30 replies to this topic

[Darkness]

I was reading a topic and decided to start a debate about the universe. What do you think is beyond it? Do you think anything is beyond it? Or do you tihnk it's forever expanding.

As for myself, I'm not quite sure. I don't know if it's forever expanding, obviously, but I wouldn't doubt it is. But what space is it filling up? I don't know, it just baffles me, so I wanted to hear your opinions Discuss away.

[Hydrogen]

Well...this isnt really a debate as astronomers already know that it is forever expanding . The area it is expanding into is nothing. Its a little hard to grasp but think of it like this:



The surface of that sphere is the universe. Where it is expanding into is the contents of that box.

[Darkness]

So if the box explains what contains the nothing, then what is outside the box. Come on, think outside the box Then also, what happens if the universe hits the inside of this box. THe box would then have to expand too I guess.

[Hydrogen]

Darkness, on Jun 22 2006, 11:45 PM, said:

So if the box explains what contains the nothing, then what is outside the box. Come on, think outside the box Then also, what happens if the universe hits the inside of this box. THe box would then have to expand too I guess.

It does i suppose . Its just a way to explain it . But this isnt a debate

[Cataliste]

It is still VERY ahrd for the human mind to grap nothingness Hydrogen.

As there is never nothingness nea rus. Even the air is filled. Even Vacuum chamber have thing sin them.

But yeah. It is pretty much expanding into "nothing", and that nothing is infinately big <kinda oxymoronish, nothing is infinite xD>.

Until it reaches it limit (it loses the momentum from the big bang) then gravity and electromagnetism will pull it all back to the middle.

THEN BOOM! We all die. in like 60 trillion years. xD

The box does not actually exist....


And everyhting will not mov ein reverse Steven!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hydrogen]

Cataliste, on Jun 22 2006, 11:46 PM, said:

Until it reaches it limit (it loses the momentum from the big bang) then gravity and electromagnetism will pull it all back to the middle.

THEN BOOM! We all die. in like 60 trillion years. xD

This is a theory held by a few older astronomers. Now-a-days people generally dont believe this as new research has proved that the universe is forever expanding and not due to the momentum of the big bang. The farther planets and stars are from each other, the faster they move away from each other. This fact disproves the notion that it is due to the momentum of the big bang that we are expanding.

The universe is forever expanding .

[sonic]

Quote

Well thats according to normal physics. At the beggining and ending of space time, all known laws of physics break down. Thats why einstins theory of relativity cannot be 100% correct. Oh and the "big crunch" is a well respected scientific thoery, and also widly believed amoung many astrophysicists.

Infact, IT WILL HAPPEN if our calculations of the amount of mass in the universe is wrong. We can account for like .7% of the critical point, but due to what we know about "dark matter" we estimate there is 11% of the critical mass needed to cause the slowing of expansion and to ultimatly cause the "big crunch". But there could be much more matter in the universe than what we know about.

oh and light is a paradox. or sorts.
If you stand on a tower you age faster than someone on the ground because the force of gravity warps and slows down time. Becuase space-time is not absolute, its relative. lol e=mc2 says that has you increase speed you increase mass. Acceleration works the same as the force of Gravity. So if you go the speed of light or close (if you went the speed of light your energy would be infinite and thats impossible) then time would slow down for you. Actually if you went faster than light then that would classify as "time Travel" back into the past. Well thats if General theory of relativity is correct.

That is what I posted early in another topic.

Anyway, there are many thoeries to what lies beyond the universe. Most simply say. Nothing. There cannont be anything without space-time.

Edited by Sonic, 22 June 2006 - 11:00 PM.

[Cataliste]

You said it yourself Sonic

At the end of pace time the laws of physics break down. If the laws of physics break down, then there can infact be nothing.


I liek Sonics style.

[sonic]

Hydrogen, on Jun 22 2006, 10:49 PM, said:

This is a theory held by a few older astronomers.

Please. Stop saying astronamers. They dont know shit. ITs physists. Astronamers observe. thats it.

Now not to be rude, but stop with what i call "discovery channel phsyics". Honestly, just to give you some more knowlege, you are slightly correct. Evedence at this point in time show that the expansion is indeed moving faster. This proves nothing.

Please, anyone who is interested in any of this read "A brief history of time" or the revised "A briefer history of time". It will help you to grasp the true elements of the univerese, and its not heavy with a bunch of math.

Or for more on the theory of realtivity, without to much deep water, read "five equations that changed the world" it has a good section on it.

Oh and stay away from Quantam mechanics for now. IT will just mess you up.

[Hydrogen]

If it really bothers you so much, I'll use astrophysicists...

I guess it has been a while since i took those astronomy classes in university . Take it away Sonic .

[sonic]

Cataliste, on Jun 22 2006, 10:59 PM, said:

You said it yourself Sonic

At the end of pace time the laws of physics break down. If the laws of physics break down, then there can infact be nothing.
I liek Sonics style.

Well the laws of known Physics. Thats why we need to tie Quantam Mechanics and General theory of relativity together for the Unifed thoery of everything.
I think it would be called, The quantam theory of Gravity. Has a nice ring.

With this, we could predict ANYTHING in the universe. Wel actually we couldnt. The calculations would be intirely to big to predict lets say human behavior, but the beggining and end, (if there is one) is in our relm of prediction.

Which brings us to a big problem. If a Quantam Theory of GRavity is possible, then there is not such thing as free will.

Oh and here is just some random cool thing that makes your head hurt. IF everything in the universe increased 3000000000x then we would not know and there would be absolutly no way to tell. To even say it increased in size would be usless and incorrect because size is reltive.

[Cataliste]

Maybe the expansion is increasing because of the rotations of planets (and their cores) and all the mass on them (generating electromagnetism) could be pushing the objects away from each other.

{/n00bness]

Just my humble theory on the thing. Before you start screaming a tme I ahve not done any research into it. jsut something I been tossing around my mind.

[sonic]

Cataliste, on Jun 22 2006, 11:08 PM, said:

Maybe the expansion is increasing because of the rotations of planets (and their cores) and all the mass on them (generating electromagnetism) could be pushing the objects away from each other.

{/n00bness]

Just my humble theory on the thing. Before you start screaming a tme I ahve not done any research into it. jsut something I been tossing around my mind.

Cataliste. I love you. lol

Naw it does make sense. Well its like my theory me and you disscused. IT has alot of loop holes, but i think none of us are strong enough mathmatically to pull off any structurly sound thoerys.

Hydrogen, on Jun 22 2006, 11:02 PM, said:

If it really bothers you so much, I'll use astrophysicists...

I guess it has been a while since i took those astronomy classes in university . Take it away Sonic .

Lol its all good. You got the basics, and im definitly NOT much farther along than you lol. All my knowledge is from reading. I have taken no physics classes.

Sorry if i was a dick. Your an awsome dude. Hydro

Edited by Sonic, 22 June 2006 - 11:35 PM.

[Cataliste]

Don't sell me short. I am banging at math.

I can do massive calculation easily in my head. Just kinda got a problem with MAKING equations myself. I cna wrap my mind around wha tneeds to happen, jsut cna't express it easily on paper.

Get on MSN, we shall discuss this further.

[Evan]

Darkness, on Jun 22 2006, 10:28 PM, said:

I was reading a topic and decided to start a debate about the universe. What do you think is beyond it? Do you think anything is beyond it? Or do you tihnk it's forever expanding.

As for myself, I'm not quite sure. I don't know if it's forever expanding, obviously, but I wouldn't doubt it is. But what space is it filling up? I don't know, it just baffles me, so I wanted to hear your opinions Discuss away.

I also think about the big bang this way. How did this (universe) come from...nothing?

[sonic]

Cataliste, on Jun 23 2006, 12:26 AM, said:

Don't sell me short. I am banging at math.

I can do massive calculation easily in my head. Just kinda got a problem with MAKING equations myself. I cna wrap my mind around wha tneeds to happen, jsut cna't express it easily on paper.

Get on MSN, we shall discuss this further.

I would NEVER want to sell you short!
Anyway. AWsome. Im pretty good. Im taking Calculus classes a the local college. im an incoming junior in highschool.

Yea, i will log in lol. But you know the depth of math it takes to calculate lets say the 3 laws of motion according to newton. Thats some hard shit.

lol.

Evan, on Jun 23 2006, 12:29 AM, said:

I also think about the big bang this way. How did this (universe) come from...nothing?

Thats a debate science has had for a long time. Many believe we should leave it up to Religion, or metaphysics.

Its a crazy thought, but if your an einstine kind of guy Infinite is not a possiblilty for you. If you learn more twords the deep water that is Quantam Mechanics, then there is no nothing, or something.lol

[Bryan]

Calculus was fun =) I took it and precalc last year as a junior =P It's easy though, I just wish I'd get some challenging math once in a while, not something I can just stare at and learn instantly =P

But the whole idea of the Universe's Expansion, it will vary from individual, I myself learn from experience, and do not believe in anything unless I myself can prove it =P So, I can't really give an accurate description of what I think happens, only to speculate that it expands and never ceases. Like I said, I can't prove that pie has an ending point, so it becomes "infinite" in my eyes, much like the universe. Imagine if our universe was just a black hole in another? Funnn


Science makes you use your brain <3

[Hydrogen]

Sonic, on Jun 22 2006, 11:30 PM, said:

Yea, i will log in lol. But you know the depth of math it takes to calculate lets say the 3 laws of motion according to newton. Thats some hard shit.

• An object at rest tends to stay at rest and an object in motion tends to stay in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.
  
• Force = Mass * Acceleration
  
• An object at rest has zero velocity - and (in the absence of an unbalanced force) will remain with a zero velocity; it will not change its state of motion (i.e., velocity). An object in motion with a velocity of 2 m/s, East will (in the absence of an unbalanced force) remain in motion with a velocity of 2 m/s, East; it will not change its state of motion (i.e., velocity). Objects resist changes in their velocity.

Doesn't seem so bad to me... Espicially since we had to derive these equations in physics anyway and discuss their validities.

[sonic]

Hydrogen, on Jun 23 2006, 12:37 AM, said:

• An object at rest tends to stay at rest and an object in motion tends to stay in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.
  
• Force = Mass * Acceleration
  
• An object at rest has zero velocity - and (in the absence of an unbalanced force) will remain with a zero velocity; it will not change its state of motion (i.e., velocity). An object in motion with a velocity of 2 m/s, East will (in the absence of an unbalanced force) remain in motion with a velocity of 2 m/s, East; it will not change its state of motion (i.e., velocity). Objects resist changes in their velocity.

Doesn't seem so bad to me... Espicially since we had to derive these equations in physics anyway and discuss their validities.

Thats not the math behind it lol. I will look it up.

[Cataliste]

He means it is very difficult amthmatically to explain WHY these things do that....

DUH HYDROGEN! =P

[Hydrogen]

Cataliste, on Jun 22 2006, 11:41 PM, said:

He means it is very difficult amthmatically to explain WHY these things do that....

DUH HYDROGEN! =P

Lol...I think I'll just stick to my field...I'll see you guys in the programming section .

[sonic]

Dirty Filipino, on Jun 23 2006, 12:37 AM, said:

Calculus was fun =) I took it and precalc last year as a junior =P It's easy though, I just wish I'd get some challenging math once in a while, not something I can just stare at and learn instantly =P

But the whole idea of the Universe's Expansion, it will vary from individual, I myself learn from experience, and do not believe in anything unless I myself can prove it =P So, I can't really give an accurate description of what I think happens, only to speculate that it expands and never ceases. Like I said, I can't prove that pie has an ending point, so it becomes "infinite" in my eyes, much like the universe. Imagine if our universe was just a black hole in another? Funnn
Science makes you use your brain <3

Well the subject of weither the universe is infinite in size is not a question. Well actually not directly, Superstrings get confusing.

The question is will the universe continue to expand forever?.

Thats is something we can only solve with the Unified theory of everything. A meeting point between Quantam Mechanics and general Relativity.

But to shed some light, the universe is not a sphere. ITs almost flat. like a galaxie, but the difference is there is no boundry. Its like walking on the earth. But its not a sphere. ITs flat-ish. Time-space is warped.



Oh and to touch on the pie thing. That is hitting at the core of the superstring theory.

Edited by Sonic, 22 June 2006 - 11:51 PM.

[Hydrogen]

I know about this actually . I think what sonic means is that the curvature of the universe is flat...whereas the universe itself is many dimensions and not just 2 (flat)

[sonic]

Hydrogen, on Jun 23 2006, 12:48 AM, said:

I know about this actually . I think what sonic means is that the curvature of the universe is flat...whereas the universe itself is many dimensions and not just 2 (flat)

YES! Your right.
The popular thoery is that there is 4 dimension.
Another is that there is 11.
Others say infinte.

[Bryan]

Yeah, Superstrings is fun. Quantum Mechanics is interesting, I guess I haven't delved as deep into it yet, because I haven't had time =P