116 replies to this topic

[Bryan]

... ok firstly there's a difference between observing a naturally occurring event and recording it, and manipulating participants to find out what happens.

There's a difference between statistic that's gathered from recording height and weight amongst 10 year olds, and an experiment where people are trialling a drug. The first is observational, the second is manipulation by the person gathering the information.

And if you know anything about statistics, you should know that a census type sample size is always going to be impossible and that a smaller sample size can be representative of a larger population as long as certain criteria stay consistent (such as all people who take the test are at university and then the results are only representative for uni students). For example The stats department asks all their student to take a test during tutorial time, one person goes out of the class at a time, fills the form in, then another person does it. I believe some other departments do the same test. There's more stuff they do to ensure it's a representative sample but to be honest it was 2 years ago now and I forget.

Your first statement is indeed correct, but that's the only one.

Statistics are experiments, they are testing a hypothesis (I think 50% of people surveyed are virgins) and you make observations and come up with a conclusion. An experiment where people trial a drug, well I have a hypothesis (50% of men who take viagra don't have an increase in erection length), I then make observations and come up with a conclusion. Wow, the same isn't it, this is where I say "Derka derka."

And if you knew anything about science, you'd know that no smaller sample size can be representative or a replacement for anything. I say 5/10 people are virgins, but we tested 100, and saw that 36 are... tested 1000 and 340 were, 10000 and 5000 were. Stats vary with every experiment, which is why you can't say "I dun readed an experiment by my professors and dey dun said dat 50% of college kids are virgins" unless you give the parameters of the experiment to understand the flaws and the fluctuation the outcome will have.

You also said that it was a completely anonymous sample, yet they TARGETED only students of stats department.

'sex is life'? Interesting concept. What a fascinating life you must lead if sex consumes your every moment.

To be honest, I find it sad that people don't understand that there is more to life that having sex.

Maybe I'm taking you a bit too literally but still. I don't regret anything. I wouldn't change anything.

To be honest, I find it sad you're so stubborn. It's not a matter of understanding, because it's not fact, it's opinion. If life is sex to people, than let them hold that belief.

lol...ok im not telling u to regret but answer me this lets say ur penis was cut(no homo) ur telling me you will be ok with not having sex ever again

Kitsune has no penis, so I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem.

[Sweeney]

Perhaps if you will not take it from a student of law, you may in fact take it from someone who is a scientist-in-training?

A survey is not an experiment.

And no, of course a survey will not be totally representative of an entire population, but as long as the only variables that go unremarked are those on which the dependant is not, in fact, dependant, then the statement is valid.
For example, there is no reason why the course of a particular student should affect his virginity. In practise, the rates of virginity-loss will vary between course groups, but only because of natural variation. There would not be a statistically valid corellation between course and virginity from year to year.

[Frizzle]

'sex is life'? Interesting concept. What a fascinating life you must lead if sex consumes your every moment.

To be honest, I find it sad that people don't understand that there is more to life that having sex.

Maybe I'm taking you a bit too literally but still. I don't regret anything. I wouldn't change anything.

Says alot about your sex life

[Sida]

lol...ok im not telling u to regret but answer me this lets say ur penis was cut(no homo) ur telling me you will be ok with not having sex ever again

I wouldn't be ok with it no...

But i could just as easily say...if both your legs got removed...would you be ok not walking?

[Bryan]

How can you honestly believe that an observational data set is the same as data gained from an experiment? The latter can determine causation, the former can only determine a correlation.

It is, period. Data gained from an experiment is observational data. When you have an experiment to find the melting point of water, what do you do? You observe the changes and record them, if that isn't observational data, than I must be off my rocker.

And how the hell did you come up with the statement that statistics are all around proving or disproving hypothesis'. Tell me, the 5 yearly census that the government do, tell me exactly how that's aiming to prove or disprove hypothesis'. It's not. The aim is simply data collection not to prove a hypothesis.

That is all statistics are about. Tell me, a certain Energy drink boasts 80% fruit juice, does it not? (Monster M-80). I conduct an experiment (or in your words, I "collect observational data") testing the amount of fruit juice in 1000 monsters. My Hypothesis is that the average amount of fruit juice in Monster Energy drink is 80%, my null hypothesis is that the amount of fruit juice =/= 80%. The government census is an experiment. For instance, it could be trying to enact minimum wage laws around the nation. The average amount of income for someone 5 years ago was $5.10/hr. The government believes that they will receive better backing in passing the legislation if the amount of income hasn't increased. Their hypothesis is that the average amount of income is 5.10/hr, they conduct the experiment whilst 'observing data' and reach a conclusion, or to dumb it down for you, the number with the percentage sign next to it.

I also told you other departments do the tests too. I honestly wish you would read the words I am typing because you really don't seem to get anything I've said. Statistic students (plus the other students) may not be entirely representative of the entire student population but every survey will have sample bias.

It's because everything you've said is completely wrong. I guarantee you in the states, testing students at ASU, OSU or any other party school will yield a higher percentage of people who've lost their virginity, whereas a private devout catholic university in Mississippi would not even scratch their numbers. And you're proving my point, every survey has a sample bias, so how am I supposed to take 50% as a valid number when you can't give the parameters of the experiment? Because after all, it is biased

Dear god did you just imply I know nothing about science? Are you barking kidding me? I can't even comprehend how you came up with that conclusion.

Yea, kind of implied that, glad you realized it Statistics is a science. Economics is a science. Any subject in which you test hypotheses is a science. I feel obligated to convey the notion that you know nothing of science, when it seems you don't even know the basic definition.

I already told you, if you can't do census level studies (in case you don't know what that means, it means studying every single individual), smaller groups are the only way to make a representation of a larger populous.

Dear god did I upset Kitsune, she's making smart ass comments . Smaller groups are the only way to make a representation of a larger populous. But if you test a few kids at a university, the 'larger populous' is the university. You can't base an entire age group off a few simple tests run every couple of years by the subject departments. That's just plain ignorant.

You realise I simply said it is my opinion that those who find sex the center of their lives are sad. I never said they don't have the right to do that. It has no effect on me so I don't care. I just strongly believe there's much more to life than sex, and if people can't understand that, then they're missing out. I'm not being stubborn on the issue at all.

Obviously it effects you, otherwise why would you be debating that fact? You do care, so don't say you don't. If you strongly believe there is more to life than sex, so be it. I think there is more to life than wanting a pair of functioning legs, but I don't feel sad for paraplegics, that's just my opinion. But I'm always OPEN to find out WHY paraplegics want a pair of functioning legs. That's where I'm different, I'm willing to look on the other side of things and consider the fact that sex could be someone's life, a lot of porn stars have made a living of that. Not being open, as you are in this case, is called being stubborn which in case you didn't know what that means, you are fixed in opinion.

A survey is not an experiment.

Read post above

And no, of course a survey will not be totally representative of an entire population, but as long as the only variables that go unremarked are those on which the dependant is not, in fact, dependant, then the statement is valid.


For example, there is no reason why the course of a particular student should affect his virginity.

So if I took an elective class in porn star 101, there'd be no difference in the amount of virgins opposed to Abstinence or God will make you burn in hell for all eternity 202? What broad statements for such a closed mind.

In practise, the rates of virginity-loss will vary between course groups,

[Mckilla]

How can you honestly believe that an observational data set is the same as data gained from an experiment? The latter can determine causation, the former can only determine a correlation.

And how the hell did you come up with the statement that statistics are all around proving or disproving hypothesis'. Tell me, the 5 yearly census that the government do, tell me exactly how that's aiming to prove or disprove hypothesis'. It's not. The aim is simply data collection not to prove a hypothesis.

I also told you other departments do the tests too. I honestly wish you would read the words I am typing because you really don't seem to get anything I've said. Statistic students (plus the other students) may not be entirely representative of the entire student population but every survey will have sample bias.

Dear god did you just imply I know nothing about science? Are you barking kidding me? I can't even comprehend how you came up with that conclusion.

I already told you, if you can't do census level studies (in case you don't know what that means, it means studying every single individual), smaller groups are the only way to make a representation of a larger populous.

You realise I simply said it is my opinion that those who find sex the center of their lives are sad. I never said they don't have the right to do that. It has no effect on me so I don't care. I just strongly believe there's much more to life than sex, and if people can't understand that, then they're missing out. I'm not being stubborn on the issue at all.

Lastly I'm not a damn guy, I thought my answers actually made this clear, but I'm in fact a woman, and of course I'd care if I couldn't have sex again. Doesn't make it my whole life.

lol...you guys take this to serious. Its not a good look if these typed words can control your emotions

[Bryan]

lol...you guys take this to serious. Its not a good look if these typed words can control your emotions

+1 Imaginary rep for incompetence.

[Sakura]

Zerodelocke and I were 16 the first time we slept together. Now...do I regret it? No. Do I regret a child that early? Sometimes.
We used a condom and it busted on us, I got pregnant the first time I ever had sex.

We never dated outside of each other after we decided on a commitment to one another in that way (our parents separated us for 2 years however). We're married for almost 3 years now, and quite happy. Sex with the one you love it great, not only do you get the pleasure that you may have wanted, but you also have a no guilt feeling afterwards. I don't know how to explain the feeling without, perhaps, getting a little too detailed for a mostly teen site. Abstaining while he was gone was very very simple for me. We were ready for sex, and for one another, at 16 but a LOT of 16 year olds are not. You cannot put a date on it.

That being said, its obvious that a lot of people don't agree. despite being married, the family planning clinic that I go to forces me to take a full range of STD tests every year and a "prescription" for condoms. That's right, when I pick up my pills I get a 50 count box of Trojans, that's a lot of fun to pick up when an old lady is behind you in line. XD

[Sweeney]

*quotes Bryan*

Thing is, you're making up courses to prove your point.
In practise, there will be a difference between students studying biology, and those studying drama. However, the drama students will not be studying drama because they had sex earlier, nor will they have sex earlier because they are studying drama.

Secondly, you cite the example of an experiment to determine the boiling point of water, when this does not apply to the situation.
The reason it does not apply is because, in such an experiment, you are artifically varying the temperature of the water to determine at what point it boils.
This is in fact, what makes it an experiment, as opposed to an observational investigation.

[illicit]

I think that if you're ready to have sex and it's with someone you care about then it's all fine and dandy. My boyfriend and I were going out for a year before we had sex, and I didn't regret any aspect of it--waiting for a year, or having sex when I was 15. As long as you're mature and responsible enough to make the decisions that need made if you bark up and get pregnant, then I say you're good to go.

As far as "why can't people just wait until they're 18?" I know many 18+ year olds who still aren't mature enough to deal with an unexpencted pregnancy, and they have crazy promiscuous sex all the time.

And I don't know the statutory rape laws for other countries, but in Missouri (United States) it is 14 years old. A 14 year old can consent to sex with anyone under the age of 21. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Frizzle]

We used a condom and it busted on us, I got pregnant the first time I ever had sex.

Hahaha. Sorry, found that funny. Good job

[Bryan]

*quotes Bryan*

Thing is, you're making up courses to prove your point.
In practise, there will be a difference between students studying biology, and those studying drama.

Just like there will be a difference in students taking a statistics course and those attending a sex ed seminar -- my case in point.

Secondly, you cite the example of an experiment to determine the boiling point of water, when this does not apply to the situation.
The reason it does not apply is because, in such an experiment, you are artifically varying the temperature of the water to determine at what point it boils.
This is in fact, what makes it an experiment, as opposed to an observational investigation.

It's not done artificially.

And that is not what makes an experiment. An experiment in layman's terms, is a hypothesis, a control, a variable, observation of both and a conclusion based on 'observational investigation'.

Read the experiment involving fruit juice in an energy drink, it's not 'artificially varying', which is what you claim 'makes' an experiment, yet it still is one...

[Frizzle]

Lee Believe me, just because my life doesn't revolve around sex, it does in no way make my sex life even close to terrible.
I know it sometimes seems like you must ridicule others to make you appear better, but really it does nothing but make you seem petty. Just my opinion of course.

Oh don't worry, I'm pretty sure it's great and I mean you must know alot about sex, a mean, you was a virgin until John. Don't worry, we've all heard before, the sex must be great because you love the guy and all that bullshit.. blah blah.

[Kimoflea]

.. sex is just fun? And healthy! You burn calories and it releases endorphins which make you happy and combat depression. It helps keep hormones in check, and it's been proven that plenty of sex keeps skin clear and hair shiny

Making love is different to sex. Keep them separate and enjoy sex for what it is!

[Bryan]

Honestly Bryan. There is no point in trying to argue with you. If, after Joe's and my own explanations on the subject, you still can't understand, then you simply never will. If you don't understand that there's a difference between something you observe and something you create then I actually feel pity for you.

You feel pity for me because I've disproved statements by two people? I still have yet to see any validity to a statement from you or Joe that comes back to the point of a Statistic being an experiment.

Unfortunately, you don't even seem to realise you made my point quite clearly several times, but seem incapable of realising it.

I'm perfectly capable of understanding anyone's point of view on a subject, as long as that point can hold some ground. I don't know how I improved upon your point when each one of my responses was disproving that which you said.

You even said "It's not done artificially" That's what I was talking about when I say a data set which is observed - it's not done artificially because it occurs naturally. The results are created by the experimenter's participation - the experimenter gives a person a drug then tests the results. Rather than someone who simply collects existing data - such as collecting a person's blood pressure and weight and observing the correlation. These don't suddenly exist because the person collecting the data suddenly wants to collect that data.

I'm glad you can understand the definition of artificial, although it is limited. Artificially also means 'made without regard to the particular needs of a situation'. In the water experiment, on which your quote of me was taken entirely out of context, raising the temperature of water is not artificial, it is needed in regard to the particular needs of a situation. Results are not created by an experimenter's participation, the experimenter gives none a drug (the control of the experiment, for those who are scientifically challenged) and then the experimenter gives some a drug (also known as the variable, in case you haven't learned that yet). Correlations are a form of experiment, you need two different variables on the axis to make a correlation (something to compare it against, an X and Y axis). And the data does exist because the person collecting the data suddenly wants to collect it. Say I want to enact legislation to lower the amount of saturated fat because it raises cholesterol, I collect the average cholesterol level of those who eat more than 60% of their daily intake of fat in saturated sugars. I compare that to someone elses study of regular levels of cholesterol in those who intake no saturated sugars taken 5 years ago. My result is going to be biased. I 'experimented' with a control and a variable.

And if you think that there's a statistically significant difference from one department to the next, then why is it that results stay consistent in all the departments collected from, over all the years they've done the tests. If it were an unstable variable, you'd expect results to vary year to year, department to department. And yet, they don't.

I would gladly like to see something that says that there is no statistical difference from one department to another over the years. Until then, you are once again making statements without malformed information, something I can't take as credible.

What exactly makes you believe you know better?

I use facts and make concise points. You ramble about opinion. I'm surprised that someone who has done 'level 1 and 2 science papers' and is currently studying law nonetheless doesn't even know the two main points needed in an argument. But hey, I pray if you ever indeed become a lawyer, please be representing the other side of a case I'm involved in, that way I'd be guaranteed a win.

[Sweeney]

Look.
To put it as bluntly as possible:

An experiment requires the intervention of an experimenter to alter a variable in order to measure the effects on another variable.

Clearly, a statistical survey does not satisfy this requirement, therefore rendering it not an experiment, and, accordingly, different to an experiment.

[Bryan]

Look.
To put it as bluntly as possible:

An experiment requires the intervention of an experimenter to alter a variable in order to measure the effects on another variable.

Clearly, a statistical survey does not satisfy this requirement, therefore rendering it not an experiment, and, accordingly, different to an experiment.

An experiment requires testing a variable against a defined and unchanging subject. Hence why you need a control and a variable.

*yawn* It's getting quite boring reading your same argument over and over, and proving you wrong in several ways for you to simply restate your same argument.

I've yet to see a point you've made that has a factual bases, all I hear from you is "I don't have the studies on me." As soon as you make a point, or indeed 'prove me wrong' I will gladly rewrite my argument to include those.

Whether or not you have a hypothesis does not make something an experiment.

This link might show otherwise, http://www.mdx.ac.uk...icalExperiments , notice the label "statistical experiment", can you read what step 4 says, quoted out of Frances Clegg's Simple Statistics, the Summary of experimental procedure.

CODE

Express the idea formally as an experimental hypothesis.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but this is quoted out of a published book, obviously there is something of merit to back my point, the fact that a hypothesis is needed to make an experiment. Where's yours? Oh right, you "don't have the studies" on you.

And wow, an insult to me as a lawyer too. Interesting that I get mostly A's in my assignments then eh? Must be getting a bit low on arguments so you're going to try and make me feel bad. Interesting choice I must say. You're yet to back up what you've said in any way. My information comes from the papers I've done. Where's your info coming from? Web definitions and the ideas that go through your head aren't actually something to be relied upon.

First off, you're not a lawyer, here in American, a pre-requisite of passing the BAR exam to become one. Your a law student, and you're learning in order to get a degree. It is extremely interesting you get A's on your assignments, those must be the papers that require no factual merit then, or maybe you actually spend time trying to find fact to back up an opinion, you should try that here to, or whenever you're making an argument. I are yet to back up what I've said? I speak english for one, don't know what sort of dialect you practice in New Zealand, but I've cited web references and book references, whereas you rely solely upon your information from papers that you've written (as a student by the way, definitely something of merit) that you have conveniently misplaced.

I ramble do I? Look at your 3rd paragraph and reconsider if you really want to accuse me of rambling. You just repeated your same basic opinion for what, the third time? Not sure, I lost count there.

Ramble: to talk or write in a discursive, aimless way. I hardly call rewording fact in the efforts that a stubborn law student will come to grounds being a ramble.But I'm glad you know your Kindergarten math skills. Kind of got me worried when you said you lost count.

Don't worry, even if you repeat your argument for a fourth time, I don't think I need to waste my time replying to you. Even if you realise you're wrong, I doubt you're going to admit it any time now.

So be it. But I'm not one to lie, I'll gladly admit to anything that I'm wrong about.

[Sweeney]

An experiment requires testing a variable against a defined and unchanging subject. Hence why you need a control and a variable.

I fail to see how that is a contradiction to what I wrote...

If you actually look at it, a survey still has neither a control, nor a variable.

[Stepoo]

I don't expect an apology but it would be nice.

You guys should apolgize to the topic starter for totally hijacking her thread.

Why not start a new topic? I mean, it is general debating

Edited by Stepoo, 16 July 2007 - 06:37 PM.

[Bryan]

Just a note I haven't forgotten about this, I still would like to reply, just don't have the time at the moment. But don't think I'm avoiding this =P

[DudeOnline]

i lost my virginity at 18, and honestly, I would still be one, as of 9 months ago, if i had known the girl i lost my virginity to would dump me later on.

[Bryan]

Blah, still trying to muster the brain power for a reply. It will not be quite as 'heated' as my previous posts, but I still have a rebuttal! Haha, sorry it's been so long.

[astrologically]

The withdraw method is very ineffective...if even a drop of precum leaks out into the girl during intercourse, that's thousands of little sperm, you'll see how fast she gets pregnant.
and what kind of birth control are you talking about @_o
there's plenty of birth control that doesn't make you miss your period or gain weight, science has definitely improved on that.

oh yeah, plus there's shots and things you can get now that will last for a few years, (or a few months depending on which you get) if you get tired of taking birth control.

Edited by astrologically, 04 August 2007 - 05:58 PM.

[astrologically]

Ok well try telling a family planning person or even a doctor that you want alternate contraception. They believe every guy who isn't married is a cheater riddled with stds so are unlikely to advise not using condoms and relying on anything else.

And actually birth control can be limited when you have family history of strokes or other problems. There aren't as many option when you are only allowed to take a progestrogen only pill (mini pill).

And the injection one can increase your chances of becoming sterile.

Yeah, but about everything you do has it's risks.

http://womenshealth....entpregnanc.htm
^
large list of contraceptive choices.

[Frizzle]

A condom and the pill are the most effective forms of contraception, and are free from your health clinics and local doctor, so there's no excuse really, unless you're really unlucky