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Science or Religion?


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#26 Hydrogen

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 07:38 PM

QUOTE(xėnon @ Aug 30 2006, 07:34 PM) View Post

This is cool, some scientists believe that the all the energy of the big bang was done by God who has infinite power. smile.gif I think I saw it on wiki I'll get a better source.
Sounds cool smile.gif


#27 Melchoire

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 07:41 PM

QUOTE(Athean @ Aug 29 2006, 02:31 PM) View Post

You can't argue with the Big Bang theory. The only argument you can really suggest is how the matter got there, which alone (along with other reasons) justifies my belief that there is a spiritual being or an intelligent being pulling the strings. Do I have science to vefiy this? No. But does it mean I'm totally stupid? Nah. The bible, Qur'an, and Torah ALL have a possibility of the big bang as well, though only the Qur'an specifically says that the big bang happened without having to intepret it.

Of course, if scientists prove atheism right, then I will gladly accept their scientific logic behind it. But I'm not going to deny the possibility or my belief in the existence of a higher power or intelligent creator until that day comes forth.

I was really amazed when I read the verse that suggested the big bang, really cool biggrin.gif

Edited by xėnon, 30 August 2006 - 07:42 PM.


#28 xZel

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 08:22 PM

QUOTE(xėnon @ Aug 30 2006, 11:34 PM) View Post

This is cool, some scientists believe that the all the energy of the big bang was done by God who has infinite power. smile.gif I think I saw it on wiki I'll get a better source.

I thought that was what natural selection was... blink.gif And then evolution happened though non-godly means.

#29 Hawk

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 08:35 PM

QUOTE(xZel @ Aug 30 2006, 11:22 PM) View Post

I thought that was what natural selection was... blink.gif And then evolution happened though non-godly means.

xD

Natural selection means like, say ten fish are born, five are darker color and blends in better with the environment, the other five are brighter. The brighter ones will be killed by predators while the others will survive longer and reproduce more, therefore there are more darker colored fishies.

Ill quote wiki on this cause my response may be hard to understand.

QUOTE
Natural selection is the process by which individual organisms with favorable traits are more likely to survive and reproduce than those with unfavorable traits. Natural selection works on the whole individual, but only the heritable component of a trait will be passed on to the offspring, with the result that favorable, heritable traits become more common in the next generation. Given enough time, this passive process can result in adaptations


#30 Alex

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 08:36 PM

QUOTE(xZel @ Aug 30 2006, 08:22 PM) View Post

I thought that was what natural selection was... blink.gif And then evolution happened though non-godly means.

Natural selection, evolution are totaly separate from the big bang...

#31 nox

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 07:19 AM

science

orgnaized religion is the downfall of society.

#32 Hawk

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 07:25 AM

QUOTE(speaker @ Aug 31 2006, 09:19 AM) View Post

orgnaized religion is the downfall of society.

How is it the downfall of society? A one liner isnt exactly good in debating. unsure.gif

#33 Guest_Casilla_*

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 11:15 AM

QUOTE(speaker @ Aug 31 2006, 07:19 AM) View Post

science

orgnaized religion is the downfall of society.

Considering organized religion built civilization, that's quite a bit of a turnabout!

Organized religion can (but doesn't always) hinder a great many things (science, human rights, etc), but it certainly doesn't destroy society.

Edited by Casilla, 31 August 2006 - 11:15 AM.


#34 nox

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 11:41 AM

Really. What does religion offer besides hate crimes, and pedophile priests?

Then think about what it harms/prevents.

- It discriminates homosexuals.
- It is one of the main causes of the U.S war.
- Without abortion, even more kids will be without homes.
- The whole seperation between church&state.
Widespread popular movies like The Passion of the Christ which support anti-semetic views. Now more than ever, all you hear is "*^!#^* jews, they killed Jesus". It's funny when a movie like The DaVinci Code comes out, there are riots&protests when the "almighty ruler Jesus" is questioned for possibly having relatives.

Prove that there is a god. You can't.
Keep that shit out of everyone else's life.

Add on to the list if you like, I gotta go do my 2nd job advancement for my new mage. ohmy.gif

#35 Melchoire

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 11:57 AM

QUOTE(xZel @ Aug 30 2006, 09:22 PM) View Post

I thought that was what natural selection was... blink.gif And then evolution happened though non-godly means.

Thats a misconception that really ruins the theory of evolution. People think that Darwin said that humans evolved from apes. Which isn't the case at all, Darwin suggested that apes and humans both came from one common creature. But no one knows what that creature was. In my opinion the theory of natural selection makes alot of sence and in some cases even in recent decades scientists have observed it in action at the Galapagos islands. smile.gif

QUOTE(speaker @ Aug 31 2006, 12:41 PM) View Post

Really. What does religion offer besides hate crimes, and pedophile priests?

Then think about what it harms/prevents.

- It discriminates homosexuals.
- It is one of the main causes of the U.S war.
- Without abortion, even more kids will be without homes.
- The whole seperation between church&state.
Widespread popular movies like The Passion of the Christ which support anti-semetic views. Now more than ever, all you hear is "*^!#^* jews, they killed Jesus". It's funny when a movie like The DaVinci Code comes out, there are riots&protests when the "almighty ruler Jesus" is questioned for possibly having relatives.

Prove that there is a god. You can't.
Keep that shit out of everyone else's life.

Add on to the list if you like, I gotta go do my 2nd job advancement for my new mage. ohmy.gif

So you're saying you would like to believe that your body will cease to exist every again after death? Christianity might discriminate against homos but it also teaches tolerance towards those who aren't like you. The cause of the US war is mainly George Bush family. Abortion is wrong I don't what part of that I should argue about >_<. and the church ever since it was created has wanted to seperate from it's host country that was one of the causes of the English during the time of Oliver Cromwell. I've never heard anyone but Cartman say "**** Jesus". The things you are talking about are all misconception of religion. When people don't like something they try to use religion to make it right. Like Bush for example calls the Middle east leaders "The Axiz of Evil" he isn't at all following the rules of Christianity. Jesus never raised a finger against those who persecuted him and yet this guy wages wars against thousands of innocent civillians. It's not just christianity that does this, it's also Islam the leaders of the middle east like Osama, the terrosrists etc.. take religion into their own hands and think it's ok to suicide bomb american soldiers while at the same time killing double the innocent civillians. So all those things of misconceptions of Religion that has been corrupted greedy minds.

And The Da Vinci code does make some sence it supports the Islamic theory that Jesus was simply a human being like another who was a messenger of Allah. So just like any other prophet Jesus also had relatives, a wife, and some children.

#36 nox

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 12:09 PM

i have some opinions on what you said & i will argue later.


i am not just against christianity, and i'm not at all saying it's the main fault of the war..it's mostly the religon of the al queada members.

#37 Christopher Robin

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 12:25 PM

B. Science is far more credible


Science... Religion is like what came first, chicken or the egg.... If there IS a god, how did he get there?


But THEN, so is science... like... how did the first bacteria get there? But IMO, Science explains WAY more... and leaves a lot less to be desired than Religion does.

#38 Hydrogen

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 12:31 PM

QUOTE(speaker @ Aug 31 2006, 12:09 PM) View Post

i have some opinions on what you said & i will argue later.
i am not just against christianity, and i'm not at all saying it's the main fault of the war..it's mostly the religon of the al queada members.
So you are basically against Islam? :-/ that suggests you greatly misunderstand what Islam is. and so do they :-/

#39 ascend

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 12:36 PM

I honestly think religion and science go together. Science can prove some explainations religion can't and religion can prove some explainations science cannot.

There was a book written a while ago, called:

Science Meets Religion: Enemies, Strangers, or Partners?

I've never read it, but it may contain some theories.

Edited by ascend, 31 August 2006 - 12:37 PM.


#40 Hydrogen

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 12:42 PM

I think the problems Christianity poses against science gets people confused that religion is Christianity. People dont understand that religions other than Christianity may not have a problem with science at all. Namely mine. There are absolutely no clashes :-/

#41 nox

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 01:32 PM

QUOTE(ascend @ Aug 31 2006, 03:36 PM) View Post

religion can prove some explainations science cannot.

a guess isn't proof

#42 Sweeney

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 01:40 PM

QUOTE(speaker @ Aug 31 2006, 09:32 PM) View Post

a guess isn't proof

You do know that almost every scientific theory on the planet is a guess, right?
A well considered, carefully researched guess, but a guess nontheless.
Every "fact" in science is part of a theory, which is a guess at a version of reality that is yet to be disproven.

By that standard, God can be considered a fact...
Though of course it isn't, due to the impossibility of disproving the existence of a God.
There's a word for that kind of theory, but it escapes me right now x.x

#43 nox

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 01:50 PM

a scientific guess is not a ordinary guess.

facts are backed up with proof

how can you consider god a fact?

#44 Hydrogen

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 01:53 PM

QUOTE(speaker @ Aug 31 2006, 02:50 PM) View Post

a scientific guess is not a ordinary guess.

facts are backed up with proof

how can you consider god a fact?
Cuz i have logical proof tbh.


#45 nox

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 01:55 PM

i have no problems with any sort of religion, or having faith in a God, but science and religion are not to be mixed.

#46 Hydrogen

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 01:58 PM

QUOTE(speaker @ Aug 31 2006, 01:55 PM) View Post

i have no problems with any sort of religion, or having faith in a God, but science and religion are not to be mixed.
Thats cool tongue.gif. My personal belief is like tetiel said...I believe that science is how God did things smile.gif. My religion has no clashes with science at all and I think thats how it should be smile.gif.

#47 Ives

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 01:58 PM

No, science is the way somebody sets something for the time being until disproven. There is no such thing as a scientific fact, just an opinion. Plenty are inclined to disagree with me, but that's just how I view it. Most of the scientists who I know have repeated this to me over and over. It's the way we model things through logical method.

But that's aside from the point of what I was going to post...


What I find funny about Christian fundamentalism is their lack of understanding what a theory is. They think that evolution is a hypotheses by their definition, when it's a well supported hypotheses. I don't get why they're quick to reject scientific proof on it. It isn't like scientists are saying we evolved from monkeys (though a few do.) Another thing I don't get is the fact that almost every other country, regardless of their official religion, teach evolution as an explanation of how everything came to be. But in America, everyone is up and arms because some Christians are taking a good idea (freedom) and barking it up. There is no traditional family in America, nor a traditional way to sell yourself. And to think they say their "freedom" gets offended by an Imam saying prayers in arabic on a speaker? (which is like a church bell.) It's stupid to say America was founded on Christian principles, or a religion. The flat out truth is it wasn't (though there was quite a bit of jewish influence and deist influence involved.)

Edited by Athean, 31 August 2006 - 02:05 PM.


#48 Guest_Casilla_*

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 02:27 PM

Religion has done a great many good things for this world. But it's like any other thing - it can be bad as well.

Religion used to lead the world in science and technology - Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism and others have all lead the world before in that area. Some things we would have never developed at all if it weren't for the power of organized religion.

Religion is an excuse to fight a war, but it is very rarely the main reason. Now note on this - while the PEOPLE may feel that they are fighting a religious war, those in charge - the politicians, the religious leaders, etc - rarely ever fight for their faith. They use religion as a motivator for their people. This has always been true, and continues to be true.

But this is not something that is UNIQUE to religion. Anything people may feel strongly over can be used to manipulate them into doing something they may not normally do.

Take PETA. People have killed scientists over animal testing. People continue to advocate against advances in medical science. Religion has nothing to do with it - in fact, many of those who are such advocates participate in very little organized religion.

The point is is that religion is NOT to blame for anything. Any time you have a group of individuals that feel very strongly on a subject, they can be manipulated to do harm.

They can also be persuaded to do a great service to their fellow man.

Religion is a tool, it can also be a reason, but primarily it is a tool.

OH, and we should not forget that not all Christians dislike the Big Bang. The Catholic Church accepts the Big Bang as a possible explanation of Scripture. Most Jews do, as well. It's just some Protestant Christians aren't so keen on the idea. wink.gif

Edited by Casilla, 31 August 2006 - 02:35 PM.


#49 Melchoire

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 03:53 PM

QUOTE(speaker @ Aug 31 2006, 01:09 PM) View Post

i have some opinions on what you said & i will argue later.
i am not just against christianity, and i'm not at all saying it's the main fault of the war..it's mostly the religon of the al queada members.

QUOTE(Hydrogen @ Aug 31 2006, 01:31 PM) View Post

So you are basically against Islam? :-/ that suggests you greatly misunderstand what Islam is. and so do they :-/


Not nessecarily, the members of Al Queada aren't exactly Muslims if they go about bombing innocent people. dry.gif

Edited by xėnon, 31 August 2006 - 03:58 PM.


#50 nox

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 06:43 PM

QUOTE(Hydrogen @ Aug 31 2006, 03:31 PM) View Post

So you are basically against Islam? :-/ that suggests you greatly misunderstand what Islam is. and so do they :-/

their religion is different than normal islam, they twist words into their own radical opinions.
i have nothing more against islam than i do to christianity, but as you said..islam supports advancments in science such as stem cell research.

QUOTE(Casilla @ Aug 31 2006, 05:27 PM) View Post

Religion has done a great many good things for this world. But it's like any other thing - it can be bad as well.

Religion used to lead the world in science and technology - Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism and others have all lead the world before in that area. Some things we would have never developed at all if it weren't for the power of organized religion.

Religion is an excuse to fight a war, but it is very rarely the main reason. Now note on this - while the PEOPLE may feel that they are fighting a religious war, those in charge - the politicians, the religious leaders, etc - rarely ever fight for their faith. They use religion as a motivator for their people. This has always been true, and continues to be true.

But this is not something that is UNIQUE to religion. Anything people may feel strongly over can be used to manipulate them into doing something they may not normally do.

Take PETA. People have killed scientists over animal testing. People continue to advocate against advances in medical science. Religion has nothing to do with it - in fact, many of those who are such advocates participate in very little organized religion.

The point is is that religion is NOT to blame for anything. Any time you have a group of individuals that feel very strongly on a subject, they can be manipulated to do harm.

They can also be persuaded to do a great service to their fellow man.

Religion is a tool, it can also be a reason, but primarily it is a tool.

OH, and we should not forget that not all Christians dislike the Big Bang. The Catholic Church accepts the Big Bang as a possible explanation of Scripture. Most Jews do, as well. It's just some Protestant Christians aren't so keen on the idea. wink.gif

so wait, what has religion done for current society?


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