241 replies to this topic

[snickpop]

Yes I agree that that's being close minded. So does that mean overall i'm a close minded person? No. Everyone is close minded on certain subjects, it's not exactly a bad thing.

I agree that everyone probably is cosed minded on some level. But it is exactly a bad thing when it hurts other people. It's pretty damn bad for the kid you tease.

Okay, yea it's bigotry. If you havn't noticed yet I really don't care what you label it, it's one of the few bad things I have a problem with, I don't know why your debating over it.

Bigotry can be a very, very bad thing. But at least knowing that you have a problem is the first step to solving it. And now I'm bored. And it's true that we won't get anywhere with the debate. So unless something majorly interesting comes up that I just have to reply to then I'll end it here and let you have the last word.

[Ives]

I wouldn't go so far to call Alias a closed minded bigot. Obviously hes strong in his beliefs, and what his beliefs say is right and wrong. But he doesn't go so far as to alienate everyone, take all of the bible literally, and not live a normal life. I'd be suprised if he handed out sheets to classmates saying "REPENT TO YOUR LORD," or not diss someone because "Love thy Neighbor" is in the bible. I'm sure hes open about his faith, but this is just the debate forum. Whos saying what doesn't matter. It's what they said.

Of course, I'll sometimes think some things he say to be very silly and akward, but that's just me.

Edited by Reeshu, 13 May 2006 - 02:35 PM.

[Ives]

That's the negative about living in california educated schools. Education is gold over here.

Not saying something uneducated, but rather just one of your beliefs.

[jillian]

Alias, when you say there is an absolute truth, you basically mean everyone should conform to what you're saying, and that's the point of christianity being a religion, blah blah blah

Did I tell you that after careful consideration and analysis of both sides of my debate with you a while back, I found that you like, totally cemented my non-religiousness. Like, before I wasn't FOR organized religion, but you totally made me against organized religion. And don't say you're not closed-minded. That's the point of you having beliefs - they mean you're closed-minded. When you debate, you spew off on your beliefs and outright deny the other person on EVERY POINT, and if you can't deny them, you ignore them, which is the exact definition of closed-minded. In a regular debate, people concede points, exchange ideas and discuss opinions to persuade civilly and reach a consensus... not just say I AM SO FRIGGING RIGHT BECAUSE YOU'RE WRONG, LOOK AT THIS VERY MINUTE DETAIL FROM YOUR PAGE-LONG POST, IT'S WRONG SO YOU'RE WRONG I'M RIGHT"

[snickpop]

What if someone personally thought it was not natural?

Well what is natural? There was a time when it was natural that women weren't allowed to vote. That black people were slaves. In some cultures it's natural that women have to cover their faces when they go outside. Is it natural for humans to eat meat? And so on. If you think homosexuality is not natural then that's your belief. I think you're wrong, but you have a right to your opinion. The problem is if you persecute others because of your/their beliefs. If you deny them their right to get married. Then you're forcing your beliefs on them. I would never want to get married to another man but that doesn't mean I want it to be illegal. Isn't that what open minded means? Even though you think it's not natural you should be open minded to their beliefs. Their beliefs don't hurt you in any way. If you think they'll go to hell because they sin, well it's their choice. Like someone else said, hate the sin but love the sinner.

Guess i couldn't stay away

[Cam]

Its their choice.

[Ives]

Don't understand how its unnatural. Meth addiction. Not natural. Genocide. Not natural. Having preference of the male body over the female (or visa versa). Uhhh, thats probably one of the most natural things: To act upon preference. Not that its good by certain definition, but certainly natural for a human.

[amyjia]

Then how come this is just now becoming legal? Why is there such a huge fight over something that is "most natural" ?

Many people fear what they don't understand. People fear change. When your wanting to CHANGE laws on a subject that people DON'T UNDERSTAND, then yes there is going to be fights and people not agreeing.

Also, implying that it is less right because it has taken so long to become legal isn't really a good argument. Through history, when people know better, they do better. This is part of people being open to enlightenment and change. The same argument you are using has been used through history by people who wanted to keep the status quo:

Slavery:

"I have had slaves in my family for generations. I need them to tend to my fields. If slavery is so bad, why has it been legal for it to go on for so long?"

Segregation:

"I didn't go to school with other races and neither did m parents, nor my parents' parents. Everything has been going just fine for me. We have our places we go and they have there's. This is how it has been for years. Why now does it need to change?"

Women voting:

"A woman having the right to vote? Ha! A woman can barely make day to day decisions and you want her to have a right to choose who will be in office? There's a reason why women have not been allowed to vote up until now, and I would suggest you remember that."

In all three cases, there were huge disagreements and fights over these issues. Slavery, segregation and denying women the right to vote was natural until people stood up and said it wasn't.Even many churches were for segregation and denying women suffrage. Now the exact opposite of those things are excepted and thought to be "natural". Homosexual marriages and in general the way homosexuals are viewed and treated is progressing in this way. You can already see it through the media. There was a time when homosexuals or "homosexual behavior" would have never been shown on tv(especially not showing them in a good light). Now there are MANY shows centered around homosexuals which don't demonize them at all.

As times goes by and we progress as a society, we must stay open to change, new ideas, and ways of thought.Once more I will say, as the old saying goes "When you know better, you do better".

[amyjia]

With that argument you can practically legalize anything you want. "Drugs have been illegal years, but we need to CHANGE because it's good for us so it should be legal now".

Actually, there are good drugs out there. If you are talking about illegal drugs, that example doesn't apply because things like cocaine and Heroine are known to be hazardous to your health unlike abolishing slavery, intergration, allowing women to vote, and allowing homosexuals to marry.

You say we must be "open to new ideas". That's wonderful, but it's not an excuse to legalize wrong. Your argument is good, but stupid.

Like I said, there was a time when people thought allowing women to vote was wrong. There was a time when people thought people of different races going to the same school was wrong. I will say once more, as we progress as a society, we must be open to new ideas.

Please reframe from calling any of my arguments stupid. I address you in a respectful way and I expect the same from you.

[K�l]

I totally agree with gay marriages... I totally want to get married to my girlfriend one day, but you have to see why other people are against it.

I think that you guys have some good arguments, and I'm not gonna say any of it again.

You say we must be "open to new ideas". That's wonderful, but it's not an excuse to legalize wrong. Your argument is good, but stupid.

Who are you to say what is right and wrong? I think its wrong that people are so closed minded about things like this

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sorry for throwing my 5 cents in...

[Frizzle]

Who are you to say what is right and wrong? I think its wrong that people are so closed minded about things like this.

It his personal and religious beliefs so of course he can say it's wrong, since it's a debate and allowing different opinions is what makes a debate good.

And it isn't close minded since Alias is very religious and just takes his religious seriously that's all.

Would you call a muslim obessive because he prayed five times a day?

Of course Alias effects other people more, but why would he choose bits of his religion to follow and other bits not to?

[RandomNameIgnoreIt]

If religion is the only way something can be shown to be wrong, then it is right. Religion is not the be-all end-all of anything. Anything. Religion is a guide, and to take it at its strict word for everything is to deny your own free will that God gave you.

[RandomNameIgnoreIt]

Well i'm glad you have that view. My view comes from the Bible. The Bible specifically states that God's word is law. And anyone who is to break the law must ask for forgiveness. It is in sense a guide, but it doesn't mean you go and excuse things just to benefiet yourself, because that's down right selfishness. And amazingly, there are alot of non-christian "high status" people who believe that the ways of the United States should closely follow religion, expecially Christianity. I read in it some article the other day, surprised me.

The words in the bible are the words of man, from their interpretation of what God has said to them. To know what God knows and do what God wants done is to look within yourself, not within the pages of an ancient text.

I think God would be disappointed knowing that humanity cannot be just and good without a book strictly guiding them to do so :\

edit: I don't mean to offend you, I'm just saying that strictly taking the bible as all law without any personal reflection will take you down a bad road. One would have to wonder if we were just meant to read and obey that book, why it then says God is in us all, and why we have free will at all... If God truly is in us all, and all around us, the words in the pages are mere fragments of a time long past, and the real word of law remains to be spoken through those of the proper spirit that can find it within themselves.

Edited by BrknPhoenix, 15 May 2006 - 04:51 PM.

[RandomNameIgnoreIt]

So your saying that God allowed men to ruin what his true word was? In other words, God was basically lieing to us. Is that possible for a perfect being to do? I don't think so.

With all that men have ruined in history, is it that hard to believe they ruined that too? And I think ruined is a strong word... Influenced.

Influenced so long ago, nonetheless. I find it hard to believe God cannot evolve along with the rest of time and his creations, stuck to something he said 2000 years ago to a world with a completely different face than the one we are in today.

[RandomNameIgnoreIt]

Why would God, the creator of man, evolve to what man has created? Man, a sinful creature. Why would a perfect being follow a sinful creature? What God said was law, and it's not to change just because man has corrupted the world. My point still stands. Do you believe that God would allow the Bible to be corrupted?

He allowed man to be corrupted, and he made us both.

[Tetiel]

But if he let man corrupt his word, he is basically lieing to us. And therefor, in this world there is no real truth. Do you believe God to be so evil to leave us without a real truth? Do you think he is capable of lieing? Of letting His perfect words, being corrupted?

Actually.. if you think about it... take the story of Adam and Eve. God had said "if you eat from this tree surely you will die" paraphrasing of course since I am a bit too lazy to go upstairs and get my bible Buuuuuuut... when they ate it they did not die, but instead they lived. One could call that mercy, but one could call it a lie as well.

[RandomNameIgnoreIt]

But if he let man corrupt his word, he is basically lieing to us. And therefor, in this world there is no real truth. Do you believe God to be so evil to leave us without a real truth? Do you think he is capable of lieing? Of letting His perfect words, being corrupted?

You're making too many assumptions here.... Firstly, God can lie to us, because he's God, he can do whatever he wants. I'm sure you agree with that.

Second, a lie from God does not mean there is no truth. That is not possible, because there is always truth. There is a way things are, and God would know the way things are.

Third, despite all that, man corrupting his words does not mean he lied. It means man misinterpreted and misinformed.

Fourth, you keep saying he is perfect, yet we are flawed, yet he created us. If he can do that, what makes you think he is A) incapable of lies, or B) incapable of having his words manipulated by his own imperfect creation, when we see man manipulate his word on a daily basis in the form of thousands of religions.

You refer to a real truth, but where is the one truth? As we are bombarded by all these religions, many of which share a common heritage (for example Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) which one is the real truth?

If God's word cannot be made flawed by man, then how do all these other religious texts exist, preaching different words? Why would God allow so many texts to exist with so many contridictions?

There's only one answer.

The answer is in you, not a book. The one truth is that we were made with a free will with which to perceive the world around us, so take advantage of it and seek the real truth on your own... Don't seek it from a book. This applies to people of all nations and all religions.... Do not let your heart be swayed, because yes, the truth is inside of you. You just have to find it.

[RandomNameIgnoreIt]

No, I don't agree that God can lie to us. Something perfect cannot sin, and lieing is a sin.

So if there is a truth, where is it? Everything christianity is based on comes from the Bible, and if it's corrupt, then there is no God, and no truth to a christian.

God created us perfect, man corrupted himself.

The real truth is the Bible. My church reads from the Bible. That's all we do. We have no standards, all our teachings come from the New Testament.

If man were have not to corrupt himself, there would be no other religions. Why would satan have just on religion that sways people from the truth, when he can have hundreds?

If the truth were to be inside you, there would never be a truth because so many people would have different views on what they see the truth to be.

If that's where you're coming from.... What was the real truth the millenia before the birth of Jesus Christ came about, and before the bible was written? If everything you believe is that book, then there was no real truth then because the book didn't exist?

[Ives]

The rules of man don't apply to the rules of God.

Probably the reason for motivation into becoming an atheist / agnostic is what brkn said. It's not whats correct, or whats proven. Its what you think is right. Theres no real connection to right or wrong. Dreams don't provide the source of truth. Miracles don't prove that someone up there fixed a crippled kid. Alcoholics don't become alcoholics because they sin. People aren't perfect. It's not because they corrupted themself. It's all in the mind, what you think is rational, and what you think seems to be proof.

The point of my argument is that people need to move on. Unlike killing/raping/racism, homosexuality doesn't result in people flying around, shooting stars, and depleting the little innocence of man. Gay men and Lesbians are just trying to find what they think is love in a fashion of the same sex. How many people are gonna be scared for life about it? Is causing disgust on the occasion or disagreeance so horrible that Americas original idea is destroyed? Do you think some kid with two dads can't fucking handle the lack of a mom? Times have changed, brother. It's no longer the dark ages.

[Tetiel]

Actually.. if you think about it... take the story of Adam and Eve. God had said "if you eat from this tree surely you will die" paraphrasing of course since I am a bit too lazy to go upstairs and get my bible Buuuuuuut... when they ate it they did not die, but instead they lived. One could call that mercy, but one could call it a lie as well.

Maybe you didn't see this Alias...

[RandomNameIgnoreIt]

The real truth was God himself. Before the Bible was published, God normally visted people such as Moses. That's where all the prophets came from. You should read Ezekiel, good example of how God used him to tell the rebellious nation of Iserael that what they were doing was wrong. Don't forget that the world was started with Adam and Eve, and obviously they knew God was real. Man has known God ever since our creation.

That contradicts the fact that you say you now get everything out of the book alone. The book was written long ago, and you treat it as though it is the only truth. And as you say God is the truth, then that means that book is the only truth he has left us for the past 2000 years or so. So no, not quite since our creation... Since that book, it seems, in your eyes.

I'm trying to say that God is the truth and he is within us, but you say the book supercedes that... but then you say God is the real truth. I'm not really sure where you're coming from with that...

That's out of context. They were perfect beings, and then they sinned, which God called "dieing". They became corrupt, or "dead".

You said God was perfect. You say they are perfect. You said God can't sin, you said they can. You lack consistency.

[Tetiel]

That's out of context. They were perfect beings, and then they sinned, which God called "dieing". They became corrupt, or "dead".

Actually no it's not out of context. And did God say that's what he meant? He meant DEAD.

Genesis 2:16-17

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Genesis 3:4-5

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

There it is obvious by the snake that he meant that they would ACTUALLY DIE, not just be sinful.

[RandomNameIgnoreIt]

End of story,

Don't ever try and convert anyone, because you know exactly the wrong things to say to get people to hate your position.