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The Trump Train(wreck) Thread

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#51 Ladida

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 03:20 PM

I don't get his reasoning for banning trans troops. Is he saying that they're taking hormone treatments or having elective surgeries while on or about to be on the front lines? Because that is the only thing that would make sense to me, if it's to ensure that troops aren't weakened by one of their men or women transitioning at a very bad time. But I somehow don't think transitioning is going to be at the forefront of their mind when they're trying keep themselves and their comrades alive, nor would they have the facilities. Does he mean that veterans get medical aid to fund the process after they complete their service? I can understand possibly if they were funding those surgeries over prosthetics, rehab, and therapy to save the mental health of the veterans, but I doubt that's the case.

 

I don't get why this is even a thing. Trump, and whoever is advising him, have really strange priorities. If someone could explain this for the non-Americans, that would be very helpful!



#52 Coops

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 03:57 PM

I don't get his reasoning for banning trans troops. Is he saying that they're taking hormone treatments or having elective surgeries while on or about to be on the front lines? Because that is the only thing that would make sense to me, if it's to ensure that troops aren't weakened by one of their men or women transitioning at a very bad time. But I somehow don't think transitioning is going to be at the forefront of their mind when they're trying keep themselves and their comrades alive, nor would they have the facilities. Does he mean that veterans get medical aid to fund the process after they complete their service? I can understand possibly if they were funding those surgeries over prosthetics, rehab, and therapy to save the mental health of the veterans, but I doubt that's the case.

I don't get why this is even a thing. Trump, and whoever is advising him, have really strange priorities. If someone could explain this for the non-Americans, that would be very helpful!

It's bigotry. End of. Trans people don't cost the military much. Military insurance (I have it) does not cover surgeries for transitioning. It covers counseling (which everyone with the same insurance has access to it, so this is a non-issue) and hormones (which are also covered for people who also need hormones for other reasons, so again non-issue). They aren't getting anything extra. And not only that but the whole slippery slope argument about trans people being in combat and being unreliable is fucking trash. 80% of military jobs are non-combat and less than 1% of the military is trans.

Deployments most often go to places with medical facilities that accommodate other soldiers who have issues. Deployability is based on whether the location can accommodate. People are not deployed for loads of reasons so claiming they are a burden is a farce since there are so many who aren't deployable and there are always stateside personnel.

Nevermind that there are so many critically manned positions that people are getting fat reenlistment bonuses because retention in the military is complete trash because military folk are constantly dehumanized and worked as slave labor

This is Trump pandering to bigoted fuckwaffles.

Edit: fixed the mistakes. Sorry for the incoherent mess. My back is out today and this particular issue makes me pissy pants.



#53 Adam

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 04:31 PM

I doubt Trump was being advised by anyone other than himself when he made this decision. From everyone I read today, the 4 service chiefs (the highest ranking generals and admiral of all 4 branches) had no idea this was coming nor was there any guidance on how to deal with the trans people already in. The military is a LOT of organized chaos, but this...this takes the cake and seems a bit off.


I don't get his reasoning for banning trans troops. Is he saying that they're taking hormone treatments or having elective surgeries while on or about to be on the front lines? Because that is the only thing that would make sense to me, if it's to ensure that troops aren't weakened by one of their men or women transitioning at a very bad time. But I somehow don't think transitioning is going to be at the forefront of their mind when they're trying keep themselves and their comrades alive, nor would they have the facilities. Does he mean that veterans get medical aid to fund the process after they complete their service? I can understand possibly if they were funding those surgeries over prosthetics, rehab, and therapy to save the mental health of the veterans, but I doubt that's the case.

 

I don't get why this is even a thing. Trump, and whoever is advising him, have really strange priorities. If someone could explain this for the non-Americans, that would be very helpful!

I really don't think the VA would cover such a procedure, and all of the hormones and whatever else goes into transitioning, it all depends on if the VA sees transitioning as something that is elective, or necessary for the health of a Veteran -- I doubt it's going to be the first of the two.

 

Final bit: I worked with a now trans-man back in Little Rock on the flight line, I'll just refer to him as RJ. They were a really great go-getter at the start of their transition, very hard working, and really good at what they did. During the transition, and with all the hormone therapy he started becoming extremely angry and flying off the handle at air crew, the jets, and himself, among other issues. After a short time, RJ was moved to the support section, which is not his primary job, where he was able to focus a little bit more on himself(nothing wrong with that) without having to deal with the amount of stress of working on the line. My point here is if someone is in the military, they may be moved around to multiple different jobs throughout their career, and there is nothing wrong with that. Slots in alternative jobs always need to be filled, as there are always people leaving said positions, and opening up room for someone else that needs it. Have faith that trans person can do the job until proven otherwise. If anyone is unable to do their primary job, move them to a secondary job, and maybe then, if they can't handle having a military job in any capacity at all, think about discharging them. This is the same policy that was followed when I got hurt, and I think that's the proper way to deal with it. But saying that just because someone is either going through the process, or already completed it, is inferior and incapable of doing a job is just wrong.

 

By the way, RJ has some serious fucking game. Before his transition, and even after, RJ was pulling some beautiful women...I was jealous! I saw him in downtown Little Rock every weekend I went out to the club!

 

Edit: I know I made the thoughts about RJ sound kind of negative, but like I briefly mentioned, they are a very hard working person, and gave their everything to their job. 



#54 Coops

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 04:42 PM

I doubt Trump was being advised by anyone other than himself when he made this decision. From everyone I read today, the 4 service chiefs (the highest ranking generals and admiral of all 4 branches) had no idea this was coming nor was there any guidance on how to deal with the trans people already in. The military is a LOT of organized chaos, but this...this takes the case and seems a bit off.

I really don't think the VA would cover such a procedure, and all of the hormones and whatever else goes into transitioning, it all depends on if the VA sees transitioning as something that is elective, or necessary for the health of a Veteran -- I doubt it's going to be the first of the two.


Yeah they wouldn't. But that's an entirely different issue - because they don't cover a lot of stuff that they should. The VA is garbage and needs a serious revamp for the sake of all veterans - trans or not. As I'm sure you're aware, unfortunately.

#55 Adam

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 04:50 PM

Yeah they wouldn't. But that's an entirely different issue - because they don't cover a lot of stuff that they should. The VA is garbage and needs a serious revamp for the sake of all veterans - trans or not. As I'm sure you're aware, unfortunately.

I couldn't agree more. I have service connected disability insurance and I have to wait 4 months to have my general physical done. The VA has a lot of problems in general, but I hope there will be help for my trans brothers and sisters, they don't deserve to be left out. They signed up to make the same sacrifices every other service member did...



#56 Romy

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 05:26 PM

Couldn't one argue that gender dysmorphia is a mental illness? Shouldn't individuals with this condition be disqualified from enlisting in the military the same as those with chronic depression or schizophrenia? 

 

Let's assume one is 100% honest with their recruiter when enlisting in any branch of the military. Someone with most preexisting conditions (asthma, history of mental illness) would NOT be allowed to enlist (USMC at least). Why should gender dysmorphia be treated any differently?

 

For those already enlisted, the military is obligated to care for them no matter what. But why allow someone to enlist if they have that condition?

 

Please don't rip my head off, I'm legit asking.

 

@Adam @Coops

 

 

Edit: This isn't the same as letting homosexuals enlist or peoples of different religions or ethnicities. People with mental illness require treatment. Why get mad at the military for not wanting to assume the responsibility of treating those enlisting with a mental illness?



#57 Coops

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 05:46 PM

Couldn't one argue that gender dysmorphia is a mental illness? Shouldn't individuals with this condition be disqualified from enlisting in the military the same as those with chronic depression or schizophrenia? 

 

Let's assume one is 100% honest with their recruiter when enlisting in any branch of the military. Someone with most preexisting conditions (asthma, history of mental illness) would NOT be allowed to enlist (USMC at least). Why should gender dysmorphia be treated any differently?

 

For those already enlisted, the military is obligated to care for them no matter what. But why allow someone to enlist if they have that condition?

 

Please don't rip my head off, I'm legit asking.

 

@Adam @Coops

 

 

Edit: This isn't the same as letting homosexuals enlist or peoples of different religions or ethnicities. People with mental illness require treatment. Why get mad at the military for not wanting to assume the responsibility of treating those enlisting with a mental illness?

Not every trans person has gender dysphoria and considering loads of active duty and reservists are treated for neurodivergence, depression and all sorts of mental illness, it's an invalid argument. Gender dysphoria and being trans are not mutually exclusive and do not mean the same thing.



#58 Romy

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 06:04 PM

Not every trans person has gender dysphoria and considering loads of active duty and reservists are treated for neurodivergence, depression and all sorts of mental illness, it's an invalid argument. Gender dysphoria and being trans are not mutually exclusive and do not mean the same thing.

You're missing my point.

 

If one is diagnosed with "neodivergence, depression and all sorts of mental illness" WHILE or AFTER enlisting in the military, the military is 100000% responsible for making sure they receive proper medical care.

 

I'm talking about BEFORE. No one with a history of mental illness is allowed to enlist in most branches of the military.

My question is why gender dysmorphia should be treated any differently,

 

Also, the National Center for Transgender Equality describes Transgender people as "people whose gender identity is different from the gender they were thought to be at birth."

The American Psychiatric Association describes Gender Dysmorhia as "a conflict between a person's physical or assigned gender and the gender with which he/she/they identify."



#59 Adam

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 06:05 PM



Couldn't one argue that gender dysmorphia is a mental illness? Shouldn't individuals with this condition be disqualified from enlisting in the military the same as those with chronic depression or schizophrenia? 

 

[A]

 

Let's assume one is 100% honest with their recruiter when enlisting in any branch of the military. Someone with most preexisting conditions (asthma, history of mental illness) would NOT be allowed to enlist (USMC at least). Why should gender dysmorphia be treated any differently?

 

[B]

[A]

One could argue that, in fact that's one of the biggest arguments behind not letting trans folks serve. It's believed they need more care than the normal/average person, the same can be said of those with depression, schizophrenia, and any other mental or physical illness. This is why there's lots of questions asked of you by a recruiter, and a general physical before enlisting. I  don't want to say gender dysphoria is a mental illness, I do think it's a little weird (science is weird and fascinating in general), but they're people and deserve the same rights and respect everyone else has. 

 

[B]

Waivers exist for almost everything in the military, I think transgender people should be able to get waivers. If someone comes and says, "Well, it's not someone else's business whether a person is trans or not.", generally speaking I agree with you. But your whole medical history is taken into account before enlisting/commissioning. 

 

Edit: I only say it's weird, because I don't understand and can't comprehend wanting to identify as the opposite gender. To me it's like trying to understand that space is infinite...I just can't comprehend that something goes on and on forever.



#60 Coops

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 06:10 PM

You're missing my point.

 

If one is diagnosed with "neodivergence, depression and all sorts of mental illness" WHILE or AFTER enlisting in the military, the military is 100000% responsible for making sure they receive proper medical care.

 

I'm talking about BEFORE. No one with a history of mental illness is allowed to enlist in most branches of the military.

My question is why gender dysmorphia should be treated any differently,

 

Also, the National Center for Transgender Equality describes Transgender people as "people whose gender identity is different from the gender they were thought to be at birth."

The American Psychiatric Association describes Gender Dysmorhia as "a conflict between a person's physical or assigned gender and the gender with which he/she/they identify."

It's not called gender dysmorphia. It's gender dysphoria. And not all trans people have it. You do not seem to understand much about being trans. Just wondering, do you know any trans people? Like are you close with any trans folk?

 

And you're wrong. People with a history of mental illness enlist all the time. sometimes



#61 Romy

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 06:26 PM

It's not called gender dysmorphia. It's gender dysphoria. And not all trans people have it. You do not seem to understand much about being trans. Just wondering, do you know any trans people? Like are you close with any trans folk?

Sorry. I'm writing this from my phone and didn't realize my mistake. The fact that I linked to an article on "dysphoria" instead of "dysmorphia" should have made that obvious to you.

 

Also, you're gatekeeping. Whether I know any trans people is irrelevant. I don't need to know any gay people to know that they deserve the right to marry or know any Hispanic people to know they shouldn't be treated as second class citizens.


And you're wrong. People with a history of mental illness enlist all the time.

Lol.



#62 Coops

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 06:28 PM

Sorry. I'm writing this from my phone and didn't realize my mistake. The fact that I linked to an article on "dysphoria" instead of "dysmorphia" should have made that obvious to you.

 

Also, you're gatekeeping. Whether I know any trans people is irrelevant. I don't need to know any gay people to know that they deserve the right to marry or know any Hispanic people to know they shouldn't be treated as second class citizens.

No, but knowing actual trans people would result in you actually knowing there is a distinction between being trans and having gender dysphoria. I didn't say you needed to know a trans person to know they should have civil rights. I asked if you knew one because I suspect you've never spoken to an actual trans person in your life about being trans or the trans community. I suspect if you had or at least hoped if you had, you'd know gender dysphoria =/= being trans. 

 

https://www.psychiat...ender-dysphoria

 

http://www.transequa...nsgender-people

 

If a trans person does not feel any distress about their identity, genitals or biological sex, they do not have gender dysphoria. It varies for trans people. But many trans people don't even transition sexually because they have no desire and do not feel that distress and incongruence.



#63 Romy

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 06:30 PM



[A]

One could argue that, in fact that's one of the biggest arguments behind not letting trans folks serve. It's believed they need more care than the normal/average person, the same can be said of those with depression, schizophrenia, and any other mental or physical illness. This is why there's lots of questions asked of you by a recruiter, and a general physical before enlisting. I  don't want to say gender dysphoria is a mental illness, I do think it's a little weird (science is weird and fascinating in general), but they're people and deserve the same rights and respect everyone else has. 

 

[B]

Waivers exist for almost everything in the military, I think transgender people should be able to get waivers. If someone comes and says, "Well, it's not someone else's business whether a person is trans or not.", generally speaking I agree with you. But your whole medical history is taken into account before enlisting/commissioning. 

 

Edit: I only say it's weird, because I don't understand and can't comprehend wanting to identify as the opposite gender. To me it's like trying to understand that space is infinite...I just can't comprehend that something goes on and on forever.

Yeah. Aren't waivers only given for physical disabilities though? I don't think they're given for mental illnesses. I don't think you'd want someone with a history of depression or schizophrenia on the shooting range. Again, my personal experience is through the USMC. I don't know about other branches.

 

I believe that people with any disability or illness should be treated the same as any one else. No one should be discriminated against. 



#64 Adam

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 06:33 PM

Yeah. Aren't waivers only given for physical disabilities though? I don't think they're given for mental illnesses. I don't think you'd want someone with a history of depression or schizophrenia on the shooting range. Again, my personal experience is through the USMC. I don't know about other branches.

 

I believe that people with any disability or illness should be treated the same as any one else. No one should be discriminated against. 

I personally don't think people with mental disabilities get in unless they lie or jump through hoops for a small chance at getting a waiver. I highly doubt a history of depression, people talking to you in your head, etc is waiverable; however, I don't have any statistics on this, merely speculation mixed with a little bit of experience.



#65 Coops

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 06:33 PM

For the record, my husband enlisted with a history of depression so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.



#66 Adam

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 06:41 PM

For the record, my husband enlisted with a history of depression so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Did he join when recruitment was low? The military has a history of adjusting recruitment standards based on need and total force numbers. I still don't think I agree that people get in all the time with documented mental disorders; I think more people get denied than not.



#67 Romy

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 06:43 PM

No, but knowing actual trans people would result in you actually knowing there is a distinction between being trans and having gender dysphoria. I didn't say you needed to know a trans person to know they should have civil rights. I asked if you knew one because I suspect you've never spoken to an actual trans person in your life about being trans or the trans community. I suspect if you had or at least hoped if you had, you'd know gender dysphoria =/= being trans. 

 

https://www.psychiat...ender-dysphoria

 

http://www.transequa...nsgender-people

 

If a trans person does not feel any distress about their identity, genitals or biological sex, they do not have gender dysphoria. It varies for trans people. But many trans people don't even transition sexually because they have no desire and do not feel that distress and incongruence.

It boils down to whether or not you view being trans as a mental illness/disorder.

 

If you DON'T view it as a mental illness, why should the military pay for what are then considered "elective" treatments (eg hormones as the military does not pay for gender reassignment)? Couldn't the lack of readily available treatment AND high stress associated with being enlisted lead to a gender dysphoria?

 

If you DO view it as a mental illness, why should someone be allowed to enlist if they have a diagnosed mental disability?


For the record, my husband enlisted with a history of depression so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Did he lie to his recruiter or enlist following 9/11? 



#68 Adam

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 06:47 PM

If you DON'T view it as a mental illness, why should the military pay for what are then considered "elective" treatments (eg hormones as the military does not pay for gender reassignment)? Couldn't the lack of readily available treatment AND high stress associated with being enlisted lead to a gender dysphoria?

 

In the Air Force (not sure about other branches), you're generally allotted 1 elective surgery. I got LASIK for free, and that counted as mine; a girl I know got a boob job, which tricare paid for, because she was self conscious about her small breasts. I don't see much of a problem with letting someone go through with gender reassignment surgery/therapy.



#69 Coops

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 06:51 PM

Did he join when recruitment was low? The military has a history of adjusting recruitment standards based on need and total force numbers. I still don't think I agree that people get in all the time with documented mental disorders; I think more people get denied than not.

Not sure, but it's possible. It was in 2011, so idk. It's worth noting the people I know in with documented histories have history from childhood. That may change how they deal with it. His was childhood history. 

 

 

It boils down to whether or not you view being trans as a mental illness/disorder.

 

If you DON'T view it as a mental illness, why should the military pay for what are then considered "elective" treatments (eg hormones as the military does not pay for gender reassignment)? Couldn't the lack of readily available treatment AND high stress associated with being enlisted lead to a gender dysphoria?

 

If you DO view it as a mental illness, why should someone be allowed to enlist if they have a diagnosed mental disability?


Did he lie to his recruiter or enlist following 9/11? 

Tricare covers elective shit all the time and they should pay because people in the military work really fucking hard in general, they give up their freedom for a contracted amount of time, they don't get hourly pay, they can be forced to work without breaks or weekends endlessly, they get treated like shit, they don't even get federal holidays off, among so much more - I think we as a government can afford to cover healthcare whether it's elective or not. Since they cost us a drop in a bucket, I don't think arguing "why should they pay" is necessarily valid, especially given that military active duty literally pay for their insurance anyways. And high stress and lack of readily available treatment is true for other military with other conditions and that doesn't seem to be a problem. It's only an issue with trans people. And someone's "view" or "opinion" about being trans is irrelevant. It is factual to state that being trans and having gender dysphoria (a mental illness) are not the same thing. Trump's ban didn't specify only trans people with gender dysphoria. It said ALL trans people. So arguing the mental illness aspect is pointless.

Also illness =/= disability. Yes, some people with mental illnesses are disabled. But not all. 

And no he did not.



#70 Romy

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 07:11 PM

In the Air Force (not sure about other branches), you're generally allotted 1 elective surgery. I got LASIK for free, and that counted as mine; a girl I know got a boob job, which tricare paid for, because she was self conscious about her small breasts. I don't see much of a problem with letting someone go through with gender reassignment surgery/therapy.

Jesus fuck. I need to join the Air Force.



#71 Coops

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 07:18 PM

For anyone interested this is the healthcrap bill they are voting on tonight:

 

https://www.budget.s...eFreedomAct.pdf



#72 Romy

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 07:21 PM

Not sure, but it's possible. It was in 2011, so idk. It's worth noting the people I know in with documented histories have history from childhood. That may change how they deal with it. His was childhood history. 

 

 

Tricare covers elective shit all the time and they should pay because people in the military work really fucking hard in general, they give up their freedom for a contracted amount of time, they don't get hourly pay, they can be forced to work without breaks or weekends endlessly, they get treated like shit, they don't even get federal holidays off, among so much more - I think we as a government can afford to cover healthcare whether it's elective or not. Since they cost us a drop in a bucket, I don't think arguing "why should they pay" is necessarily valid, especially given that military active duty literally pay for their insurance anyways.

 

Most people with healthcare pay for their insurance. Just because you're paying for it doesn't mean you're entitled to any procdure you want UNLESS it's medical necessity. (unless you're in the air force apparently).

 

 

And high stress and lack of readily available treatment is true for other military with other conditions and that doesn't seem to be a problem. It's only an issue with trans people.

 

Again. I'm talking about enlisting with prior history of a mental illness. After consulting with a few other people, it seems like people with a childhood history of mental illness are allowed to enlist so long as they did not receive verifiable treatment for that illness as an adult and did not disclose it to their recruiter. If you enlist, the military has an obligation to treat you for whatever illnesses you have (physical or mental). That's a distinction you seem to be repeatedly glossing over.

 

 

And someone's "view" or "opinion" about being trans is irrelevant. It is factual to state that being trans and having gender dysphoria (a mental illness) are not the same thing. Trump's ban didn't specify only trans people with gender dysphoria. It said ALL trans people. So arguing the mental illness aspect is pointless.

 

Fair. But I'm not arguing to defend Trump's ban as it applies to currently enlisted peoples. Only those who seek to enlist.

 

Also illness =/= disability. Yes, some people with mental illnesses are disabled. But not all. 

And no he did not.

 

It was a childhood thing as you mentioned above. Did not count.



#73 Adam

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 07:22 PM

Jesus fuck. I need to join the Air Force.

Best decision I've ever made :]



#74 Sweeney

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 05:02 AM

Just as an fyi, medically necessary procedures are not necessarily "elective" just because they're not based on illness.

#75 Padme

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 02:25 PM

Can't believe that bill failed by only one vote.

 

Kind of scary. 





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