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#51 Ives

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 07:24 PM

How did this post help the debate again?

I already said sorry for flaming.



Disregard then, I was mainly aiming to respond to that :thumbsup: -Reads the rest-

#52 Vegas

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 07:26 PM

o man im gettin lost in this debate..too much stuff to read and msn ppl keep takin my time...so forgive me as is the christian way if I miss something

#53 Vegas

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 07:30 PM

That's not horrible. That's reality. Mary does not have anything special then any other person in heaven. Does that mean I can ask my great grandpa for guidance too?

u person...she was the one HAND CHOSEN BY GOD.I think that would be PRETTY DAMN special.she raised jesus and guided him in his early stages even though jesus figure out alot of his stuff by himself.god sent his angel gabriel to her personally to ask her to bear his child.

#54 Guest_Casilla_*

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 07:30 PM

That's not horrible. That's reality. Mary does not have anything special then any other person in heaven. Does that mean I can ask my great grandpa for guidance too?


Yes! Your great grandpa should be watching over you, shouldn't he? You don't worship your great-grandpa, but perhaps you admired him and aspire to live a life inspired by his Goodness, eh? It goes back to that WWJD thing. You ask Jesus for guidance, but you also can ask Saints for guidance, or angels, because they are ALL watching out for you and have your back. It's a show of respect.

#55 Ives

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 07:30 PM

That's not horrible. That's reality. Mary does not have anything special then any other person in heaven. Does that mean I can ask my great grandpa for guidance too?


If there wasnt a mary, there wouldnt be a christian faith O.O

Jesus loves you john

If you knew anything about the mormons you would not be talking nicely about them. I would suggest the book "The God Makers". It released all the diry pagan details behind mormanism. What's funny is the mormons tried to get it banned because they were already losing half their church. It's banned in Utah period, really funny how one religion can fall to one book.


God I hate the 'Contradictions' on mormons. Jesus is jesus, whether he smoked pot with indians or just returned to heaven O.o it really isnt much of an add unless im mistaken from what I saw at the st. latterday church in utah.

Edited by Athean, 02 January 2006 - 07:35 PM.


#56 Vegas

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 07:38 PM

Not true once again. If there was no mary, he could of chose John's mother to bear it. He could of choose 10000 of the other women at the time.
:lol:

but he didnt did he?god chose mary no one else.wats done is done.she was the chosen one.and god SAYS that everything that happens is in HIS will so chosing MARY was IN HIS WIll,therefore Mary was just not some randomly picked person

Edited by Scope, 02 January 2006 - 07:39 PM.


#57 Ives

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 07:39 PM

Actually the angel came to Joseph, who in return listned and took mary with him. So is he a saint too? While I'm at it, should I start naming the 1000+ people in the bible that also would deserve saint hood according to you?

And Mary didn't teach Jesus anything, it wasn't by himself, it was God. He's the son of God, obviously he may know a thing or two ;)
I never saw a WWMD. There are no saints in christianity, the only person you can contact through prayer is Jesus and Jesus ONLY.
Not true once again. If there was no mary, he could of chose John's mother to bear it. He could of choose 10000 of the other women at the time.
:lol:

Mormons don't believe in the same Jesus. They see him as a 'man', not a divine being.



ahhhh. didnt know about the jesus, just wondering. well thats not a big deal there. Though I have to say the state they pretty much live in sucks (Utah). just because it does, not because of their presence.

Oh yeah, Joseph smith >.< I thought Joseph smith and jesus were both prophets?

Yeah, I thought there was a reason for marys importance. guess not? But she must of been special in some way if shes bearing the lord of assholes son (Though the son himself is cool <3 dogma)

#58 Vegas

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 07:45 PM

I g2g now...early day tomro..add me on [email protected] if u mite wanna talk about this later(not rele)nah I think ur cool enuff
good debate no hate
laters

#59 jillian

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 07:49 PM

Actually, children that lack the capability to understand God goto heaven anyways, so your point is meaningless. Now it would count, you obviously have enough intelligence to understand how He works, and here you are denying Him.

If you knew anything about the mormons you would not be talking nicely about them. I would suggest the book "The God Makers". It released all the diry pagan details behind mormanism. What's funny is the mormons tried to get it banned because they were already losing half their church. It's banned in Utah period, really funny how one religion can fall to one book.

Also let me point back to my Kindess factor again. About our God being that mean. You never did answer that.

....... I'm not denying him. Please read more of my posts than what you want to.

I don't want to read any more propaganda about the Mormons. One of my friends already shared with me the juicy details of sick cults with inbred mutant children, etc etc etc. People go astray, people go overboard, in every religion. People forget the basis of faith and instead, make the faith their basis for sin. Maybe the Mormon religion is based on a lie, in fact, it's entirely likely. But you know all about doing things based on faith and not fact, don't you? The fact remains that their church is reformed and their people try to be good. Get over your preconceptions.

Actually the angel came to Joseph, who in return listned and took mary with him. So is he a saint too? While I'm at it, should I start naming the 1000+ people in the bible that also would deserve saint hood according to you?

And Mary didn't teach Jesus anything, it wasn't by himself, it was God. He's the son of God, obviously he may know a thing or two ;)
I never saw a WWMD. There are no saints in christianity, the only person you can contact through prayer is Jesus and Jesus ONLY.
Not true once again. If there was no mary, he could of chose John's mother to bear it. He could of choose 10000 of the other women at the time.
:lol:

Mormons don't believe in the same Jesus. They see him as a 'man', not a divine being. Please do me a favor and go read up on mormons, im sure you will be overwhelmingly shocked at some of the stuff they do, then come back and share some correct information.

Yes, actually, Joseph is a saint. as are many many other thousands of good people. Everyone in heaven is a Saint in Catholicism - that's the definitions, if I'm not very mistaken.

In Catholicism, Mary was a special girl who was not without sin, but who was fundamentally good; a woman to be a good follower as well as a leader to a gifted and peculiar young son. She had a strong faith in a man who would have been considered by less strong women to be a freak and a blasphemer. God chose her because of her unswerving faith and goodness. (Of course, she is only a human and she did sin; while she is not perfect, she was a good Christian in the face of persecution of herself and her son)

Oh, and mormons do believe in Jesus as a god, that's why they now call themselves The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, darling. Quote from LDS website:

President Gordon B. Hinckley, Liahona and Ensign, Dec. 2005, 2–6
"We do not worship the Prophet [Joseph]. We worship God our Eternal Father and the risen Lord Jesus Christ. But we acknowledge the Prophet; we proclaim him; we respect him; we reverence him as an instrument in the hands of the Almighty in restoring to the earth the ancient truths of the divine gospel, together with the priesthood."


Edited by jillian, 02 January 2006 - 07:55 PM.


#60 Guest_Casilla_*

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 07:58 PM

Excuse me? What are these lies being spread about Mormons?!

Mormons believe in Jesus. Are you crazy? They're Jesus fanatics. The Catholics don't hold a torch to Mormon fanatics.

I absolutely despise the Mormon hate that is out there. If you've ever met a Mormon, you'd know it that everything you read about them is a complete and utter lie.

Mormons are the nicest, most generous people I have ever met. They partake in community service more than any other Christian youth group, they routinely give up their salaries to charity, they are extremely nice people...and what's even more, I have met very few haters in that religion. They are extremely tolerant of other people's beliefs.

Are we Christians? Yes!
Latter-day Saints believe in Christ as the Savior, the Redeemer, the Son of God, the Creator of the earth, and the only source of salvation. It is His love and grace that give meaning to life and hope to humanity. We believe in the Bible, which plainly teaches that Christ is our Savior and that all men must repent and come unto Christ to be saved. Some critics proclaim that Mormons are not Christians and don't believe in Christ. I really don't like other people telling me what I believe! As a Latter-day Saint, I have been taught, and have personally chosen, to accept Christ as my Savior. I am taught to follow Him, to rely on His love, and to feast on His word. I know that real Mormons are Christians. We worship Christ and covenant to follow Him. We are baptized in His name to follow Him, we partake of the sacrament (the holy communion) weekly to remember the sacrifice of His blood and to remember His victory over death, we pray to the Father in His name, and we strive to obey Him, knowing that it is only through His merits and grace that we are saved. He is constantly held up in our meetings as our Savior, our Redeemer, our Lord, and the author of our faith and our salvation. We believe that He stands at the head of His living Church, leading it as in days of old through revelation to His prophets and apostles. The Christ we worship is the living Christ, the Son of God, foretold in the Old Testament, revealed in the New Testament, and affirmed in The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.


Alias, do not believe everything you read on the Internet. The Mormons are very nice, and furthermore, God-fearing people. They believe in Jesus, there is no doubt about that.

Edited by Casilla, 02 January 2006 - 08:00 PM.


#61 jillian

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 08:02 PM

by the way what kindness factor? Sorry, but I was taken aback by your tunnel vision concerning my posts.

... How many versions of the Christian Bible are there? How many Books have been added and thrown out - mainly becuase they hold most of the same information and are redundant, but that isn't all the reasons.

Your God is unforgiving, I don't care what you say. Mormons mean well and their 'sin' is a mistake. Why will God look upon their well-meant mistakes with contempt and send them to hell for it.

Seriously, answer me honestly. It is my understanding that God only sends people to hell (by the way wasn't Hell never mentioned anywhere in the Bible until Revelations, which was added on rather randomly? someone enlighten me on this subject, I heard of it in passing) by Consciously rejecting his love and returning it with hate and spite. Other religions do not consciously reject God! They merely think other thinks are more convincing or are misled. They don't mean to be 'evil' or 'bad' or to spite God, in fact, they hold Christians in high esteem (when select Christians aren't being douches) and respect their faith. Why will God damn them, Alias?

Edited by jillian, 02 January 2006 - 08:08 PM.


#62 jillian

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 08:12 PM

So let's think here. You're basing your argument off of a book (the details of which you don't even elaborate on) which sounds suspiciously like the Da Vinci Code when it comes to reliability. We're basing our argument off of the mouths of Mormon websites, including the President of the Church. Hmmm!

That's not a real question or a valid point. You asked a succession of rhetorical questions and I don't understand where you are trying to get with them, because those are the questions I'm asking you. The only opinions I have heard from the many Christians I have asked is that yes, those people go to hell, good intentions and deeds for mankind be damned (no pun intended).

I edited my post up there to include more

Edited by jillian, 02 January 2006 - 08:14 PM.


#63 Ives

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 08:12 PM

Excuse me? What are these lies being spread about Mormons?!

Mormons believe in Jesus. Are you crazy? They're Jesus fanatics. The Catholics don't hold a torch to Mormon fanatics.

I absolutely despise the Mormon hate that is out there. If you've ever met a Mormon, you'd know it that everything you read about them is a complete and utter lie.

Mormons are the nicest, most generous people I have ever met. They partake in community service more than any other Christian youth group, they routinely give up their salaries to charity, they are extremely nice people...and what's even more, I have met very few haters in that religion. They are extremely tolerant of other people's beliefs.
Alias, do not believe everything you read on the Internet. The Mormons are very nice, and furthermore, God-fearing people. They believe in Jesus, there is no doubt about that.



Thought so. lol I KNEW it. boom headshot, go to the church of latter day saints, good info on mormons. Bah people are people. I just dont like people that get all forcing of their religion unless its in a debate (eg half my school).


And microsoft is a funny thing to compare to :p .

#64 jillian

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 08:17 PM

*opens hands wide* Those are the questions I'm asking you. That's my response, Alias. You say I denounce your God and I give you the facts, so you refer to an ambiguous statement which is supposed to deadlock me? Here's my question, Alias - Am I going to hell? Also, are Mormons? Buddhists? How about indigenous people in Africa or Hindis in isolated villages who, unlike you wish to believe, never hear about Christianity?

from my earlier post which you ahve conveniently ignored

... How many versions of the Christian Bible are there? How many Books have been added and thrown out - mainly becuase they hold most of the same information and are redundant, but that isn't all the reasons.

Your God is unforgiving, I don't care what you say. Mormons mean well and their 'sin' is a mistake. Why will God look upon their well-meant mistakes with contempt and send them to hell for it.

Seriously, answer me honestly. It is my understanding that God only sends people to hell (by the way wasn't Hell never mentioned anywhere in the Bible until Revelations, which was added on rather randomly? someone enlighten me on this subject, I heard of it in passing) by Consciously rejecting his love and returning it with hate and spite. Other religions do not consciously reject God! They merely think other thinks are more convincing or are misled. They don't mean to be 'evil' or 'bad' or to spite God, in fact, they hold Christians in high esteem (when select Christians aren't being douches) and respect their faith. Why will God damn them, Alias?


Edited by jillian, 02 January 2006 - 08:19 PM.


#65 jillian

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 08:27 PM

... No they don't! Think of isolated villages in Africa, Asia, South America, places where they are happy to worship the land around them and simply don't hear about Jesus, bah.

What motivation has God given me? If you dare say yourself, I'll kick you in the shin.

Why can't God appear to us as he appears to have done in the Old Testament, talk with the world and let the world more obviously see his face so as to differenciate Christianity from any other religion in the world, Alias? Now, with the billions of lost people and thousands of relgions and religious sects, we need him more than ever.

Why don't you answer my question because I do not deny him as Lucifer did. I would accept him and worship him did he give me the light to, but he has not any more than Buddha or Zeus or Huitzipoctli (spspsp) ever has. I would accept Him in an instant were he to, so why doesn't he? It is not a breach of free will if he doesn't mislead us and doesn't leave us to doubt. Lucifer had no doubt of God's existence when he, of his own free will, rejected his power and might.

The situations are very different, you have to be able to see that even through your rose-tinted glasses.

Edited by jillian, 02 January 2006 - 08:30 PM.


#66 Guest_Casilla_*

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 08:29 PM

Ahh!

But Hell isn't mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, nor does Jesus talk about it.

WHERE DOES HELL COME FROM?!

And Jillian, I forget where it says this, but it says somewhere in the New Testament that if you have never heard of God or Jesus, then you are presented with the option at death, and if you accept, you go to Heaven, if you die, you do not.

#67 jillian

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 08:31 PM

Aha. I thought as much, but I was talking with a guy about the song John the Revelator by Depeche Mode and he put that in. :p I'm really far more gullible and easy to believe anything than I appear on here.

Edited by jillian, 02 January 2006 - 08:33 PM.


#68 jillian

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 08:39 PM

But that wasn't what I said at all... I was asking... why... then you totally ignored... but no proof... And it...

...

Fine, I'm evil.

I'm going to bed. First I'll pray God smites all the heathens though, especially those damned Mormons and Catholics. :D Cheers.

Edited by jillian, 02 January 2006 - 08:40 PM.


#69 magda11us

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 10:36 PM

Ahh!

But Hell isn't mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, nor does Jesus talk about it.

WHERE DOES HELL COME FROM?!

And Jillian, I forget where it says this, but it says somewhere in the New Testament that if you have never heard of God or Jesus, then you are presented with the option at death, and if you accept, you go to Heaven, if you die, you do not.


There is no hell and no heaven. You simply died you are nothing anymore just bones and dust.

#70 Waser Lave

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 02:47 AM

*cough* 3 pages off-topic... *cough*

Anyway to continue this off-topic discussion:

Alias, would you still believe in God if you hadn't been 'brainwashed'* by your parents and other religious people whilst you were growing up? If you had no contact with any religous teaching, church or bible could you seriously believe in something which makes absolutely no sense? (to me anyway...)

I believe this is the point which Jillian was talking about too, all the indigenous peoples living in the middle of rainforests and the like who havent been touched by anything christian, surely if God was 'built-in' to everyone then you'd think these people would have even heard of him...

To conclude, people believe what they are taught. Would you believe that it would be possible for there to be tiny microscopic creatures floating around in the air if you hadnt been told about it? I think not, and I also think this is the same as believing in a God. It seems stupid for both sides to denounce each other's beliefs when we are both in the same boat just facing different directions, both science and religion require faith but to a different degree.

Personally, until I get solid evidence that there is a God then I won't accept that he exists but neither will I deny his existence outright. I would just love for God to come over to my house, have some tea and discuss the problems of the world but for some reason I doubt it will happen :D

#71 XenoCyde

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 09:36 AM

Durka Durkas + their WMD's

#72 Frizzle

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 01:53 PM

There's something called purgatory where all unbaptised christians and anyone who has not heard the name of God to. It's like the middle between Hell and Heaven.

#73 Guest_Casilla_*

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 02:17 PM

There's something called purgatory where all unbaptised christians and anyone who has not heard the name of God to. It's like the middle between Hell and Heaven.


Yea, but only Catholics believe in Purgatory and Limbo. It isn't technically canon. Some Prostestants believe in it, too, but most don't.

#74 Frizzle

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 02:22 PM

Yea, but only Catholics believe in Purgatory and Limbo. It isn't technically canon. Some Prostestants believe in it, too, but most don't.


Dem Crazy Catholics.

#75 Vegas

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 04:11 PM

gawd day everyone.I just came back from a #$%@# and busy tirin day so my time here will prolly b short

I'm going to bed. First I'll pray God smites all the heathens though, especially those damned Mormons and Catholics. :D Cheers.

ouch jillian...y does everyone hate catholics and mormons.im a catholic and when I go to my catholic church I see nothing that would offend others in what we do.and yes like some people said,mormons are guud folk.one of my previous neighbours were mormon and I felt bad to them for the discipline they had to live in life.they have all these strict rules to live by and I heard one of them was to not get rich.yes I debate the roots and beginnings of their religion but they shudn't b hated.
some later generations of mormons were raised mormon by their parents and accepted their values and beliefs and thats how they grew up to.how can u hate on these people for how they were raised?the way ur parents raised you is unchangeable because thats what they were taught by the people they were taken care of by and loved and it's not their fault they would believe it.its like sayin 2 demented parents teached and raised their child to be a rude,no-respectin,no-morales, kid...could u blame the kid?
SO y do people on other religions hate on each other for what they believe in?thats their faith and they were pratically forced/brain-washed by their parents when they were growin up and believed in it.like f***...I dont look down on any other religion for what they believe in because I respect them and their beliefs.hatin on a different religion makes u racist because u hate them because they are not like u and dont believe in the same thing u do but I bet u dont even understand a tenth of their religion and what good stuff they do.this kinda is like with not-so-long ago where people were racist on how people looked,their colour,their traditions,their beliefs but now people are startin to not be so DAMN ignorant and respect each other.u see with the pope's funeral.even the english-christians/anglicans leaders came to his funeral because they respected in him and the stuff he did and believed in.the pope's funeral was one of the most suprisin things I saw on television because I saw leaders from all different religions come and pay respect to a man that didnt believe in the same thing as them, because they respected him.

all you people should respect other religions other than your own as ur basin ur hate because u think somethin we believe in is different to your idea.stop disrecpectin all other religons

now I HATE the fact that u ALIAS are trashin catholics even though the fact that ur very religion was once catholics but BRANCHED off because a pig-of-a-king HENRY the 8..who im sure u all heard of, wanted divorce and the roman catholic church didnt let him and alas thas how the anglican church was born.ur religion was made on the fact that someone wanted divorce because his many wives couldnt bear him a son and so he had to keep switching and the catholics wudnt let him.and do u know y the catholic papal residence, the Vatican, is in rome?because the romans felt they had to atone for what they did to jesus and let that sacred land to the pope.obviously the romans saw something that God,of the catholics did, to let another faith claim land on their country even though they had very strong beliefs with their God as well but gave respect, more than what your showin.so if u continue to trash other religions then u are provin to everyone that u are on IGNORANT little pig

Yea, but only Catholics believe in Purgatory and Limbo. It isn't technically canon. Some Prostestants believe in it, too, but most don't.

even though I am catholic I don't believe in the fact that if u dont believe in God u will go to a place called hell and burn in fiery flames.that would make the religion look like some kind of Totalitarian government where u follow all the rules or else.I believe every1 will go to sum sort of heaven correspondin to their religion..lol sounds funny but its one of my new ideas.sometimes I wonder y there would b a heaven at all....a place to go after we die...y not just let us live forever? :o I mean yes there are alot of sinful people in the world that dont deserve to live imo but y would God make people that include sinners and let them die and let the good ones go to a sacred place?it would seem like a weedin out process.y not just make everybody without evil in their hearts?yes I am catholic but I like many others catholics and other types of religions,I tend to question God and how he works...sometimes I wonder if there even is a God.like other people have said,ur faith is what will drive u in the end.


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