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#1 Ives

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 09:48 PM

Well I got inspired to write this topic in debates, as I was told today by someone at my old high school "Godless mother CENSOREDers like you go to hell."

Obviously, if there is a god, is this true? false? What is your belief on the issue? Mine currently is :

Obviously, some people think if you go through life and are a good person then you may get into heaven. This may mean in sense of universalism.

But some people argue thats not the point of faith, to have someone go to heaven but didnt even participate and their faith, if say it's right. That's the point of faith no?

I look at this in both ways undestandably as the idea that maybe theres a middle for the good spirited individuals, that may not have followed the right faith, but who really knows which one is right? I dont quite believe everyones going to Zion, but I do believe they shouldnt be burning in hell for being "mislead".

#2 muffinsforgod

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 10:22 PM

I currently do to a Vedanta Center. my belifes are that there is a God and that being is within everything and everything is a part of it..;

I think that we were put here because we are concepts within the consciousness of god that lead to the concept if indiviuality and our attachments to physical things binds us to this world. Once we give them up then we will be able to go back and be one with god. (I.e. like a drop going back to an ocean)

Once this happens to all living things I think that we are going to repeat it again. (so not only will I be rebord but so will the entire cosmos)

I also belive that different cultures view god in ways the appeals to there psyche the best so therfor it is best for them.. (what works for one does not work for all)

I also think that all the "saviors": (Krsna, Buddha, Jesus ect ... are from the Mantainer Aspect of Supreame Consciousness to convey what our real purpose is here on earth..

#3 Lemonblood

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 10:24 PM

I'm atheist, very strongly, I believe that you should, if you belive in god, not "anger" god by being a retard or whatever he or she doesn't like.

#4 muffinsforgod

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 10:32 PM

Given that you are a strong atheist you would probably like the Philosopher Hume. Read about Humes Fork and his feelings on contemplation on God.

#5 RandomNameIgnoreIt

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 10:39 PM

I don't pretend to know. I only try to deduce whether or not certain things are or are not by logical deduction. Anyone that claims to adhere to a belief that leads them to believe things they could not possibly know are mistaken, be it the stoutly religious, or the non-religious.

I'm not sure if there is a God or not, but just because I have no proof there is, I will not deny that there may be. Life is an everlasting quest to figure out these mysteries, and people that latch onto a belief fed to them, or one they learned from rebellion or spite, are missing out on a great learning opportunity.

There is no clear line drawn defining who goes to heaven or hell. Even among members of particular religions there is disagreement. So I'll stick to saying 'I'm not sure' until I work it out. All I know at this point is that if you live a life worthy of going to hell, it's likely that your life will not turn out so well. And in the end, I think you should be more concerned about that, not whether or not you'll have an afterlife.

Edited by BrknPhoenix, 03 February 2006 - 10:39 PM.


#6 RandomNameIgnoreIt

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 10:54 PM

Wouldn't it be better to just at least choose one. In your view, at least you had a better chance on picking the religion that was right instead of just standing back and saying nothing is going to happen when you die.


I didn't say nothing was going to happen, I said I don't know if anything is going to happen. And anyway, I don't think we're even meant to know. What would God appreciate more... A person doing good just so they go to heaven? Or a person doing good not even knowing if there is a heaven, just because they want to?

Children die before they even know what religion is, the mentally handicapped can have difficulty grasping the concept, and some people live in such far off areas that the religion is never brought to them. Logically speaking, an all loving God couldn't hold not knowing something against someone when it was never impossible to know.

So from my viewpoint, I don't believe God, should he exist, would place much weight on whether or not we know exactly what to believe, when there is such a muck of beliefs out there. Every person is unique, willful in different ways, and created in his image, yes?

I think God would appreciate the thinking man who attempts to accurately decipher his wishes more than the stubborn ones who will give up their own will, which he freely gave them, to blindly follow one philosophy or the other. Which is right? It's a guess. I don't think he would want us to guess... Because what's the point in that? Might as well roll a pair of dice to determine who goes to heaven.

#7 Frizzle

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 04:59 AM

Does it hold the answer to the meaning of life? It'd be nice to see what God's view is on it.

I wish I was religious sometimes, to have something to look foward to, but I'm too technical and logical.

#8 Mumei

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 10:20 AM

for an answer to this you would need to say which god exists

for example there are the old greek gods so going to hell could happen just because you pissed one of them off

if it's the god of the jehova witnesses then everyone currently living today is going to hell (as heaven is full up)

if it's the christian god of the time of the first millenium then 99% of us are going to hell because we have all commited at least one of the sins LOL

all monothiestic sects have an aspect of "be good and good will happen after death" and "be bad and bad things..." - it's all about when the book of the sect was written that makes what these good and bad things are

A lot of the religions that date before 1000 ad tend to have some issues about women going to heaven as it was rare for them to consider women worthy of it (obviously there are exceptions).

In other organised religeons where the power of position and influence has been considered more important - certain things like confessional (the ability to wipe your sins) and contributions (where you have to 'buy your way into the church')

my personal opinion is that if any of the more popular gods (that have heaven and hell) really does exist we're skrewed - the whole concept of a god that creates heaven and hell to reward and punish it's creations - means it's at least got a sick sense of humor - it also means that it wants to create one world for growth, and 2 others for stagnation (most people consider heaven as unchanging and hell also) this goes against all I would like to think about how the universe is built

also most of the gods that do have a heaven and hell construct are the ones that consider certain things like covetness a sin - and since 90+% of the western populations see this sin as more of a way of life then it doesn't bode well when judgement day arrives

(remember the last time god wasn't too keen on how his creations were heading - he commited genocide on the most massive scale - by flooding the whole world and only allowing one group to survive)

anyway - rant over LOL

#9 redlion

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 10:48 AM

my personal opinion is that if any of the more popular gods (that have heaven and hell) really does exist we're skrewed - the whole concept of a god that creates heaven and hell to reward and punish it's creations - means it's at least got a sick sense of humor - it also means that it wants to create one world for growth, and 2 others for stagnation (most people consider heaven as unchanging and hell also) this goes against all I would like to think about how the universe is built

That was always my biggest problem with christianity: their afterlife. Even bliss would get boring after a while, you know?

Besides, after the initial shock at meating your creator, wouldn't he just be another character in the story? I mean, he's been silent for the past 1400 years (assuming that Muhammed was his prophet, which christians don't) which kind of implies non-involvement on a massive scale. True, he did commune with his people often around the time of 2000-10 BC, but besides that period, no communication existed. Faith in a silent God is hard to to keep up.

Myself, I'm more inclined to believe in a buddhist sort of approach. Besides the deifying of Buddha (which the buddha himself spoke out against), I'm all for enlightenment and nirvana, as well as reincarnation.

#10 cara

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 10:57 AM

I know alot of people that belive that only people that follow Christianity are going to hevean.I STRONGLY dissagree with that , however. I don't think 'god' or whatever you call him , will condem people to hell because of what they belive in.
I think the good people get rewarded and go to a there hevean and the bad people that go out and beat there kids and rape our children will go to there hell.
-And by 'there' I mean for example my hevean would be a little oasis with my close friends and family.Somebody ealses might be in a snowy wonderland.You creat it and invite people in. (Please don't think I'm crazy. :p )
So good people get to go to a good place and bad people have to go to a place were they will be punished and in a way 'redemed' because they are suffering for what they have done. :whistling:

#11 cara

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 11:03 AM

What I find rather funny is how all these other religions require so much of you in a worldy manner. Meaning, doing worldly deeds and tasks. This is one of the main reasons others despise christianity. Ironic, yes. You simply believe in Jesus, and all that he did. Have faith in Him and act to Him as you would your father and mother. Share his gospel and lead a good life. No rituals, sacrafices, good deeds, etc.

Amazing though.


100% agree.

Wouldn't it be better to just at least choose one. In your view, at least you had a better chance on picking the religion that was right instead of just standing back and saying nothing is going to happen when you die.

Did it ever accur to you that it is possible that there is no 'right' religion? :o
No right religion that we know of today?-Then basically we're all screwed and going to hell in some peoples view.
Maybe , just maybe , all the religions that people today are worshiping are all false beliefs? What if Jesus isn't god?What if (um) there is a god , what if there isn't a god and (Ex.) aliens are so far the most advanced race and the big bang created us?Humans are not allways right.I need to see something to belive it.Not just some priest telling me it's the right way to go.

EDIT:
Oh how I love debating on things like this. :)
Alias , that quote wasn't me pleeding ignorence.It was me saying that I belive that.
You really think that god is just going to sit there and condem everyone that doesn't belive in christianity to hell?
Then our existance is pointless , no?And if god truly wanted us to worship him so , would'nt he tell us?

Edited by xXxBrok3nxXx, 04 February 2006 - 11:07 AM.


#12 RandomNameIgnoreIt

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 11:23 AM

I think all the debate on this topic as to what philosophy is right and whether or not which religion is this or that is proof enough of when I said I do not believe we are intended to know :p I think both the religious and the atheists are incorrect... There is no good evidence to support either of their positions.

#13 redlion

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 11:25 AM

Yea, it's just so hard to believe in him, feel like im going to die sometimes because it's so hard.

It is hard. Have you never doubted your faith? And don't say you haven't, because you have. When something bad happens to you, you doubt that God is watching over you, or whatever, because he didn't protect you from it.

By the way, about God having a sick humour. If you did your research, and actually looked up what you were criticizing you'll know that God didn't create Hell for man to suffer in. Satan/Lucifer was one of the highest angels in heaven (a long time ago), until one day he demanded to be worshiped like the angels do to God. In God's fury of this rebellion, he preceeded to create Hell and cast Lucifer into it where he was to stay for all of eternity. Obviously Lucifer was pissed, and that's how the "devil" came about and how he continues to bring everyone away from God to this day. Obviously if you don't believe in God, then you can't go to heaven because it "doesn't exist", and therefor only have the choice of hell left. God doesn't want his people going to hell, but if it's "too hard" for you, tough luck...

Sata`n, the angel you speak of, was not cast out in that fashion. Sata`n was the Tempter, the Questioner, and basically what we would call the Devil's Advocate (a name in and of itself not acurate). In the story of Job, it was Sata`n that questioned if Job was a faithful servant. Not the devil, but an angel of God, still present in Heaven among the angel's chorus. God gave him permission to do whatever he wanted to Job (besides kill him) and he did. God never cast out this Sata`n, but kept him around. Find a reference as to where Sata`n was cast out.

Lucifer was never an angel... that was another name for an imaginary angel.

Obviously if you don't believe in God, then you can't go to heaven because it "doesn't exist", and therefor only have the choice of hell left.

But I don't believe in hell either.

#14 Mumei

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 11:30 AM

Actually, if you want to look at statistics about 30 - 40 percent of the people currently living in United States are christian. And, you don't goto hell for commiting a sin, you goto hell for not accepting Jesus/God.


That's why I specifically said the god of the 1st millenium - as I'm very sure you are aware, the bible has been re-written many times - re-interprated and re-translated so many times since it was made up.

at that point in time sins were pretty bad things to do, it's only really since the idea that you can absolve yourself from your actions that sins have become less important to your spiritual goal of life with the good guy

like it said in the bibile it's "It's harder for a rich man to get into Heaven high, than it is for a camel to pass through a needle's eye."

All I was saying is that one of the sins I say most of the christian population comit is covetness "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil"

#15 redlion

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 11:37 AM

I am talking about completely denying the faith, not doubting it, that's impossible.

Oh wow, this is a new one. I never knew someone would actually have enough sense to say this. Well, give me a few mins im currently eating breakfeast I'll edit my post and show you the true story. Amazing though, while your waiting, who's in hell then? Your saying God, the almighty loving God, was so sick that he let satan stay in heaven and toture His people? Obviously we are talking about different God's here.

Fine address it when you have time.

And that last line, I was talking about in a christians view, and obviously your not one so you have no room to comment.

But you're addressing only non-christians, so what was the point of the comment?

#16 Mumei

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 11:57 AM

Actually, if you do more research, they have documentation that literally proves that no major points in the Bible have been changed since it was written. I will get you the links, I supplied them in another debate here have to find it.

http://www.carm.org/...ualevidence.htm

Check it out, might want to take a look at the site while your at it, shares some interesting views.

Yes, we sin, it's human to do that, that's why Jesus died on the cross so we could be forgiven, else we would all be going to hell right now.


I'm not wanting to get this away from the origial topic of the conversation - especitally as it wasn't originally aimed to be an anti-christian topic

however alias - your statement can't go without a little comment - saying that the bible hasn't changed totally missed my point
in the 1st millenium the church was how people understood the bible (thru the sermon) as very few people could read - and it was the sermon that guided the way people held their views - and the interpritations of the bible at that time was VERY different from the current interpritations.

#17 Ives

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 11:13 AM

That was always my biggest problem with christianity: their afterlife. Even bliss would get boring after a while, you know?

Besides, after the initial shock at meating your creator, wouldn't he just be another character in the story? I mean, he's been silent for the past 1400 years (assuming that Muhammed was his prophet, which christians don't) which kind of implies non-involvement on a massive scale. True, he did commune with his people often around the time of 2000-10 BC, but besides that period, no communication existed. Faith in a silent God is hard to to keep up.

Myself, I'm more inclined to believe in a buddhist sort of approach. Besides the deifying of Buddha (which the buddha himself spoke out against), I'm all for enlightenment and nirvana, as well as reincarnation.



Yeah, im leaned towards buddhism. Cant agree with reincarnation as its not proven, but nirvana is true. theres a point of utter happieness in your life, thats just a fact.

As well, Alias, here are some points I'd like to provide for Christianity (Im not antichrist or anything, but a couple reasons I'm not the kinda guy that aims for the christian god) :
  • The Judeo-Christian God (and many other Gods) is, by definition, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and all-knowing.
  • For as long as everything has existed, so has S/He.
  • In order to be morally perfect (a requirement of a God deserving worship, in my opinion), this God must not act in such a way that would lead to forseeable immoral conclusions.
  • The Judeo-Christian God created the words that would be written down by man in the Bible (all according to The Bible). If any one part of the Bible is wrong, then any and all of it could be wrong.
  • According to the Bible, God created Satan, an Angel that would eventually become so evil as to take your soul away and have you burn for all eternity. God is all-knowing, and knew before-hand that Satan would eventually make people suffer for all eternity.
  • Therefore, God chose, knowingly, to make people suffer for all eternity for less than an eternity of sinning. Therefore, God is the one who chose to make one suffer for not believing in him.
  • Choosing to make people suffer for all-eternity is not a possible quality or choice of an all-knowing, all-powerful, completely moral God. However, the Bible, apparently written by God through man, asserts that God is omni-potent, all knowing, all-powerful and completely moral God.
  • Therefore, 1 or more parts of the Bible are wrong.
  • If 1 or more parts of the Bible are wrong, and its all supposedly exactly God's word, then how much are we supposed to speculate was lost or transfigured in translation from God to Man, Man 1's language to Man 2's language, etc. We must assume, therefore, that any part of the Bible could be false.
Great religion for some part. But I find it rather hard to believe. I just find it silly people can spend time confirming faith into something like a God.

Anyways, if there is a god, I would like to think he wouldnt go off and stab the agnostic man. After all, agnostics are just curious like a child in ways.

I would also like to think life would be easier if we could work together to get answers right rather then "No, Yaweh is the true god because the bible says so" or "Allah is the true god" or "The hindu gods are the true gods" or "There is no god." Better yet, Nontheism which denys existence itself.


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