Quantcast

Jump to content


Photo

Science or Religion?


  • Please log in to reply
264 replies to this topic

#51 Ives

Ives
  • 4,320 posts


Users Awards

Posted 31 August 2006 - 07:24 PM

QUOTE(xėnon @ Aug 31 2006, 04:53 PM) View Post

Not nessecarily, the members of Al Queada aren't exactly Muslims if they go about bombing innocent people. dry.gif


They're muslims. But they only account for an extremely small percentage of Muslims. Just because they're on CNN does not mean they're worth the title, though. They're extreme fundamentalists who basically brainwash people into thinking they'll go to heaven.

QUOTE(speaker @ Aug 31 2006, 07:43 PM) View Post

so wait, what has religion done for current society?

Religion is meant to provide incentive. Unfortunately, most people have taken a good idea and made it into a huge system. Then the pissed off media takes it too seriously, and over exaggerates the negatives.

Edited by Athean, 31 August 2006 - 07:25 PM.


#52 Tetiel

Tetiel
  • 11,532 posts


Users Awards

Posted 31 August 2006 - 09:48 PM

QUOTE(speaker @ Aug 31 2006, 01:41 PM) View Post

Really. What does religion offer besides hate crimes, and pedophile priests?

That is a disgusting stereotype. Just because there are a FEW Catholic priests that were pedophiles does not mean that you should stereotype them all like that. How would YOU like it if I just said that men tend to rape more than women. All men are rapists. That is YOUR logic. For goodness sakes... think things through before you say them! Also religion and I can say most definately that my religion (Methodist Christianity) absolutely positively does not teach hate crimes and in fact greatly discourages them. If one follows the true teachings of Jesus they would not commit hate crimes and love their enemy no matter how hard it may be.
QUOTE
- It discriminates homosexuals.

Again you're stereotyping. For one that is not all religion but strictly the triad of religions born from Abraham and several others. Secondly not all of those people in the triad do discrimiate against homosexuals. There is a lesbian minister in the church in Ellensburg, WA. I've seen her preach before, actually so for you to say that is absolutely yet another stereotype.
QUOTE
- It is one of the main causes of the U.S war.

You mean terrorism? Again that could be caused by anything. Just because some nutcases killed thousands of people in the name of Allah does not mean that Allah's followers are violent. That could be said about ANY group by your standards dry.gif Like Casi said even PETA does things like that and also groups like ELF do things like that but does that mean that all enviromentalists are bad? Absolutely not!
QUOTE
- Without abortion, even more kids will be without homes.

Fallacy. You have no clue if that's true or not. And what does that have to do with religion? Not all people who are anti-abortion are religious. In fact back when I was agnostic I was still against abortion.
QUOTE
- The whole seperation between church&state.

And? Yes, we do have that. Does that mean our president is not allowed to pray? rolleyes.gif That is meant to protect us from what happened to Europe a long time ago where countries like France for a while had kings used like puppets by popes and money-bought bishops. Take a look around... our country is NOTHING of the sort!
QUOTE
Widespread popular movies like The Passion of the Christ which support anti-semetic views. Now more than ever, all you hear is "*^!#^* jews, they killed Jesus". It's funny when a movie like The DaVinci Code comes out, there are riots&protests when the "almighty ruler Jesus" is questioned for possibly having relatives.

Now more than ever?! HAHAHAHA... ohhh that's so funny. You seriously need to read your history. What the jewish people are experiencing now is NOTHING to what they experienced before. I would hardly say Jewish people are victimized. And the Passion of the Christ. Have you even seen that movie? There is barely anything anti-semetic and it was very true to scripture. The Rabbis DID order his death, it is just fact that it is in the bible and it doesn't really show them at all to be completely at fault. And roits about DaVinci Code? Oooooooookay? When did those happen? Many of my friends who are Christian see no problem with the book and actually find it to be quite good. You know why? They realize it to be fiction and also the footnotes were mostly taken from Gnostic writings which are inaccurate since if you look at their culture they liked to borrow many things from many religions. You should read up on them, very interesting group of people.

QUOTE
Prove that there is a god. You can't.
Keep that shit out of everyone else's life.

Prove there isn't a god. You can't.

Before you start bashing something maybe you should try to read up on it first? Otherwise you will seem ignorant smile.gif

#53 nox

nox
  • 6,706 posts


Users Awards

Posted 31 August 2006 - 10:57 PM

QUOTE(Tetiel @ Sep 1 2006, 12:48 AM) View Post

That is a disgusting stereotype. Just because there are a FEW Catholic priests that were pedophiles does not mean that you should stereotype them all like that. How would YOU like it if I just said that men tend to rape more than women. All men are rapists. That is YOUR logic. For goodness sakes... think things through before you say them! Also religion and I can say most definately that my religion (Methodist Christianity) absolutely positively does not teach hate crimes and in fact greatly discourages them. If one follows the true teachings of Jesus they would not commit hate crimes and love their enemy no matter how hard it may be.

~joke

Again you're stereotyping. For one that is not all religion but strictly the triad of religions born from Abraham and several others. Secondly not all of those people in the triad do discrimiate against homosexuals. There is a lesbian minister in the church in Ellensburg, WA. I've seen her preach before, actually so for you to say that is absolutely yet another stereotype.

i'm not saying that every single christian hates homosexuality, but it correct me if i'm wrong..its not natural for men to have a relationship with another man

You mean terrorism? Again that could be caused by anything. Just because some nutcases killed thousands of people in the name of Allah does not mean that Allah's followers are violent. That could be said about ANY group by your standards dry.gif Like Casi said even PETA does things like that and also groups like ELF do things like that but does that mean that all enviromentalists are bad? Absolutely not!

no, the people performing their asks think that their religon is telling them to do terrible acts, and that they will be rewarded aftrr they die

Fallacy. You have no clue if that's true or not. And what does that have to do with religion? Not all people who are anti-abortion are religious. In fact back when I was agnostic I was still against abortion.

are you kidding me? abortion is usually done when the girl is one or more of a few situations.

1 she cannot afford the child
2 she was raped
3 she is not ready
4 the boyfriend does not want a child

if abortion was banned, there would be a lot of little kids without a home.

And? Yes, we do have that. Does that mean our president is not allowed to pray? rolleyes.gif That is meant to protect us from what happened to Europe a long time ago where countries like France for a while had kings used like puppets by popes and money-bought bishops. Take a look around... our country is NOTHING of the sort!

scientific research is being halted due to the influence of religion.

Now more than ever?! HAHAHAHA... ohhh that's so funny. You seriously need to read your history. What the jewish people are experiencing now is NOTHING to what they experienced before. I would hardly say Jewish people are victimized. And the Passion of the Christ. Have you even seen that movie? There is barely anything anti-semetic and it was very true to scripture. The Rabbis DID order his death, it is just fact that it is in the bible and it doesn't really show them at all to be completely at fault. And roits about DaVinci Code? Oooooooookay? When did those happen? Many of my friends who are Christian see no problem with the book and actually find it to be quite good. You know why? They realize it to be fiction and also the footnotes were mostly taken from Gnostic writings which are inaccurate since if you look at their culture they liked to borrow many things from many religions. You should read up on them, very interesting group of people.
Prove there isn't a god. You can't.


Before you start bashing something maybe you should try to read up on it first? Otherwise you will seem ignorant smile.gif


~joke

i'm not saying that every single christian hates homosexuality, but it correct me if i'm wrong..its not natural for men to have a relationship

no, the people performing their asks think that their religon is telling them to do terrible acts, and that they will be rewarded aftrr they die


are you kidding me? abortion is usually done when the girl is one or more of a few situations.

1 she cannot afford the child
2 she was raped
3 she is not ready
4 the boyfriend does not want a child

if abortion was banned, there would be a lot of little kids without a home.

scientific research is being halted due to the influence of religion.

i guess i should of clarified differently, i meant within the last 20 years. throughout all of your points, you insist on providing one situation where my point is inaccurate. "stereotype stereotype" of course not everyone feels the same, but the majority do.
there were many protests in europe, many churches told their members to boycott the film and not to attend it.

you can throw the same shit back at me, but what kind of argument is that? i said what i said because people commonly say things like "there is a god". im all for faith as i said before, but don't act like its a fact.

sorry if some grammar or spelling is off, its 3am

Edited by speaker, 31 August 2006 - 10:58 PM.


#54 Hawk

Hawk
  • hawk·ish·ly

  • 9,682 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 06:53 AM

QUOTE(speaker @ Sep 1 2006, 01:57 AM) View Post

no, the people performing their asks think that their religon is telling them to do terrible acts, and that they will be rewarded aftrr they die
are you kidding me? abortion is usually done when the girl is one or more of a few situations.

1 she cannot afford the child
2 she was raped
3 she is not ready
4 the boyfriend does not want a child


if abortion was banned, there would be a lot of little kids without a home.


I bolded the three which are most likely. Want to know why I have this problem with abortion? Because people are not responsible. I say if you have the sex you get any side effects that go with it- people need to learn from their mistakes, getting an abortion isnt exactly learning. Abortion is the irresponsible way out- and you know what? Thats the problem with society today, its not religion, its the lack of responsibility.

The underlined reason for an abortion is the ONLY situation in which it should be allowed.

Edited by hawk117, 01 September 2006 - 06:53 AM.


#55 nox

nox
  • 6,706 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 09:33 AM

QUOTE(hawk117 @ Sep 1 2006, 09:53 AM) View Post

I bolded the three which are most likely. Want to know why I have this problem with abortion? Because people are not responsible. I say if you have the sex you get any side effects that go with it- people need to learn from their mistakes, getting an abortion isnt exactly learning. Abortion is the irresponsible way out- and you know what? Thats the problem with society today, its not religion, its the lack of responsibility.

The underlined reason for an abortion is the ONLY situation in which it should be allowed.

I agree, but shit happens man. Some people are irresponsible, does that mean a child should grow up without a home?

" people need to learn from their mistakes" yeah, why don't we punish the innocent kid who had nothing to do with it.

Edited by speaker, 01 September 2006 - 09:33 AM.


#56 Hawk

Hawk
  • hawk·ish·ly

  • 9,682 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 10:05 AM

QUOTE(speaker @ Sep 1 2006, 11:33 AM) View Post

I agree, but shit happens man. Some people are irresponsible, does that mean a child should grow up without a home?

" people need to learn from their mistakes" yeah, why don't we punish the innocent kid who had nothing to do with it.
How come you keep saying they will grow up without a home? There is this magical thing called adoption. Countless families look overseas to adopt, but if we get rid of abortion people can start looking here.

We arent punishing the kid. They will grow up and live a normal life, its more a punishment for the parents. They now have to pay child support or support the child in some way, they would have to get jobs, the mother gets to go through the pain associated with having a baby, and they would miss out on a lot of things they would like to do because of this child. Is it a punishment for the child? No.

It teaches everyone a lesson. Say a teenager gets pregnant, everyone in the school will know, and NOBODY will make the same mistake, because they will see all the problems she is having.

#57 nox

nox
  • 6,706 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 10:52 AM

well, it depends on what you believe in. you personally believe in learning the hard way, i don't. i understand where you are coming from.

#58 Guest_Casilla_*

Guest_Casilla_*

Posted 01 September 2006 - 11:27 AM

Speaker, you seem to have a knowledge of history that only lasts about fifty years.

Let's see, what hasn't religion done for us?

If it weren't for religion, we would not have math, astronomy, chemistry, physics...basically any major advancement in knowledge in the past was done because the only way the society in question could survive was through the organized power of religion.

Well, except the alphabet/written language. At least in the Western world (not sure about China, etc), the alphabet was created by merchants.

But the only reason it was taken and utilized for everyday life (especially recording history, which is a handy thing for us) was because of the priests.

While the Catholic church was at one time against some radical ideas (mainly those that went against pre-conceived notions of the Universe), it was the major proponent of math and sciences for a long time.

As was Islam - Islam is extremely progressive - it's just that some Muslim socieities these days are going backwards. I'm not entirely sure why - I'm sure Hydro could explain that for you - I doubt it just has to do with the hate of everything Western and progressive, but more worried about becoming Godless like the Western world apparently is.

All the great empires and great societies of the world were run by religion and/or progressed through the power of organized religion. While all empires inevitably fall, their impact on civilization does not go unnoticed and the technology not completely lost.

While great minds like Newton and Gallileo went against the Church - the only reason they were able to make their discoveries at all was because of principles and theories already established by previous Church priests, monks, etc.

While the progression of science can exist outside organized religion, for thousands of years it has not. Nearly everything we have today in society either came directly as a result of religiously driven advancement, or was derived from previous advancements.

You owe your way of life to religion.

But does that mean that religion is useless to the world, now that we can progress outside of it? Not really. Where before, religion was structure and order to civilization, it now provides a much-needed spiritual aspect to the people.

Ironically enough, it did not used to do this for the average person. The average person used to be more worried about when their next meal was than having time to think about the mysteries of life.

But because of the advancements of technologies that have increased our luxury of living - running water, refrigeration, easily accessed meals and clothing, sturdy shelters that don't fall apart, etc. (the important things of life, honestly), people now have time to dwell and worry. And religion helps them with that.

Religion provides comfort, motivation, and in individuals who would not otherwise have them, religion provides morals. After all, some people are more worried about burning in Hell than going to jail. wink.gif

#59 Melchoire

Melchoire
  • 5,284 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 01:38 PM

QUOTE(Tetiel @ Aug 31 2006, 10:48 PM) View Post

Now more than ever?! HAHAHAHA... ohhh that's so funny. You seriously need to read your history. What the jewish people are experiencing now is NOTHING to what they experienced before. I would hardly say Jewish people are victimized. And the Passion of the Christ. Have you even seen that movie? There is barely anything anti-semetic and it was very true to scripture. The Rabbis DID order his death, it is just fact that it is in the bible and it doesn't really show them at all to be completely at fault. And roits about DaVinci Code? Oooooooookay? When did those happen? Many of my friends who are Christian see no problem with the book and actually find it to be quite good. You know why? They realize it to be fiction and also the footnotes were mostly taken from Gnostic writings which are inaccurate since if you look at their culture they liked to borrow many things from many religions. You should read up on them, very interesting group of people.
Prove there isn't a god. You can't.

Weren't the Gnostics rather close to the times of Jesus? Some people think that their chronicles are more credible that those of Gospels later published after Constantine's Council of Nicaea because the council changes several parts of the gospels.

#60 nox

nox
  • 6,706 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 02:05 PM

Casilla, we're talking about current situations; things do change over centuries, believe it or not.


QUOTE
Speaker, you seem to have a knowledge of history that only lasts about fifty years.


I do have an extensive knowledge of history, but is all of that really relevant to what is going on in the present?


Edited by speaker, 01 September 2006 - 02:07 PM.


#61 Sweeney

Sweeney
  • 1,097 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 02:07 PM

Speaker, did you just look at the fact that Cas' post was relating to "ancient history" and not actually read it?

Test out the last four paragraphs for size, and consider the rest as more of a foundation for our entire society. Ish.

#62 nox

nox
  • 6,706 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 02:15 PM

QUOTE(Joe @ Sep 1 2006, 05:07 PM) View Post

Speaker, did you just look at the fact that Cas' post was relating to "ancient history" and not actually read it?

Test out the last four paragraphs for size, and consider the rest as more of a foundation for our entire society. Ish.

I did read it, and from what i'm getting at she was explaining how technology that the Church created/discovered 300 million years ago has now a great effect on society.

As I said before, i'm fine with all things tied to spiritual improvement, praying to god, etc etc. I just think that things that are in "question" (may be true, may not be) should be kept out of laws, and science.

#63 Sweeney

Sweeney
  • 1,097 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 02:18 PM

I think I'm misunderstanding you, because from my standpoint, science is the doctrine all about questions, whereas religion is all about absolute truth...

#64 Ives

Ives
  • 4,320 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 02:28 PM

Abortion in the case of rape, or possibly to protect the mothers life is acceptable by all means. But that's not the point. Passion of the Christ was made by Mel Gibson. Mel Gibson loves torture. Just see his other films. Braveheart. Lethal Weapon 4. Tons of torture. It would justify making millions of dollars because it would portray Jesus's death, which people think wasn't that brutal. My verdict is that Gibson is a torture whore, and that a movie about how Jesus was killed, rather than about Jesus' life, is stupid. Tell the full story, not the torture and whipping.

#65 nox

nox
  • 6,706 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 02:29 PM

You can't prove religion either ways, (don't argue this, please.) so it doesn't make sense for something that is possibly fictional to be the cause of decisions that effect the whole country (abortion, scientific research, etc.).

Understand?


#66 Ives

Ives
  • 4,320 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 02:34 PM

Does this justify the one reason for them not to believe? You have to remember, most people get pulled into a faith by fear, or promise of happiness. Buddhism promises happiness, and grants it under conditions of practicing unconditional love. Islam promises happiness if you are a good person overall, and your deeds outweigh your sins. Christianity promises eternal life if you truly accept Christ as a savior. There are so many things you are putting out of the way to make that argument. Additionally, spiritual health is a good thing, whether you're an atheist, a jew, or a Christian for that matter. It gives you a sense of knowledge, and allows you to feel more free. People who have this sense of happiness aren't going to turn to agnosticism because they believe in a basic fact that there is no proof either way.

Though there is a little bit of proof. Hydrogen posted a video recently which talks about how the Qur'an directly mentions science without you even having to intepret it in a non-literal sense.

#67 Sweeney

Sweeney
  • 1,097 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 02:39 PM

QUOTE(speaker @ Sep 1 2006, 11:29 PM) View Post

You can't prove religion either ways, (don't argue this, please.) so it doesn't make sense for something that is possibly fictional to be the cause of decisions that effect the whole country (abortion, scientific research, etc.).

Understand?

You can't prove anything...
But... if we go by the common rule of science, the practise of taking repeats of an experiment to determine the "correct" outcome:

Consider how many people on the planet that believe in a higher power of any kind.
Take that number and compare it to the number of those who do not believe.
For the sake of argument, we'll dismiss agnostics as a failed repeat.

I think you'll find that the belief is the outweighing factor, demanding, by scientific principle, that it takes precidence over the belief that there is no God.

Understand?

#68 nox

nox
  • 6,706 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 02:45 PM

sure, i understand what you're saying. but there is not one drop of proof to suggest that there is a god.

so if everyone believes something, it must be true? what kind of argument is that

Edited by speaker, 01 September 2006 - 02:45 PM.


#69 Sweeney

Sweeney
  • 1,097 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 02:51 PM

Have you ever watched V for Vendetta?

#70 Ives

Ives
  • 4,320 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 02:52 PM

Of course there isn't proof for a God. Does it mean that the idea of a God should be ruled out simply because there isn't a scientific explanation for it? Not really, because the logic is that God is the supreme of everything. Though the majority doesn't count for too much, seeing as most aren't expirienced in the field, and old habits die hard.

Whether you are a hardcore believer something had to pull the strings, or that you think God is the most barking retarded idea on earth, the people who look for the answers (not just sit on their ass and get fed "knowledge"), and try to find it before they rule things out, deserve respect.

#71 nox

nox
  • 6,706 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 02:53 PM

i have, you can find my review in this thread:

http://www.neocodex....showtopic=51169

#72 Sweeney

Sweeney
  • 1,097 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 03:07 PM

The power of belief is a lot stronger than the power behind a fact...

I am of the opinion that the immense belief in God is what makes him real...
You cannot deny that through the belief in him, God influences our society...

#73 nox

nox
  • 6,706 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 03:13 PM

QUOTE(Joe @ Sep 1 2006, 06:07 PM) View Post

The power of belief is a lot stronger than the power behind a fact...

I am of the opinion that the immense belief in God is what makes him real...
You cannot deny that through the belief in him, God influences our society...

Yes, the belief of God damages our society.

You're missing the point. This isn't an argument of if god is real or not, because its not a possible argument. It cannot be proven either ways, so it's better to leave it. If you wish to believe in a God, so be it. It should not influence the rest of society that doesn't agree with the bible.



#74 Guest_Casilla_*

Guest_Casilla_*

Posted 01 September 2006 - 03:13 PM

Dude. We all know that there's no way to prove that there's a God. But that doesn't mean that people shouldn't believe in God. People can believe whatever they damn well want.

I'm an atheist, but I will defend to the death a person's right to religion. Religion DOES have a place in this world and it IS a good thing for people to have.

But there's bad people, no matter where you go and what you do. Religion can be used as an excuse and as a rallying point, but it is not what's inherently wrong.

What's inherently wrong is that we're human and humans make mistakes and humans are subject to mental illness and greed and any other number of things which can hurt others. It is NOT a quality of religion; it's a quality of humanity.

But that's the way we are and in spite of it (and because of it), we can do great things and terrible things. smile.gif

You have to love humanity for what it is, because it's how we got where we are today. And if you aren't thankful for THAT, then you have absolutely no concept of how shitty it was to live a thousand years ago. =P

And before you go on about abortion or homosexuality, I'll say two things.

A) Anyone who thinks evolution is true and believes that it is the way of our future should be against homosexuality - because guess what it does? Limits the gene pool. Even IF homosexuality is a "bad gene" there may be other qualities which are unique to the individual and beneficial. Are the costs more than the benefits?

So I find that ironic that the exact opposite tends to take place; but whatever.

Of course, on the other hand, if in the future we are able to create babies from the DNA of two men or two women...then the tables change, because at that point we're opening the gene pool. =P

B) Abortion is a matter of human rights. If someone kills a baby that is born, it's a crime, there is no doubt about it. For the majority of the third trimester, a baby can survive outside the womb in a hospital, or if it's late enough in term, on very little assistance (outside of, you know, normal assistance).

That's a VERY delicate balance. At which point is someone human, and which point is someone a blob of flesh?

And don't go on about kids growing up without families - while that is VERY well true, you don't kill people just because you feel they'd benefit from it. That's the exact same line of thinking as, "Hey, you know, Stephen Hawkings can't walk or even move his head and lives his whole life in a wheelchair...it must be miserable...I think I'm going to do him a favour and kill him."

At the same time, do I feel a week old blob of cells is human? No. But where do you draw the line?

That's what pro-lifers are concerned about. They can't see a line, so they're against it entirely. So you must understand that line of thinking - they are NOT about taking away the rights of the woman. It's not even something that's MENTIONED in the Bible (like homosexuality). It's just something that happened as a result of the Catholic Church going against it (and subsequently, the Protestants followed, because no matter how much they try to distance themselves from the Church...it inevitably happens that they do follow trends...if only the Protestants would accept the Big Bang like the Catholics have...)

I think there HAS to be research done into this. I think it has to do with brain development. When the brain becomes active and fully functional as a human brain - which happens sometime in the second trimester - then you have yourself human life. Because what makes us who we are, really? Our brains. It's what separates us from the apes. =P

You're going to have to understand people, Speaker, before you go telling them that they're wrong. You have to understand motives. Abortion is not about religion nor taking away rights. It's about a very fine line.

Homosexuality...well, that is about religion...but there's been a lot of misconceptions and negativity about homosexuality for thousands of years...even then, however, it IS accepted in America, despite what you may think. People accept it. Some don't like it, a very few even hate it, but everyone has accepted it as not going to "go away." People are dragging their feet over gay marriage, but we're basically at a formality, now. Gay marriage will happen eventually...within the next five to ten years, definitely...if only because the UK and Canada have already done it and we ALWAYS follow Britain in social trends. wink.gif

So honestly, don't waste your time over it. =P

#75 Sweeney

Sweeney
  • 1,097 posts


Users Awards

Posted 01 September 2006 - 03:15 PM

You turned it into the argument of whether God is real or not when you said religion was hokey because you cannot prove the existence of God, whereas science is concerned only with fact.

I was taking your argument, and proving it immaterial to the question at hand.

*EDIT:Damn you Cas, for writing in Notepad and pasting it in tongue.gif If I knew you were replying, I'd have waited to see what you were saying x.x*


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users