122 replies to this topic

[Waser Lave]

Okay, here is what you are saying. A man wins the lottery, wins tons of cash and is very fortunate, another man that entered in the same lottery didn't win. According to your logic, because something bad happened to the man who lost (The bad thing being he lost say $50 on buying tickets), then the man who won must be better than him. As you can see, it's very flawed.

That's hardly the same as what i said...

The lottery is completely random and choosing numbers is nowhere near the same as having faith in your own beliefs and ultimately yourself.

In my opinion, you don't choose whether or not to believe in God, you're either born with the capacity to believe in a God or you aren't and therefore shouldn't be punished for something which you cannot choose.

It looks like we aren't getting anywhere, i guess we're at opposite ends what i call the God-Belief-Spectrum (yes i just invented it).

I think Laser means after death...

Yes i was.

Edited by Laser Wave, 21 December 2006 - 06:23 PM.

[Waser Lave]

I just think that some people have the ability (which they were born with) to believe in something which cannot be proved, and others (including me) just don't have this ability and need to have enough proof (the levels of which would vary for each person) for them to accept it as fact. Because of this i believe that it's completely unfair for people to be judged just because they don't believe in something when it's out of their control. They don't actually choose whether or not to believe, but the capability of this faith is built into their personality at birth.

If it was proved to an acceptable level for me then i would have no problem in believing in a God and if necessary changing lifestyle and whatever, but as yet this hasn't happened for me.

That's the funniest thing I find in debating religion, in all my life of debating I have had people always telling me Christianity is this and that and yet those same people have never in their life read more than 20 or so book in the Bible, and they sit there and try to tell me what Christianity is.

I hope you don't think i've been trying to tell you what Christianity is about, i couldn't care less what Christianity is actually about because i don't think God and organised religion is inextricably linked and wouldn't insult you in pretending that i have a clue about Christianity or the bible.

If Christianity works for you, then fine. But i think that people who believe in an organised religion need to accept that other people have different beliefs and that this doesn't mean that they are any worse than the believers in any way.

Well then can you explain a little more? You wouldn't believe how much I was struggling to understand what you said, so I was kind of second guessing.

What didn't you understand and i'll try to explain it.

Edited by Laser Wave, 21 December 2006 - 06:47 PM.

[Waser Lave]

Well I think that's a really ignorant thing to say that some people can believe and others can't. There is no scientific explanation that describes how one person can be impaired and believe and another be impaired and not believe. I don't know what you're going on about, but it makes no sense and as you are most familiar with has no factual evidence. Anyways, I have to leave now, so don't be offended when I don't reply for awhile.

Surely it's equally ignorant to say that everybody can believe in God then, because they're both about belief and there is no factual evidence for the existence of God after all.

You believe that everybody has the chance to believe in God and that they choose whether to or not, and i believe that some people are born with the ability for blind faith and others need a certain level of factual evidence (be it empirical or otherwise) for them to believe.

There's nothing wrong with us believing different things. Life would be so boring if everyone thought the same way...

[Ilya]

... how do you think the first human was made? Evolution? from moneys? where did monkeys come from? the evolution might go all the way back to snails... then where did snails come from? from a rock? if so where did the rock come from? everything has its doubt...

[Sweeney]

There there, Adobe.
It's ok if you think the rocks are alive...

[Waser Lave]

Now, you made a mistake in your post. You gave two options, blind faith and factual evidence, you forgot the in between. I don't have a blind faith, many people like to automatically assume that if you're a Christian you're running off blind faith. No, I have a lot of data backing up my faith, from simple arguments to more complex arguments, my faith is far from blind.

In that case you'd obviously fall into my "others need a certain level of factual evidence (be it empirical or otherwise) for them to believe" category. You've discovered enough evidence to prove to yourself that God exists and therefore you believe.

Think of it on a spectrum:

Blind Faith (extreme) [----------------------------------------------------------------------] Non-Belief (extreme)

----------------------------->
Levels of (acceptable) factual evidence increased to the right*

* Remember, everybody has different levels and types of evidence which they find acceptable

People who don't believe in God currently don't have enough evidence (which they'd find acceptable) for them to believe in God, yes they have the capability, but they require much more evidence or different types of evidence than other people.

I didn't say that people don't have the capability to believe in God at all, i said that some people don't have the capability for blind faith.

Edited by Laser Wave, 22 December 2006 - 06:04 AM.

[Tetiel]

What has changed to disallow this faith? I believe if you have a true faith for God nothing can come in between it, so long as you try to keep it that way. Your case looks like you didn't try, or tried and gave up, either way it all leads back to you not really having a strong faith in the first place.

Until you know her situation, it isn't exactly right to say that. A lot of people can lose faith in their lives for a lot of various reasons and who knows, maybe she's had so much shit pile up in her life it's almost impossible to believe, things that you haven't had to deal with, you know? So don't judge her case until you know the true story behind it.

Anyways yes, I believe in God. I've had falterings, but I still do. I'm not a literal christian, though.

[Frizzle]

Did she ask for help?

[Frizzle]

I don't have the constant problem of preaching to the wrong choir, unlike you.

[Frizzle]

No I want a blue peter badge.

[Frizzle]

Ask God to make me a batch, toot sweet.

[Frizzle]

Get God to ask Hitler then, duh.

[Frizzle]

I can't talk to fictional characters.

[Tetiel]

Do I sense a cat fight?

[Ives]

... how do you think the first human was made? Evolution? from moneys? where did monkeys come from? the evolution might go all the way back to snails... then where did snails come from? from a rock? if so where did the rock come from? everything has its doubt...

Monkeys? What have I said? It wasn't monkeys. It was another species which shared common ancestry with monkeys that split into two because of geographical reasons.

[Sweeney]

And poor snails... just because they're slimy, you assume they're evolutionarily degenerate...
I'd like to see you grow your own house on your back and carry it your entire life.
Molluscs get a lot of stick, it's sad.

[pyke]

Well see, that's you're problem, you only said blind faith and factual evidence, not the in between. Anyways, it's a stupid debate, because if you really did any kind of research you can find that there's just as much evidence to prove God as there is just as much evidence to prove evolution without creation. All you have to do is use counter productive means, if it can't be proved then something must have created it. What was the cause that made the big bang? I think Robert Jastrow summed it up the best:
That was his concluding paragraph in his book "God And Astronomers" when he was discussing the Big Bang.

If it can't be proved, that doesn't mean it was created. Could just mean we haven't discovered how to prove it yet

Anywhooo... maybe god created the universe through science? Maybe he was something thought up by some authority seeking shit disturber? Maybe he's like Santa, something made to give hope? Who knows?

[RandomNameIgnoreIt]

I don't presume to know or guess. Whether or not people who pray are talking to God or just talking to themselves, what good it does is done for their minds either way. What bad that comes from religion would probably be done either way too. People that kill unjustly in the name of God are pretty much bastards anyway that would find another excuse to kill if they didn't have religion.

Basically, I guess what I'm saying is that no one can know for sure (belief isn't proof, but it's not meaningless either) and in this life it doesn't really matter. I believe that what does matter is who you are and what you do.

[Blake]

Well.. I have to because it is my religion, but I am not faithful and don't really care.

[Alex]

Well.. I have to because it is my religion, but I am not faithful and don't really care.

Thats the worst of all sides to be honest. Why are you that religion if you dont care and are not faithful?

[pyke]

Thats the worst of all sides to be honest. Why are you that religion if you dont care and are not faithful?

Keep the parents happy? I pretend to be a devout protestant to keep them off my case, that's for sure

[Alex]

Keep the parents happy? I pretend to be a devout protestant to keep them off my case, that's for sure

Why dont you tell your parents