserving freedom" he left for a country that does it's best to keep their people from general freedoms (China).

I don't really care what he says - no self respecting country would let that guy go without learning all of the information he had. So that means both they and Russia learned everything about those programs. That damages the security of America and makes Snowden a traitor.

That said - I didn't really think the Prism program was that bad to begin with. I thought it was very overblown in the media. Every time something new came out it had a controvercial header, but when I actually read the article it seemed pretty acceptable to me. American information may have gotten caught in the massive web, but when it was identified as American it was deleted. I don't believe in the conspiracy theories about the NSA collecting information about every single american. I mean, even if they were there is way too much information to actually make sense of all of it.

Edit: If the things Snowden released were not as detailed and he showed restraint in what he chose to give to the media so that it got the point across but wasn't as damaging, then I wouldn't feel quite as I do now.

My personal thoughts on it anyway.

It's been stopped, but without prosecutions or another significant measure to prevent this from happening again, there's a precedent that it can happen unpunished. Which is morally abhorrent and detrimental to the US's reputation.

You're right. And I hope at some point they ARE prosecuted.

Edited by CaptainDantes, 11 December 2014 - 01:06 PM.


#9 ortin

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 02:39 PM

Wait the U.S. had a moral high ground to begin with?

#10 DonValentino

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 02:50 PM

Wait the U.S. had a moral high ground to begin with?

 

Uh yeah we're the greatest country on Earth and we distribute freedom and democracy to poor oppressed people



#11 Frizzle

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 02:53 PM

Wait the U.S. had a moral high ground to begin with?


Name one country in the world that has done nothing to not hold a moral high ground?

#12 ortin

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 02:59 PM

Name one country in the world that has done nothing to not hold a moral high ground?

The country of Neocodexia



#13 Frizzle

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 03:26 PM

RDD says no.

#14 ortin

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 03:43 PM

RDD says no.

Explain?



#15 Frizzle

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 04:28 PM

I thought you were the expert on codex history?

#16 ortin

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 04:33 PM

I thought you were the expert on codex history?

It's hard to know what RDD thinks of Neocodex after all those years



#17 Frizzle

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 05:33 PM

It's kinda what he done when he was in charge of codex...

#18 ortin

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 05:55 PM

It's kinda what he done when he was in charge of codex...

But, why would he have the moral high ground?

 

Lol this exchange must be torturous for those who are looking for a discussion on torture.



#19 DonValentino

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 07:18 PM

PUN!!!



#20 jinq

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 07:27 PM

Gotta love Republicans (especially that Dick) defending the use of torture on suspects.




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