96 replies to this topic

[Hydrogen]

Here Hydro, for you

Oh wow . Thanks . Do you mind telling me the source also? The references list is nice

[Sweeney]

Oh wow . Thanks . Do you mind telling me the source also? The references list is nice

Oh, please... you're not impressed by that?
Anyone can retrofit obscure scripture to analogise with established science.

Now, I'd be impressed if you could show me a scientific fact that was established and put to practical use from the Koran, that hasn't yet been discovered by traditional scientific avenues.

[pyke]

http://www.bigissueg...anscience.shtml

It's a neat read.

And joe, it could be argued that considering that the Koran is correct (even if it is correct in a vague matter) in all of its claims, than it stops being coincidence and starts being more and more amazing

[Hydrogen]

Oh, please... you're not impressed by that?
Anyone can retrofit obscure scripture to analogise with established science.

Now, I'd be impressed if you could show me a scientific fact that was established and put to practical use from the Koran, that hasn't yet been discovered by traditional scientific avenues.

Explaining to you the proofs against retrofitting would take me too long and would be too complex for this moment. Perhaps some other day.

http://www.bigissueg...anscience.shtml

It's a neat read.

Thanks .

[Hawk]

Dear Sean,

We have faith. In John Irving's novel A Prayer for Owen Meany one of the main characters, Owen Meany, says something along the lines of "Faith based on evidence is not faith at all." In response to your statement about Radiocarbon dating, how do you know it is accurate? Were you alive ten thousand years ago to see any given thing die? Or is it because you have faith in science.

You tell me you believe in the Big Bang, but you have neither seen it nor can you reproduce it. You are relying on faith to say that it did happen. Christianity may be a crutch to some, but why must you bunch about two billion people into one group based on your observations of some people? Hell is not the only reason driving many Christians, but once again, it may influence some. Also, why must we have a reason to go to Church besides believing? Is that not sufficient for you? Finally, I'd suggest you quit generalizing, it makes you look dumb.

So please, explain yourself to me. Why do you put your faith in science? What is wrong with the Bible being written thousands of years ago with around forty people contributing? How would modern science affect the fact that Jesus was put on a cross to die for our sins? I really would love to know, especially since the burden of proof is on the accuser.

Sincerely,
Hawk

[sonic]

I think the big crunch has been proven already? Correct me if I'm wrong .

Negative.
Actually physicists currently believe that the big crunch will not happen because there is enough mass(energy) in the expanding universe to keep it expanding forever. They could be wrong, but as last I have heard the universe has crossed the "point of no return" meaning that there was enough matter to hold the universe from collapsing.

You tell me you believe in the Big Bang, but you have neither seen it nor can you reproduce it. You are relying on faith to say that it did happen.

Good point.
I doubt sean has a physics degree and can safely say that he has done enough study to not have to take other peoples word for it, therefore it is faith that makes him believe.

[Amagius]

I am an atheist. I don't see "hard" proof in macroevolution, so I cannot say I'm an evolutionist, but find it more viable than creationism.

[Ives]

The idea of Jesus according to history is nothing spectacular. It was a nutty prophet who at the time claimed to be God. It was hardly original, he just managed to sell it well enough and get it by chance indoctrinated by the Romans posthumously. I have no problems with people who want to believe in Jesus. After all, I believe in a lot of what Ron Paul has to say, so we're all a bit nutty, you know? Even the buddhists.

[Amagius]

Mmm, I just saw Tetiel's post on being a theistic evolutionist. How do you support this juncture of thought? It seems to me that if you believe in evolution, the Creation story cannot be played out in full--The six days of work, Adam and Eve, the tree of knowledge and the tree of good and evil. It becomes a convoluted half-truth or simple parable. If so, then the purpose and original promise of the Messiah is removed [as, at the end of Genesis 1, we find that God intends to send a savior. -Amag], thereby removing a key component of Judaism and Christianity.

Also, if any Christian can answer this, I've wondered this for many moons now and found no reasons. Originally, God created the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden. If one ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, one was able to discern sin, or good and evil. If you ate from the tree of life, you would gain life eternal. This is shown when God says something to the nature of, "Thank God they didn't eat the fruit from the tree of life, lest they spend their eternity on this hellhole!"

Well, if the wages of sin is death, and death was caused be the introduction of sin into the world, then what was the original purpose of the tree of life, since death would not exist at that point? Is this not one of the strangest set-ups ever?

[sonic]

Mmm, I just saw Tetiel's post on being a theistic evolutionist. How do you support this juncture of thought? It seems to me that if you believe in evolution, the Creation story cannot be played out in full--The six days of work, Adam and Eve, the tree of knowledge and the tree of good and evil. It becomes a convoluted half-truth or simple parable. If so, then the purpose and original promise of the Messiah is removed [as, at the end of Genesis 1, we find that God intends to send a savior. -Amag], thereby removing a key component of Judaism and Christianity.

Also, if any Christian can answer this, I've wondered this for many moons now and found no reasons. Originally, God created the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden. If one ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, one was able to discern sin, or good and evil. If you ate from the tree of life, you would gain life eternal. This is shown when God says something to the nature of, "Thank God they didn't eat the fruit from the tree of life, lest they spend their eternity on this hellhole!"

Well, if the wages of sin is death, and death was caused be the introduction of sin into the world, then what was the original purpose of the tree of life, since death would not exist at that point? Is this not one of the strangest set-ups ever?

I am in no way trying to speak for tetiel, but the way I see it is this. The Bible in no way can be found as an historically accurate piece of literature. The dates of everything contradict other dates in other Gospels. An example being, The Gospel of Luke has a different date for the Baptism of Jesus than the Gospel of mark has. Same with the date of John the Baptists death. There are many cases of this. Many argue that it was translation problems that lead to this, but that is trivial at best. The bible instead is, in simplest terms, a book of guidelines. Many of them still relevant to this day.

I would like to quote the late great Gerry Benninger. "The bible was not mailed down from heaven, man wrote it, and man is never perfect"

Edited by Sonic, 21 February 2008 - 08:06 PM.

[T3cHniC]

I'm just curious if anyone read my reply a page back or so.
Also I think that it is funny someone said faith based on fact isn't faith. So with that beingsaid why are you trying to fight fire with fire?

[Tetiel]

Mmm, I just saw Tetiel's post on being a theistic evolutionist. How do you support this juncture of thought? It seems to me that if you believe in evolution, the Creation story cannot be played out in full--The six days of work, Adam and Eve, the tree of knowledge and the tree of good and evil. It becomes a convoluted half-truth or simple parable. If so, then the purpose and original promise of the Messiah is removed [as, at the end of Genesis 1, we find that God intends to send a savior. -Amag], thereby removing a key component of Judaism and Christianity.

Also, if any Christian can answer this, I've wondered this for many moons now and found no reasons. Originally, God created the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden. If one ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, one was able to discern sin, or good and evil. If you ate from the tree of life, you would gain life eternal. This is shown when God says something to the nature of, "Thank God they didn't eat the fruit from the tree of life, lest they spend their eternity on this hellhole!"

Well, if the wages of sin is death, and death was caused be the introduction of sin into the world, then what was the original purpose of the tree of life, since death would not exist at that point? Is this not one of the strangest set-ups ever?

I am no theologist so I can't really answer your question either as well... I think it's more of a parable to be interpreted. And see I do believe that a lot of things are parables in the bible. I don't believe it took literally six days for the earth to be made. I can't remember where I read it but supposedly the original words it was written in could mean days but could also mean "period of time." I happen to believe that a day is just a stage of the earth being created. I think the way that it is said occurred in science too. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course. For example in the beginning there was nothing. Then the heavens and the earth were created just like space and the forms of planets and stars. The waters formed on the surface just like it did in early history. God then changed day and night which I interpret as making the earth spin so there were separation. Life then started in the oceans and slowly came onto the land. And so on. It isn't exact but it's more that I just don't take it literally. Some Christians do and that's their choice but I believe in a hybrid religion I guess you could say There are many Christians who believe the same. A lot of the problem also with Genesis is for a long time it was passed down just by word of mouth and not written down for thousands and thousands of years. Perhaps you could just call me a skeptical Christian. Some would call me even hypocritical which is fine by me. I just believe what I feel it is right to believe. Everyone has to find their own way.

[phalkon]

why can't we all just settle on religious freedom of choice?

choose what you want, and don't bitch at people who don't follow you.

[sonic]

Two words:

Don't stereotype

[Hydrogen]

why can't we all just settle on religious freedom of choice?

choose what you want, and don't bitch at people who don't follow you.

[Amagius]

I am no theologist so I can't really answer your question either as well... I think it's more of a parable to be interpreted. And see I do believe that a lot of things are parables in the bible. I don't believe it took literally six days for the earth to be made. I can't remember where I read it but supposedly the original words it was written in could mean days but could also mean "period of time." I happen to believe that a day is just a stage of the earth being created. I think the way that it is said occurred in science too. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course. For example in the beginning there was nothing. Then the heavens and the earth were created just like space and the forms of planets and stars. The waters formed on the surface just like it did in early history. God then changed day and night which I interpret as making the earth spin so there were separation. Life then started in the oceans and slowly came onto the land. And so on. It isn't exact but it's more that I just don't take it literally. Some Christians do and that's their choice but I believe in a hybrid religion I guess you could say There are many Christians who believe the same. A lot of the problem also with Genesis is for a long time it was passed down just by word of mouth and not written down for thousands and thousands of years. Perhaps you could just call me a skeptical Christian. Some would call me even hypocritical which is fine by me. I just believe what I feel it is right to believe. Everyone has to find their own way.

Technically, when the Old Testament is translated, the word "yom," which refers to a literal day is used. While it is is a possibility that when Genesis was recorded that it was open to figurative language, Hebrew is also known to be a very precise language, and as such, leans towards a literal meaning.

Also, the first five books of the Old Testament, the Pentateuch, were, by majority belief, recorded by Moses through divine inspiration. Following that point, the Israelites used a very specific and taxing methodology to pass down their scrolls. I'm not saying the possibility of edits are out of the scope of thought, but it must've occurred very early and in limited exposure.

I don't mean this offensively, but I still struggle to see how Christianity and evolution can actually mix. When you look at the amount of references to Adam in other books of the Bible, the geneology lists, et cetera, it seems to call for a fairly literal interpretation of the Creation tale.

I am in no way trying to speak for tetiel, but the way I see it is this. The Bible in no way can be found as an historically accurate piece of literature. The dates of everything contradict other dates in other Gospels. An example being, The Gospel of Luke has a different date for the Baptism of Jesus than the Gospel of mark has. Same with the date of John the Baptists death. There are many cases of this. Many argue that it was translation problems that lead to this, but that is trivial at best. The bible instead is, in simplest terms, a book of guidelines. Many of them still relevant to this day.

I would like to quote the late great Gerry Benninger. "The bible was not mailed down from heaven, man wrote it, and man is never perfect"

I would, again admitting that I am an atheist, argue for the historical authenticity of the Bible to a degree. But, to the thing that really caught my eyes, were your claims of contradictions of the date of John the Baptist's death and the Baptism of Jesus. If you could cite these, I would be much appreciative, as I've never heard of this.

Edited by Amagius, 22 February 2008 - 09:14 PM.

[Gen]

Have you ever read Sophy's World? Well, I started to read. The book says that nothing can be created from nothing so, from where god came?

Well, this part I kind of ignored. You see, I don't need to see air to proof that air exists, do I? Do I have to see a tornado to proof that air exist? No. Well, omethings you just feel that exist. God exist, he has proven to me on my worst times, and I think that maybe some atheists stopped beliving in god because he didn't do something for them like: "God give me a car!" nothing happens and you never win a car, and so the guy say "God doesn't exist because I didn't get a car!". You know, god do what he thinks that is right in the right time. I past throught very hard decisions about friendship and love and for some reason, sometimes I felt like god had abandoned me, testing me. I didn't lose my faith. I may not go to the church, but I really believe in Jesus and God, as whell on Sacred Spirit. HE has proven throught miracles, and god appears in the small things more than the big ones, you know. Life is a start... Why we exist? Why isn't this all black? You know, I believe that god created the first form of life, or if he didn't, he made with earth could support this life, and so he left the evolution to these beings.Science may seem to disprove God, but it only prove that something must have created all this, it has to have a beggining.
As I didn't lose my faith, back to when I was, God showed me the way, throught a guy that I didn't even thrust anymore, this guy was calm, and very thrustable, he helped me to decide and now I found my way. I found out that not everyone is there to hurt you and you can have some hope, there are good people in this world. That's why I said that God appears in the small things. A friend just sit on my side, and woop! He helped me with my life, destiny? I think that god helped me. Or when I pray to my Angel. I already past by somekind of miracle.
I was walking on the street late at night, I had to go to my grandma's house. The street was plain empty. So I started to pray. Man, ALL the street lights were green for me and even the guy who's crazy and likes to kick everyone, for some reason, when I passed by him, he had his head down. The weirdest people that could harm me simply changed their routes and I got to my grandma's home very well and on time to eat a pizza. What I had in my grandma's was also a little family reunion, I talked with my uncle, my aunt, my cousin, saw my little cousin and my granduncles and grandaunts. Everything was good.
Everytime I pray to my angel everything gets fine, and well. I guess this is my proof, and I hope that miracles can happen to you.
By the way, on "Sophy's World" the philosopher who gives classes to Sophy, say that people are so ok with their life that they forget to see what is around them, the miracles of life, that everything was new and that if the world was a rabit and the universe a magician's hat, the philosophers would be right on the edge, while the other people would be accomodated on the rabbit's body. I say that Sophy's World is a GREAT book and everyone should read it

[Sweeney]

Have you ever read Sophy's World? Well, I started to read. The book says that nothing can be created from nothing so, from where god came?

Well, this part I kind of ignored. You see, I don't need to see air to proof that air exists, do I? Do I have to see a tornado to proof that air exist? No. Well, omethings you just feel that exist. God exist, he has proven to me on my worst times, and I think that maybe some atheists stopped beliving in god because he didn't do something for them like: "God give me a car!" nothing happens and you never win a car, and so the guy say "God doesn't exist because I didn't get a car!". You know, god do what he thinks that is right in the right time. I past throught very hard decisions about friendship and love and for some reason, sometimes I felt like god had abandoned me, testing me. I didn't lose my faith. I may not go to the church, but I really believe in Jesus and God, as whell on Sacred Spirit. HE has proven throught miracles, and god appears in the small things more than the big ones, you know. Life is a start... Why we exist? Why isn't this all black? You know, I believe that god created the first form of life, or if he didn't, he made with earth could support this life, and so he left the evolution to these beings.Science may seem to disprove God, but it only prove that something must have created all this, it has to have a beggining.
As I didn't lose my faith, back to when I was, God showed me the way, throught a guy that I didn't even thrust anymore, this guy was calm, and very thrustable, he helped me to decide and now I found my way. I found out that not everyone is there to hurt you and you can have some hope, there are good people in this world. That's why I said that God appears in the small things. A friend just sit on my side, and woop! He helped me with my life, destiny? I think that god helped me. Or when I pray to my Angel. I already past by somekind of miracle.
I was walking on the street late at night, I had to go to my grandma's house. The street was plain empty. So I started to pray. Man, ALL the street lights were green for me and even the guy who's crazy and likes to kick everyone, for some reason, when I passed by him, he had his head down. The weirdest people that could harm me simply changed their routes and I got to my grandma's home very well and on time to eat a pizza. What I had in my grandma's was also a little family reunion, I talked with my uncle, my aunt, my cousin, saw my little cousin and my granduncles and grandaunts. Everything was good.
Everytime I pray to my angel everything gets fine, and well. I guess this is my proof, and I hope that miracles can happen to you.
By the way, on "Sophy's World" the philosopher who gives classes to Sophy, say that people are so ok with their life that they forget to see what is around them, the miracles of life, that everything was new and that if the world was a rabit and the universe a magician's hat, the philosophers would be right on the edge, while the other people would be accomodated on the rabbit's body. I say that Sophy's World is a GREAT book and everyone should read it

The sheer arrogance of your post is outstanding.
You honestly think the almighty creator of the universe reaches down and cradles you safely home because you whispered a few platitudes under your breath, but he refuses to save the lives of terminally ill Christians every day?

If that helps you sleep at night, then whatever, but if it was truly the case, I'd be deeply concerned about the psychological state of your God.

[Waser Lave]

The sheer arrogance of your post is outstanding.
You honestly think the almighty creator of the universe reaches down and cradles you safely home because you whispered a few platitudes under your breath, but he refuses to save the lives of terminally ill Christians every day?

If that helps you sleep at night, then whatever, but if it was truly the case, I'd be deeply concerned about the psychological state of your God.

Don't be so sceptical, it's entirely plausible that an omnipotent being could decide, after an infinite amount of time, to create a whole universe just for human existence solely as a test which lasts on average for around 75 years, upon successful completion of which individuals are entered into paradise for infinity.

Edited by Laser Wave, 23 February 2008 - 04:37 AM.

[Gen]

The sheer arrogance of your post is outstanding.
You honestly think the almighty creator of the universe reaches down and cradles you safely home because you whispered a few platitudes under your breath, but he refuses to save the lives of terminally ill Christians every day?

If that helps you sleep at night, then whatever, but if it was truly the case, I'd be deeply concerned about the psychological state of your God.

Illness problem was caused by men, not god. As I said, god appears in the small things, he can guide us to a better life even in this world. He doesn't do the BIG things, we do them, he does the small but important things to guide us...
At laser wave, I never said that the universe was only for us
PS: Enjoy your life

EDIT: Now I just remembered about the Gaia Theory

Edited by Banhammer, 23 February 2008 - 06:10 AM.

[Amagius]

As I said, god appears in the small things, he can guide us to a better life even in this world.

All those small, miniscule things that human or probability is very capable of accomplishing is God's work. All those things that might require the ability of a god are ignored.

That's all I need to know. It's a grand philosophy.

[Waser Lave]

All those small, miniscule things that human or probability is very capable of accomplishing is God's work. All those things that might require the ability of a god are ignored.

That's all I need to know. It's a grand philosophy.

Exactly, no need to save millions of starving children so long as Banhammer gets home safely in time for his pizza...

[Gen]

All those small, miniscule things that human or probability is very capable of accomplishing is God's work. All those things that might require the ability of a god are ignored.

That's all I need to know. It's a grand philosophy.

Are you being ironic ?
About the pizza, was only an example, people experience miracles everyday, everytime. Being alive is one of them. These sick children, why they don't just die? They should be dead and so they could see the paradise! No. There may be a meaning in the fact that they're alive now, show us that men is imperfect and we may be wrong 90% of time. We have to open our eyes and do something. You say that all about god, but are you doing something to change the world? As a lot of people said, is all about faith, I believe a lot in god, I don't really believe in Hell, I believe on a god made of love that can guide us, and make our lifes better. Some say: "How can you prove god exist?" and other say "How can you prove god doesn't exist?". Religion is a very important thing in our life as it guides us to a better way of living...

EDIT: I speak for myself, I thought a million of times about thinking that god doesn't exist, but than he proven to me that he does, and he's here. I hope that he can prove to you either

Edited by Banhammer, 23 February 2008 - 08:26 AM.

[Sweeney]

Illness problem was caused by men, not god. As I said, god appears in the small things, he can guide us to a better life even in this world. He doesn't do the BIG things, we do them, he does the small but important things to guide us...
At laser wave, I never said that the universe was only for us
PS: Enjoy your life

EDIT: Now I just remembered about the Gaia Theory

Oh of course! Why didn't I realise?
Obviously the AIDs epidemic in Africa is the fault of humans! And cancer, well, that must be our fault too. It's so clear now.

At least people like Tetiel and Alias can think their beliefs through. I may not agree with them, but I can show them some respect, because it's clear that they have spent a while coming around to their beliefs.
You on the other hand seem completely incapable of thinking critically even within the framework of your own belief system.
It's people like you who blindly follow what they are told. People like you who campaign against the teaching of evolution. It is people like you who end up bombing abortion clinics because somewhere down the line, someone told you it was wrong.

[Gen]

Oh of course! Why didn't I realise?
Obviously the AIDs epidemic in Africa is the fault of humans! And cancer, well, that must be our fault too. It's so clear now.

At least people like Tetiel and Alias can think their beliefs through. I may not agree with them, but I can show them some respect, because it's clear that they have spent a while coming around to their beliefs.
You on the other hand seem completely incapable of thinking critically even within the framework of your own belief system.
It's people like you who blindly follow what they are told. People like you who campaign against the teaching of evolution. It is people like you who end up bombing abortion clinics because somewhere down the line, someone told you it was wrong.

I never stated that I believe in church at all. I have nothing agaisn't abortion, instead that I think that there's a life there. But in case of risk to the mom and the baby, or the baby is dead, abortion could save lifes. I believe in evolution either. But I also believe that there must be someone behind all this.