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Morality


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#26 ortin

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 11:42 PM

You are not an elephant.

I'm a cellophant tho ;)

#27 Adam

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 12:01 AM

My disdain for you comes out when I drink beer.



#28 Nymh

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 07:33 AM

Do elephants actually have consciousness though? Interesting...

 

What do you think consciousness means?



#29 Oktober

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 10:31 AM

I generally believe that morality, human rights, the value of human lives and yadda yadda are part of the so called social norms. We usually go along with them since that's what we are taught to.

Concepts as "don't kill" "don't steal" etc. 

 

Of course you could consider an action "good" if it objectively does more good than harm (utilitarian) - because defining what has an overall positive influence is much easier than defining the morally right choice.



#30 Shannon

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 03:13 PM

Do elephants actually have consciousness though? Interesting...

I really don't understand your comment. Elephants feel pain, form strong bonds with their herd, and have the second most complex brains in the mammalian world. They have consciousness. Just like you, me, and everyone else does.



#31 ortin

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 06:16 PM

I really don't understand your comment. Elephants feel pain, form strong bonds with their herd, and have the second most complex brains in the mammalian world. They have consciousness. Just like you, me, and everyone else does.

Can they exercise free will? Are they self aware?

#32 SheOfTheEnderworld

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 06:17 PM

Can they exercise free will? Are they self aware?

 

Can you prove that they don't and aren't?



#33 ortin

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 06:20 PM

What do you think consciousness means?

It involves the above two concepts.

Can you prove that they don't and aren't?

I don't know. I'm honestly asking these questions.

#34 Shannon

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 06:41 PM

Can they exercise free will? Are they self aware?

In case you're serious, here's an article discussing this. The title is literally "Elephant Self-Awareness Mirrors Humans".



#35 Adam

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 06:48 PM

It involves the above two concepts.
I don't know. I'm honestly asking these questions.

From my observations, elephants have proven to be zombies without a conscious. 

 

Brainnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnsssss

 

elephant-zombie.jpg



#36 pancakeface

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Posted 23 February 2015 - 02:52 AM

You are not an elephant.

 

We don't know that. At least, I don't. On the internet, nobody knows what you could be.

 

That said, I'm a pragmatist but I wouldn't say I'm utilitarian.


Edited by argonate, 15 May 2015 - 08:19 PM.


#37 Nymh

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Posted 23 February 2015 - 05:41 PM

Can they exercise free will? Are they self aware?

 

There is no solid scientific concept of free will.  And elephants can recognize themselves in a mirror, so they fulfill a simple self-awareness test.

 

Why does having consciousness matter when assigning "value" to life?



#38 Oktober

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 03:17 AM

There is no solid scientific concept of free will.  And elephants can recognize themselves in a mirror, so they fulfill a simple self-awareness test.

 

Why does having consciousness matter when assigning "value" to life?

 

Because there is life and life. You probably don't mourn the bacteria you kill brushing your teeth, right?

 

The idea of killing or using animal that may be aware of what they are going through is horrifying to some of us. A lot of people would stop eating pork if it'd be proved that pigs are as self-aware as a 5 years old kid, for example. 



#39 Nymh

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 03:54 AM

Because there is life and life. You probably don't mourn the bacteria you kill brushing your teeth, right?
 
The idea of killing or using animal that may be aware of what they are going through is horrifying to some of us. A lot of people would stop eating pork if it'd be proved that pigs are as self-aware as a 5 years old kid, for example.


So we should base the value of a life on how bad it makes humans feel when it dies?

#40 Oktober

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 06:11 AM

So we should base the value of a life on how bad it makes humans feel when it dies?

 

My point was more about how bad they feel when they die.



#41 Nymh

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 08:12 PM

My point was more about how bad they feel when they die.

 

You mentioned how people feel about the pain of other living beings three times in your statements that I quoted.



#42 DonValentino

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 08:30 PM

You mentioned how people feel about the pain of other living beings three times in your statements that I quoted.

 

Ah well you know what they meant, if a pig knew it was being killed and felt that pain the same way a 5 year old would, you would be more empathetic towards it.



#43 Nymh

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 04:30 AM

Ah well you know what they meant, if a pig knew it was being killed and felt that pain the same way a 5 year old would, you would be more empathetic towards it.


I would? Or you in general?

Why does that have any bearing on the value of their life? And how do we know that the pig doesn't?

#44 Oktober

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 05:19 AM

Ah well you know what they meant, if a pig knew it was being killed and felt that pain the same way a 5 year old would, you would be more empathetic towards it.

 

You wouldn't?

 

I would? Or you in general?

Why does that have any bearing on the value of their life? And how do we know that the pig doesn't?

 

The problem is that we don't know if the pig does or does not feel in such a way because we are not pigs, therefore we can only imagine how it would feel. WE would feel horrible about it because we would know what it's going through, thus putting ourselves in their shoes. I don't know if I explained it clearly.

 

And I repeat what I said, life is not equal life. Please tell me how you'd value the lives of others, because, volens nolens, we are forced to kill in order to survive. 



#45 Josh

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 07:06 PM

Of course you could consider an action "good" if it objectively does more good than harm (utilitarian) - because defining what has an overall positive influence is much easier than defining the morally right choice.

 

Yes, I can consider something good FOR ME if it does more then what I perceive as good than bad, but that's all I can speak for. 



#46 Nymh

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 07:35 PM

You wouldn't?
 
The problem is that we don't know if the pig does or does not feel in such a way because we are not pigs, therefore we can only imagine how it would feel. WE would feel horrible about it because we would know what it's going through, thus putting ourselves in their shoes. I don't know if I explained it clearly.
 
And I repeat what I said, life is not equal life. Please tell me how you'd value the lives of others, because, volens nolens, we are forced to kill in order to survive.


Putting ourselves in the shoes of other living things has no bearing on the value of their life.

You ask how I value life? There is no intrinsic "value" to the life of any thing. I don't believe that because I am capable of experiencing sympathy or doing complex calculations in my head that my life is more valuable than anyone or any thing else's. It's entitely a subjective exercise to try to quantify the value of any life, and is therefore useless.

#47 pancakemachine

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Posted 15 May 2015 - 09:04 AM

I disagree with the model because if you really look into it morals are just what someone believes is right and wrong, it goes hand and hand with religion(another argument). In different time periods morals were very different. Some places would cut off your arm if you were found stealing and everyone found that acceptable, while in today's society it would be found immoral. not everyone has the same morals either so I really disagree with this model.



#48 Drakonid

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Posted 15 May 2015 - 12:43 PM

ITT: MY MORALITY IS MORE MORAL THAN YOURS



#49 pancakemachine

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Posted 15 May 2015 - 12:45 PM

ITT: MY MORALITY IS MORE MORAL THAN YOURS

Honestly thats what the world has come to



#50 Kaddict

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Posted 15 May 2015 - 04:06 PM

Sorta relevant to the animal discussion above: animals (including non-human primates) don't feel pain the same way humans do. The feel a pain stimulus, but they have been shown not to "hurt" the same way we do. They avoid a painful stimulus to avoid harm to their body, but it is still different.

 

Taken from Craig, A.D. PM:19455175    (From one of my neurology lectures)




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