32 replies to this topic

[Kaddict]

Again, I am disappointed with the lack of actual debates here, so hopefully this one will cause some discussion.

If we don't define male and female and biologic and genetic make-up, does this fluid gender identification just further entrench stereotypical gender roles?

[Bone]

Gender identity =/= gender roles

Gender roles are the basis of sexism, gender identity is a personal experience and means of self-expression

[Goblinoid]

Gender roles are determined by a society at large, and are entrenched as long as the society insists on thinking that way. 

 

I think your premise is based on the assumption that gender identification must fall into either of society's binary categories (i.e. you're either a man/woman), which is false. For example, there are people who identify as agendered (genderless, non-gendered; however you prefer) and people who identify as various aspects of both. Gender identity is often about realizing that there's a spectrum involved, and that it's not as cut-and-dried as the media portrays it. 

 

In short: the answer to the question is no. If anything, it's a way of challenging said gender roles. 

[Cyo]

I associate your gender based on your biological sex. Dress up, have a sex-change, whatever, you're still the sex you're born with and I feel that's okay.

 

So the fucking what if you internally feel like something else, go live out your dreams of being that - as long as you're not hurting anybody else.

 

But you're still your original biological sex.

 

Sorry for any of the otterkin we have here on the forum, if you feel offended or triggered then P.M. me and air your grievances, I'll ignore it in my inbox.

[talbs]

I associate your gender based on your biological sex. Dress up, have a sex-change, whatever, you're still the sex you're born with and I feel that's okay.

 

So the fucking what if you internally feel like something else, go live out your dreams of being that - as long as you're not hurting anybody else.

 

But you're still your original biological sex.

 

Sorry for any of the otterkin we have here on the forum, if you feel offended or triggered then P.M. me and air your grievances, I'll ignore it in my inbox.

 

If this wasn't my first visit to this thread, I would have assumed I typed this myself.

[Savasana]

I associate your gender based on your biological sex. Dress up, have a sex-change, whatever, you're still the sex you're born with and I feel that's okay.

 

So the fucking what if you internally feel like something else, go live out your dreams of being that - as long as you're not hurting anybody else.

 

But you're still your original biological sex.

 

Sorry for any of the otterkin we have here on the forum, if you feel offended or triggered then P.M. me and air your grievances, I'll ignore it in my inbox.

 

I think your post lies on the assumption that sex and gender are the same thing.They are not, 

 

Gender: the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).

Sex: either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and many other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

 

Gender is a fluid concept intimately tied to the social and cultural community, sex is a biological term coined with science. A person's sex may never change, but their gender certainly can. 

[Kaddict]

Similar lines: Do you agree with bathrooms use being determined by biological traits or by how you feel internally?

[Savasana]

Similar lines: Do you agree with bathrooms use being determined by biological traits or by how you feel internally?

 

Honestly, I don't see bathrooms as the issue other people do. I mean, I think some cultures and religions have serious problems with it, but if I have to pee and the ladies' is full or locked, I am going into the men's. If I saw a man, or someone who felt they should be a woman, in the ladies' I would likely pause and go a little faster. 

 

I once saw a woman take her like 11-year-old kid into the ladies' with her, and the biggest thought in my head was how strange the mother must be to still accompany her 11-year-old kid to the bathroom - and make him use the ladies'. 

 

I guess I just don't have a strong enough opinion on it to have a decently formed opinion, 

[Kaddict]

Ambiguous genitalia actually isn't usually due to chromosomal anomalies, thus you could easily karyotype the sex. Hermaphrodites usually are genetic problems, but only one set of organs will be active, if I am not mistaken.

[Kaddict]

XXY is klienfeldters (I am 90% sure that is incorrectly spelled) where the person is a guy, but has small testes/schlong (is that the scientific word?), big bro boobs (gynecomastia) etc. But I haven't heard of cases where they have both male/female genitalia (but I haven't heard of everything in the world, so don't take my word for it)

[Padme]

Let people be who ever the fuck they want to be.

 

None of this matters. All of this shit mattered when the world needed more population. Guess what? We're over populated. We don't need more people who can easily procreate, the increase of couples who can't traditionally bear children is actually a blessing. On that note, there are many means for these people to rear children.

 

Gender roles were pivotal in creating a society that would further the human race. We can explore other alternatives now.

 

If you want to be so ignorant to think that someone is actually only the sex they are born, you're a fool.

 

#YESALLPEOPLE

 

Public bathrooms are a joke. A few establishments I've been in, have and maintain individual bathrooms which don't segregate people based on their HIDDEN private parts behind DOORS. Mind blowing. 

[Cyo]

I think your post lies on the assumption that sex and gender are the same thing.They are not, 

 

Gender: the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).

Sex: either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and many other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

 

Gender is a fluid concept intimately tied to the social and cultural community, sex is a biological term coined with science. A person's sex may never change, but their gender certainly can. 

 

See, I don't really understand that part. To me personally, if you're born with a sausage and beans (what I actually mean by this is the stuff on the chromosomal level) and then some day start taking hormones to look like more a chick and start to act like a chick - that's just a man who's pretending to be a woman. Good for him if he can be what he wants as much as he can but that doesn't change the fact that he's a man (albeit a traditionally 'unmanly' one, but who gives a shit).

[Kaddict]

What if your chromosomes are XXY, or what if an X chromosome inherited Y chromosome genes due to faulty crossover in meiosis? Genetically the line is muddy, let along gender identity.

Again, I am pretty sure XXY is just a dude with bitchtits, like Robert Paulson.

I have tried to put myself in the shoes of someone who had ambiguous genitalia (for instance) and was brought up as a female, only to find out I was actually a male (46XY). I have 0 idea how I would respond to that situation. 

 

EDIT: I know that Robert Paulson was on a hormone replacement regimen, just in case people were gonna ream me for preaching wrong fight club stuff. Also, XXY has other issues, usually mental slowishness, small junk etc. What a fun sucking edit this was...

Edited by Kaddict, 21 May 2015 - 10:39 PM.

[Cyo]

What if your chromosomes are XXY, or what if an X chromosome inherited Y chromosome genes due to faulty crossover in meiosis? Genetically the line is muddy, let along gender identity.

 

In such cases I'd go with whatever sexual organs (even if they're not fertile) they expressed at birth.

[Savasana]

Again, I am pretty sure XXY is just a dude with bitchtits, like Robert Paulson.

I have tried to put myself in the shoes of someone who had ambiguous genitalia (for instance) and was brought up as a female, only to find out I was actually a male (46XY). I have 0 idea how I would respond to that situation.

EDIT: I know that Robert Paulson was on a hormone replacement regimen, just in case people were gonna ream me for preaching wrong fight club stuff. Also, XXY has other issues, usually mental slowishness, small junk etc. What a fun sucking edit this was...

His name was Robert Paulson.

[NapisaurusRex]

 

In such cases I'd go with whatever sexual organs (even if they're not fertile) they expressed at birth.

But how would you know?

[Cyo]

 
But how would you know?

What do you mean?

 

Like when I'm interacting with somebody who I think is of gender A while actually being gender B? If they're passable then whatever but the moment I find out or they tell me that they were born gender B or 'used' to be gender B, I'll start referring to them as gender B.

 

To clarify, I wouldn't change the way I were interacting with the person much after finding out their 'true' gender except for maybe when talking about some aspects that are truly on a fundamental level understandable only by the male gender, like when your balls stick to your inner thigh and you're giving a presentation at the same time or that fucking random piss once in a blue moon where the urine spews out like from a fucking sprinkler, just guy things that only guys would understand, you know?

[Savasana]

What do you mean?

 

Like when I'm interacting with somebody who I think is of gender A while actually being gender B? If they're passable then whatever but the moment I find out or they tell me that they were born gender B or 'used' to be gender B, I'll start referring to them as gender B.

 

 

But why? If it means literally nothing to you, but something to them, why not just call them what they feel they are?

[Cyo]

But why? If it means literally nothing to you, but something to them, why not just call them what they feel they are?

 

Because I lack the empathy to understand 'why' it means something to them.

 

For example, when I see somebody feeling anxious in social settings, I understand that feeling and cease to make that person stand out during a group conversation with other or whatever, because I understand what that person is going through and why it feels uncomfortable for them.

 

But when it comes to gender I just don't understand why it would matter to that person whether he or she is called by their 'new' gender because it doesn't change anything. Dude looks like a lady, lady looks like a dude, who gives a shit. As long as you feel dope then that's all that matters and nobody else should have the power to ruin you feeling comfortable in your own skin.

Maybe what I'm trying to say is that by you having to tell others to call you a certain gender then that means that you don't completely feel okay in being that role, you have some doubts about it.

 

Or you know, some shit like that.

[Savasana]

Because I lack the empathy to understand 'why' it means something to them.

 

For example, when I see somebody feeling anxious in social settings, I understand that feeling and cease to make that person stand out during a group conversation with other or whatever, because I understand what that person is going through and why it feels uncomfortable for them.

 

But when it comes to gender I just don't understand why it would matter to that person whether he or she is called by their 'new' gender because it doesn't change anything. Dude looks like a lady, lady looks like a dude, who gives a shit. As long as you feel dope then that's all that matters and nobody else should have the power to ruin you feeling comfortable in your own skin.

Maybe what I'm trying to say is that by you having to tell others to call you a certain gender then that means that you don't completely feel okay in being that role, you have some doubts about it.

 

Or you know, some shit like that.

 

Or it means they think people are unaware what to call others who identify differently. I also don't fully understand why understanding their woe is a necessary condition to calling them what they want. It should be sufficient to know that it matters to them, even if you know you will never understand it. 

 

When I was in undergrad, one or two classes started the class by "introducing and preferred pronouns." I will admit, I thought that was dumbest thing ever.Ever.

[Cyo]

Or it means they think people are unaware what to call others who identify differently. I also don't fully understand why understanding their woe is a necessary condition to calling them what they want. It should be sufficient to know that it matters to them, even if you know you will never understand it. 

 

When I was in undergrad, one or two classes started the class by "introducing and preferred pronouns." I will admit, I thought that was dumbest thing ever.Ever.

 

See, when I don't understand why something is important (this is more in the context of social aspects/behaviour/feelings and not like higher maths and what not) I dismiss it as not important enough to change my behaviour for it.

[redlion]

Again, I am disappointed with the lack of actual debates here, so hopefully this one will cause some discussion.

If we don't define male and female and biologic and genetic make-up, does this fluid gender identification just further entrench stereotypical gender roles?

You are going to need to state your premise more clearly.

It seems as though you arguing that by using terms like strait, gay, bi and trans, we, and I include the population at large as you have, are somehow feeding in to the negative stereotypes applied by minority voices. And that is starting to sound like victim shaming.

Try telling a black person that calling another black man 'negro' is the reason that the police shoot first and ask questions later.

I won't even get in to the origins of the word negro, and how it was reclaimed by black folk after it was used as a tool of oppression. Fag is making a comeback in much the same way for the LBGT community.

[Kaddict]

You are going to need to state your premise more clearly.

It seems as though you arguing that by using terms like strait, gay, bi and trans, we, and I include the population at large as you have, are somehow feeding in to the negative stereotypes applied by minority voices. And that is starting to sound like victim shaming.

Try telling a black person that calling another black man 'negro' is the reason that the police shoot first and ask questions later.

I won't even get in to the origins of the word negro, and how it was reclaimed by black folk after it was used as a tool of oppression. Fag is making a comeback in much the same way for the LBGT community.

Nah, that wasn't my premise. I am not talking sexual orientation, I am talking gender identity. I heard an LGBTQI pannel, and a this person was saying "I always fit in with the girls in my family more, I would like being in the kitchen rather than watching football." I was thinking, so watching football=being a man? Cooking=being a woman? When did we go back to the 1950s?

[cara]

I think the fact that we as a people have started to explore our gender identities beyond the social norms (that have been nothing but oppressive) is the beginning of gender roles being challenged. I don't think fluid gender identification really has any connection to stereotypical gender roles. If anything, it promotes a healthy choice to the effect of 'be whatever role you want to be despite your gender'. 

 

As far as what I would call someone who has decided not to be/identify with their biological gender? Whatever the hell they want. It seems to be a significant issue to the LGBT community (or whoever, for fucks sake I don't know) to be properly addressed and as such I would comply as to not offend anyone since it is such a simple request that obviously means a lot. To me personally though, they are just labels. Who cares? You are who you are on the inside, that's all that matters to me. I could literally not care less what sexuality or gender you identify with. If you're happy, then I'm happy. We're all people, we all deserve the same rights and respect despite what you enjoy being or who you enjoy being with. 

[Bone]

I think the fact that we as a people have started to explore our gender identities beyond the social norms (that have been nothing but oppressive) is the beginning of gender roles being challenged. I don't think fluid gender identification really has any connection to stereotypical gender roles. If anything, it promotes a healthy choice to the effect of 'be whatever role you want to be despite your gender'. 

 

As far as what I would call someone who has decided not to be/identify with their biological gender? Whatever the hell they want. It seems to be a significant issue to the LGBT community (or whoever, for fucks sake I don't know) to be properly addressed and as such I would comply as to not offend anyone since it is such a simple request that obviously means a lot. To me personally though, they are just labels. Who cares? You are who you are on the inside, that's all that matters to me. I could literally not care less what sexuality or gender you identify with. If you're happy, then I'm happy. We're all people, we all deserve the same rights and respect despite what you enjoy being or who you enjoy being with. 

 

But, but, it's weird.

See, when I don't understand why something is important (this is more in the context of social aspects/behaviour/feelings and not like higher maths and what not) I dismiss it as not important enough to change my behaviour for it.

 

While something may be unimportant to you, it might be extremely important to someone else. Even if you don't understand someone's pronoun preference (or why they care about it), is it really worth ignoring it and causing them distress? A smidgen of empathy never hurts, imo.