169 replies to this topic

[Waser Lave]

You suggested that 4 year colleges not be free. Bone said why it was a bad idea.

You now respond that you should also fund vocational training?

You appear to have misunderstood me entirely, what I've been saying all along is that if you're going to make university free then vocational training should also be subsidised in the same way... You shouldn't fund one without the other, I thought that was pretty clear.
 

Also, what about people who have societally important jobs which don't require a degree? Like mechanics, plumbers, nurses etc. Why should somebody be paid to spend 3-4 years at university doing something like English or Media Studies when those people are out working their way up and supporting themselves?

 

In the UK plumbers, electricians, mechanics etc can make a hell of a lot of money, comparable to many doctors. You could also make the argument that those kinds of trades are just as important as doctors too so why shouldn't they get subsidised while others get free college worth many thousands of dollars?

 

No, the alternative is to also fund vocational training if you're going to make college free. Given that it's usually not the wealthy who go into vocational trades surely that would achieve as much, if not more, than free college for social mobility.

 
 

[DregsandDregs]

You appear to have misunderstood me entirely, what I've been saying all along is that if you're going to make university free then vocational training should also be subsidised in the same way... You shouldn't fund one without the other, I thought that was pretty clear.
 

 

You didn't.  Because you brought up that they didn't need a degree, and your first quote really clouded it by way of inadvertent dog whistle.

 

English, Media studies>liberal arts>underwater basket weaving.  And supporting themselves>working for a living.

 

Also, in America those vocational things are often ALSO colleges, Vocational Colleges/Technical Colleges.  So there was a miscommunication there too.  So to Americans free colleges usually also means vocational work as well.

 

And you present a dichotomy in your second post, as if it's either or.  As if the vocational workers won't go to colleges as well.

Edited by DregsandDregs, 04 February 2016 - 02:15 PM.

[NapisaurusRex]

I quoted Forbes.  Forbes.  Do you know what Forbes is?
 
You quoted Newsmax.  I never heard of Newsmax until you brought them up, but you wanna know what?  I did some research.   Back in early 2010 the Nielsens found that they were the most Conservative site on the web

Raise the retirement age?  How about you stop abusing the honest, hard working, blue collar workers of America, huh?  Raising the retirement age will disproportionally hurt people in blue collar jobs.  Why?  Think about it.  Think about how your body is going to feel after working construction, or Plumbing or Trucking for decades versus someone who's been in a desk job for the same amount of time.
 
Instead, how about we do something about non-citizens* collecting and people who don't need it because of stock options and the like collecting.

ehhh... It depends on how they physically perform their jobs in any field. When you factor in the stress levels, hours worked, how time is spent outside the job, how they eat, and hold their bodies, it probably ends up being about the same. Raising the retirement age hurts everyone.

 

It's not really economics. Japan has an increasingly ageing population (most centurions in the world) and a society that doesn't produce many babies.

Japanese culture is ridiculous and they literally live to work. 90+ weeks, sleeping at your job, not being the first one to leave. It's silly.

I knew that part; I wasn't sure about the 'recent economic move' mentioned.
 

But how?  Why?
 
Because most people get disabled like in the mid fifties.  They have to get their SSI, and are entitled to it.  Off the top of my head I don't remember if it's the full amount or not.

Wouldn't the more cost effective solution be to make more people healthy and enable them so there are fewer people getting disabled so young?

[Coops]

You suggested that 4 year colleges not be free. Bone said why it was a bad idea.

You now respond that you should also fund vocational training?
 

 
Praise!

And you're not allowed to save up more than 2000 dollar at a time or something.  Because if you do you obviously don't need all the money they're giving you. Though I think Obama made special protected bank accounts and a few tax shelters for that so now you can.

 

For all people are trying to raise the minimum wage, they have to be reminded that SSI for people who are utterly incapable of working is less than minimum wage.

 

Is there a problem with people abusing Oxycotin and the like drugs?  Yes, especially down in Florida where they usually get them through pain management centers.  Just for the love of god stop attacking people who are in goddamn agony.

Okay, for just a second, I will entertain the thought of drug abuse being necessarily bad. Why though? Because what they want? Because they can? Honestly, drugs need to be entirely legalized/decriminalized. If someone wants to snort medical grade heroin, fine, that's not my issue. Throw them in jail the moment they run someone over, or cause undue harm on some other person (including property damage), until then, zero fucks given. The issue with any level of regulation is people like me, who have legitimate need, end up paying the price of said regulation. I don't have cancer. Therefore, I do not need pain management (bullshit, btw). I'll obviously become addicted as soon as I start taking pain drugs (again bullshit, I've never abused any form of pain management I've undergone and the percentage of chronic pain patients abusing pain management is less than 5%).

In addition, alphabet soup government organizations practice the corrupt and unconstitutional act of civil asset forfeiture -- which is a clear, blatant and disgusting abuse of power, with some serious fucking conflict of interests for any policing organization, including government regulatory bodies. If you don't know what civil asset forfeiture/seizure is, look it up and prepare to be thoroughly disgusted while feeling hopeless and despaired. 

Anyways, I think you clearly misunderstood Waser Lave. He stated pretty obviously that if we fund universities, we should fund vocational training. It shouldn't be either or. It should be both. He also lives in England. So, they may do vocational training a bit differently than the US. His message was still pretty clear to me (and to others here, it would seem).

[Bone]

No, the alternative is to also fund vocational training if you're going to make college free. Given that it's usually not the wealthy who go into vocational trades surely that would achieve as much, if not more, than free college for social mobility.

 

I thought you were implying that college shouldn't be free because vocational trades aren't. If that's not the case, what point were you trying to make in quoting this?:

 

Not having free college is stupid. I have no clue why are we arguing.

College should be free, health too; there's no sense in argue about that.

[Waser Lave]

I thought you were implying that college shouldn't be free because vocational trades aren't. If that's not the case, what point were you trying to make in quoting this?:

He only said that college (university) should be free, nothing about vocational training.

[DonValentino]

I think I'll read this thread this weekend looks like some actual good discussion

[Frizzle]

Da fuq? I hope you aren't in America. I think you either should earn or pay for college. Nothing should be given. Socialism is slowly taking over America though I fear.

Because capitalism and plutocracy works so well...

[HiMyNameIsNick]

Da fuq? I hope you aren't in America. I think you either should earn or pay for college. Nothing should be given. Socialism is slowly taking over America though I fear.

 

 

 

ayyy lmao

Yeah, socialism. You got me, I'm a commie

 

I'm glad that you think like just the 10% of your country

Edited by HiMyNameIsNick, 09 February 2016 - 02:40 PM.

[Coops]

Get with it or get out. I hate the society now wanting free college and healthcare yet don't want to put anything towards it themselves. How are we to support it?

If you want free college I say you should be obligated to work for 3 years on a fair wage using that degree as a gov employee. If you choose to do culinary and then after get degree and say well I don't want to be a cook, then you should owe the entire cost of the college back. I'd be ok with it, so people don't waste their college on bs degrees and never use it.

Force them to use or not get it at all. You benefitted from the gov, let the gov get some use out of you and also you earn experience.

You do realize the US has been a democratic socialist nation.. like always?

You know those police that protect you? Socialism. Hospitals you visit? Socialism. Roads you use? Socialism. Public schools you use? Socialism. How about emergent care? Socialism. Military? Socialism.

It isn't free if you're paying taxes. That is the point of taxes. 

[HiMyNameIsNick]

We have a time traveler here from the medieval era. 

 

 

Oh, btw, believe in God or die.

[Coops]

Want free college? Go to another country. I think our country is perfect the way it was. Before obummercare. It's up to a person to manage their lives and build something, not that the country should give them the world.

Think sickens me. You going to suggest the 50-80% tax to cover all the medical and education for everyone? You can't be serious. I can't get over fast food employees wanting 15 an hour either. Those are intro jobs, not real jobs meant to be live able wages.

What happened to the old days? You work or starve and die.

Hmm. I'm trying to decide which faulty line of thought to address first.

Let's see... our country has been helping people manage their lives, especially since Roosevelt. The country doesn't give them the world. They give back their taxes in the form of various ways, such as infrastructure, social security, healthcare and education. 

I'm going to suggest we close corporate tax loopholes and make the corporations actually carry their share of the tax burden. 

And last I checked, someone needs to put people's burgers together. Unless you're going to start making your own burgers, tacos and chicken sandwiches? No? Okay.

Those are real jobs that take energy, good task performance and time. Just because they don't measure up to your idea of "good" or "worthy" is irrelevant. If wages had actually kept up with inflation, fast food workers would make a 12 dollar wage. So, really, it's just another way for greedy people to pay as little as possible, because let's be honest.. humans can't be trusted to do the ethical thing and give their employees a living wage. 

The old days can suck it. Not everyone can work, and if you're advocating for their death, you have bigger issues than your paranoia about socialism.

This is relevant:

[DregsandDregs]

Want free college? Go to another country. I think our country is perfect the way it was. Before obummercare. It's up to a person to manage their lives and build something, not that the country should give them the world.

Think sickens me. You going to suggest the 50-80% tax to cover all the medical and education for everyone? You can't be serious. I can't get over fast food employees wanting 15 an hour either. Those are intro jobs, not real jobs meant to be live able wages.

What happened to the old days? You work or starve and die.

 

You DO realize that college used to be really heavily subsidized to the point of practically being free, right?  Like, in living memory recently.

 

You know that whole thing about working a part time job to put yourself through college?  Yeah, that's because of subsidiaries.  That's where a lot of the tax cuts for the boomers came from.

[Swar]

[HiMyNameIsNick]

[Coops]

I see so many people who don't work and have free this free that free health food stamps. The shit is bs. It all needs to be cut, all drug testing, we can't keep supporting the nation on its current plan. I've been working for the government since I was 17. I just cannot agree with the program's we have for people. Why is it people with no jobs can collect thousands for income tax? They don't pay taxes, they live in the tit of our hard work. I'd let them starve. Let those deserving get the benefits if someone has too.

I've decided you're either a Poe, or a troll. You have this misguided sense of "deserving". Either way, you're not actually making any palpable points that are debatable, so I'm done.

[HiMyNameIsNick]

You guys can laugh all you want, but can you guys truly agree with all these incentives for people to do nothing? Free this free that, it's such bs. I grew up working and earning the things you get.

I don't know when this ideology changed in our generation, but I really hope next presidents in future nix these programs.

 

 

It's impossible to talk to a Ted Cruz fan.

You don't understand the difference with people who can't pay a doctor or education and you think that most of the people are poor just because they want to be poor.

Edited by HiMyNameIsNick, 09 February 2016 - 03:22 PM.

[Coops]

It's impossible to talk with a Ted Cruz fan.

You don't understand the difference with people who can't pay a doctor or education and you think that most of the people are poor just because they want to be poor.

Yeah. That mindset drives me insane. If I could will some money, or good health into my life, I would have done that a decade ago instead of struggling to pay for college because I can't work, because I was unfortunate enough to be born with two brutal genetic conditions. How dare I have the audacity to be sick. I should just pull myself up by my bootstraps and stop being so lazy! 

 

You guys can laugh all you want, but can you guys truly agree with all these incentives for people to do nothing? Free this free that, it's such bs. I grew up working and earning the things you get.

I don't know when this ideology changed in our generation, but I really hope next presidents in future nix these programs.

Oh trust me, I'm not laughing. The lack of empathy is strong with you.

[DregsandDregs]

I see so many people who don't work and have free this free that free health food stamps. The shit is bs. It all needs to be cut, all drug testing, we can't keep supporting the nation on its current plan. I've been working for the government since I was 17. I just cannot agree with the program's we have for people. Why is it people with no jobs can collect thousands for income tax? They don't pay taxes, they live in the tit of our hard work. I'd let them starve. Let those deserving get the benefits if someone has too.

 

It's called payroll tax.  Part of your tax is taken out of your pay check.  Then tax season rolls around and the government goes, oh, they were taxed at a higher tax bracket, we owe them money.

 

There's a REASON why jobs ask if you're working another job: it's so they can correct your deductible.

 

So yes, they do pay taxes.

[Elindoril]

This all from the guy who also inherited, what, a million dollars? You sure didn't earn that. Better give it away so you can work for it.

[HiMyNameIsNick]

"You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day"

 

 

Thanks, Obama

I shouldn't be giving positive votes for free

Edited by HiMyNameIsNick, 09 February 2016 - 03:28 PM.

[Adam]

I haven't read the threat, nor do I plan to, so I'm sure this has been mentioned already, but I'm totally for free education as long as you maintain a certain GPA. There are plenty of brilliant underprivileged kids who can't afford college. No one should  be denied an education simply because they're too poor. One thing I'm curious about is how would the government lure people to joining the military? Obviously free education is a big benefit of honorable military service, and without that there's really not much benefit other than health coverage.

[DregsandDregs]

I haven't read the threat, nor do I plan to, so I'm sure this has been mentioned already, but I'm totally for free education as long as you maintain a certain GPA. There are plenty of brilliant underprivileged kids who can't afford college. No one should  be denied an education simply because they're too poor. One thing I'm curious about is how would the government lure people to joining the military? Obviously free education is a big benefit of honorable military service, and without that there's really not much benefit other than health coverage.

 

Funny thing: The education for service?  We nicked that from Germany.  Nazi Germany.

 

I'd also add, that even if you can't maintain a certain GPA (because being poor is stressful and you need to work a lot to make ends meet if you have low tier jobs) a certain number of classes a semester should be free.

[Adam]

Funny thing: The education for service?  We nicked that from Germany.  Nazi Germany.

 

I'd also add, that even if you can't maintain a certain GPA (because being poor is stressful and you need to work a lot to make ends meet if you have low tier jobs) a certain number of classes a semester should be free.

If your aim was to give me an interesting factoid that I didn't know about, you've succeeded. Otherwise the first line is arbitrary, and really doesn't mean much.

 

I agree with the second line. Being poor is tough, if you're willing to put in an ounce of work passed just showing up then education should be offered at no cost.

[Frizzle]

You don't understand what a plutocracy is, I don't think you're understanding of economics is viable either.