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The Dead Sea Scrolls


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#1 Ives

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 07:25 PM

Now I'm not against the idea of Christianity, nor do I wish to make much influence here since that would just be saying "I disagree with Christianity" in a repeated process of variants that are equal to it as well. But I thought I might make a debate on the Dead sea scrolls, which is claimed as reasonable proof to God's existence. I'm not going to get too personal here, so here would be my argument.

Now in the idea of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Books of Chronicles and Kings are evidential in the sense anything can be evidence. Black could be evidence that shadows live or demons rule the world. What I would need in my opinion is valid proof.

So someone may say "Why do you trust scientists, when you haven't done the math with the scientists? Why wont you believe in God when we may tell you about him?." I simple think science has solid real world evidence, which is why quite a few people come into Atheism. People argue this is "Sense Faith which is blinding" which uses logic that only apply to the 5 senses.

So I've rolled in these argumentive theories against the dead sea scrolls in overview :

1. These are just as believable as pink is to pink unicorns
2. They claim scientific evidence is blinding faith, but they have "scientific evidence" themselves (The Dead Sea Scrolls)


Now I'm not trying to anger anyone here or bash the Judeo-Christian God. I apologise if I do. Luckily, people weren't meant to agree all the time.

Discuss (your) opinion on the Dead Sea Scrolls

#2 Sakura

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 07:50 PM

I don't know if it was poor wording or my stupidity, but that post as a whole didn't make much sense...Care elaborating or rewording?

#3 Ives

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 07:55 PM

I don't know if it was poor wording or my stupidity, but that post as a whole didn't make much sense...Care elaborating or rewording?

Ill try to explain the key things in as much sense :
  • Christians claim the Dead sea scrolls is evidence, over evidential faith. However, they rule out science as proof and rather "Blinding Evidential faith"
  • What any old text says cannot lead to existence of a God, only the accuracy of the bible.


#4 Ives

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 08:00 PM

I just want to mention one thing. Why I never believe with athiests and their "sciene". God owns humans, humans created science to try an best understand God's creation. Now, why would I not believe God, and yet understand His creation? Sorry if that made no sense :p

Anyways, the Dead Sea Scrolls main point is not proving God exists, but proving alot of those people who make the VERY common excuse of "well the bible probably got messed up in translation", when the documents found were about 98 percent accurate, no major points missing, just a few grammatical error which doesn't really matter unless your some crazy english professor.

Haha yeah my main argument was to people that considered it a 'holy sign from god'. xD Again, it's just what we believe in the end. Just have as much fun as possible in this short life, and do whats rational. and If I go to hell, I guess Itll just be my fault for not making the right choice. Works like business I guess xD.

#5 Cooliodoc

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 08:43 PM

Coudl it not also be called Blind belief. Just because I read The LOTR series does not make me believe in middle earth. Anyone might have just written those who were half mad.
(not to offend)
but obviously christians have that whole you must have faith to get into heaven theory....but often it is just those people that have been brought up in religious families that have faith....and would god really deem that to be fair>?

#6 Ives

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 08:47 PM

Sense I suppose you hold the side of athesiem, take these questions into mind:

Atheism is an intellectual position. What reasons do you have for holding that position? Your reasons are based upon logic, and/or evidence or lack of it. So, is there any reason/evidence for you holding your position that you defend?

If you say that atheism needs no evidence or reason, then you are holding a position that has no evidence or rational basis? If so, then isn't that simply faith?

If you say that atheism is supported by the lack of evidence for God, then it is only your opinion that there is no evidence. You cannot know all evidence for or against God, therefore you cannot say there is no evidence for God.

If you say that atheism needs no evidence to support it because it is a position about the lack of something, then do you have other positions you hold based upon lack of evidence...like say, screaming blue ants? Do you hold the position that they do not exist or that you lack belief in them, too?

Everything that was brought into existence was caused to exist. Can you have an infinite regression of causes? No, since to get to "now" you'd have to traverse an infinite past. It seems that there must be a single uncaused cause. Why can't that be God?

Digest. :)


Yes, well I guess I'm ignorant then? I like to think logic is behind everything, and wasnt created by something that is "above logic". Like I said, faith is faith.

#7 Cooliodoc

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 08:52 PM

DAmnit Athean, discuss my post, I'm bored.

#8 Ives

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 09:00 PM

Coudl it not also be called Blind belief. Just because I read The LOTR series does not make me believe in middle earth. Anyone might have just written those who were half mad.
(not to offend)
but obviously christians have that whole you must have faith to get into heaven theory....but often it is just those people that have been brought up in religious families that have faith....and would god really deem that to be fair>?



Heaven theory makes sense in ways. Yes, you should participate in the faith (Though I think god is above that in case there is) but if the devil is behind other faiths then it brings up two arguments :
  • Why wouldn't Satan have people join Satanism, and divide it into tons of religions?
  • If the devil is behind it, then it is the devils fault. Not the man who is weak to join other religion from devils influence

A few more:

If the laws of logic are human constructs then how can they be absolute since humans think differently and often contradictorily. If they are produced from human minds, and human minds are mutually contradictory, then how can the constructs be absolute? Therefore, the laws of logic are not human constructs.

The universe exists. Is it eternal or did it have a beginning? It could not be eternal since that would mean that an infinite amount of time had to be crossed to get to the present. But, you cannot cross an infinite amount of time (otherwise it wouldn't be infinite). Therefore, the universe had a beginning. Something cannot bring itself into existence. Therefore, something brought it into existence.

What brought the universe into existence? It would have to be greater than the universe and be a sufficient cause to it. The Bible promotes this sufficient cause as God. What does atheism offer instead of God? If nothing, then atheism is not able to account for our own existence.

The universe cannot be infinitely old or all useable energy would have been lost already (entropy). This has not occurred. Therefore, the universe is not infinitely old.

Sorry, I'm just trying something new, and attacking first :p


It's all good Alias. Theres just one problem. What you are providing is philosophical proof. Obviously, Atheist philosophers do the same, but you are right. Nothing is infinte, but I don't quite understand how God can be infinite.

#9 Ives

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 09:04 PM

That last line, that's like blaming your mom for having you because your a weak child. No one can understands God's logic, it's impossible.

Impossible. Wait, isn't he above logic?

Forget that contradiction though. I understand your point. He has no logic. You cannot comprehend him because he is above logic, as he created logic, but we are trapped in the gates of his rules right?

Satans practically controlling you. So I really don't get the idea there. He's not motherly, thats for sure.

And thats what I dont like. No, you cant even understand a little bit of him, but He exists isnt just my thing =/. Same goes with Hinduism, etc.

#10 Ives

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 09:13 PM

No, no, never EVER think that satan has control of you. How could someone that was eternally damned have such power over you? He only has the power of influence, and to stay strong in our faith to God, and he shall defend us, but if we don't have a good faith to start with, how can we get any further?

Oh, disregard then. :p I was probably thinking of the christian group my friends in.

I had faith, thats the thing. I was not different from you in ways. to me, it seemed impossible God could just not exist. And then something hit me :p. But it's probably a tempt from the devil assuming you are correct, and I had little faith I guess? I didnt read the bible all that often, but I went to church, hung out, and really enjoyed it. I just woke up one morning thinking "How could any of this shit make sense?" (And pardon my language but its what I thought :p)

#11 Ives

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 09:44 PM

I bet if you put as much faith and study into God as you did into science you would be alot happier. Do what I am doing right now, check some of this sites out that have some truly interesting facts that can stop another religion right in it's track. The power of God and His word can be truly amazing if put in simpler/powerful terms ;)


Unfortunately, im one of the most stubborn people youll know. I read those sites. while they were interesting, I didnt quite look at them in awe. God just isnt my belief right now. maybe one day ill get a hit in the head, but not for now. Though I am studying religion in College in september, so bwahaha? Ill see.

#12 Cooliodoc

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 10:10 PM

they say the reason that you should believe the bible is because you either have to believe that jesus was a liar or a madman, and all the hstory books never suggest this.

#13 Vegas

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Posted 08 February 2006 - 02:12 PM

dam I came here hopin 2 have alot of thing 2 say but looks like u guys have said most of the things I cuda said.

though im sometimes in doubt about christianity,alias's arguments sometimes really bring some sense of faith in me.r u gonna be like a preacher/pastor or something when u grow up?

#14 Guest_Casilla_*

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Posted 09 February 2006 - 06:44 PM

I totally did not see this topic.

You guys seem to be missing a huge point, here...

The Dead Sea Scrolls are JEWISH documents. >_>

They are not proof, in the slightest, about the existance or nonexistance of God. They have nothing to do with that. Who is saying such rubbish?

They are merely historical record kept by a community of Hebrew scholars who were trying to figure out which versions of each book is true. Which is why there is that translation issue - there are different versions of the same books from the Torah/Old Testament in the Dead Sea Scrolls - and the question comes about...which is true, and which isn't true? In fact, the Jews in that community were scrawling notes in the margins of their scrolls, because THEY were trying to figure it out. Haha.

I don't know where you hear these things, Athean, but that is absolutely ridiculous. It has nothing to do with the proof of the existance of God, nor the blasphemy of science. The Dead Sea community certainly never wrote anything about that. It was just a bunch of Hebrews out in the desert studying old legends. <_<

Edited by Casilla, 09 February 2006 - 06:45 PM.


#15 Ives

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Posted 09 February 2006 - 06:48 PM

I totally did not see this topic.

You guys seem to be missing a huge point, here...

The Dead Sea Scrolls are JEWISH documents. >_>

They are not proof, in the slightest, about the existance or nonexistance of God. They have nothing to do with that. Who is saying such rubbish?

They are merely historical record kept by a community of Hebrew scholars who were trying to figure out which versions of each book is true. Which is why there is that translation issue - there are different versions of the same books from the Torah/Old Testament in the Dead Sea Scrolls - and the question comes about...which is true, and which isn't true? In fact, the Jews in that community were scrawling notes in the margins of their scrolls, because THEY were trying to figure it out. Haha.

I don't know where you hear these things, Athean, but that is absolutely ridiculous. It has nothing to do with the proof of the existance of God, nor the blasphemy of science. The Dead Sea community certainly never wrote anything about that. It was just a bunch of Hebrews out in the desert studying old legends. <_<


Certain people have claimed they have to do with the existence of god. <_<

#16 Guest_Casilla_*

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Posted 09 February 2006 - 06:49 PM

Certain people have claimed they have to do with the existence of god. <_<

They're idiots! Those scrolls have absolutely nothing to do with science or the existance of God. <scowl> They're historical record and conjecture on the books of the Hebrew Bible, nothing more.

#17 Ives

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Posted 09 February 2006 - 06:50 PM

They're idiots! Those scrolls have absolutely nothing to do with science or the existance of God. <scowl> They're historical record and conjecture on the books of the Hebrew Bible, nothing more.

But it does show the Hebrew bible is very accurate :).

#18 Guest_Casilla_*

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Posted 09 February 2006 - 07:19 PM

But it does show the Hebrew bible is very accurate :).

No, it shows the opposite. The ancient Hebrew scholars couldn't decide which versions of each story were true - each tribe kinda had its own story, you know? Eventually, just like the Christians decided their official story at Nicaea, as did the Jews eventually mandate which story was true and which was false. ;)

#19 Ives

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Posted 09 February 2006 - 07:26 PM

No, it shows the opposite. The ancient Hebrew scholars couldn't decide which versions of each story were true - each tribe kinda had its own story, you know? Eventually, just like the Christians decided their official story at Nicaea, as did the Jews eventually mandate which story was true and which was false. ;)


Ah. Sorry I don't know too much, but I find anyone that considers it proof of god to be idiotic.


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