430 replies to this topic

[Milady]

wtfints71, on 04 September 2010 - 04:51 AM, said:

but it still worth the trouble isn't it?

i bet there's no regret in it though sometimes they can make you damn pissed off.

Yeah ofcourse Its just the way it is. Some people do think its all sunshine though, and they get totally overwelmed by it
Anyway, were going off topic a bit !

[Ziz]

IMO it should be permitted (before it becomes a human like-baby).
However I think it's just correct in extreme situation like someone raped or that.

I think that if you did a mistake, you should take the consecuences of your action.
But in some cases it's very hard, so just let the pregnant woman take the desition.
After all, she is the one who's gonna have the baby.

[Trichomes]

Earlier, I said I would elaborate, but I'm still feeling pretty lazy, so I'll let you guys read the little essay I wrote. Unfortunately, I don't remember where all of the statistics came from because we weren't required to submit a bibliography or include citations. They were taken from websites of varying standpoints, but I just want to use this to get my opinion on the matter across.

Spoiler

Since the 1973 Supreme Court decision in the trial of Roe v. Wade, abortion has been legal in the United States. Although 37 years have passed since this ruling, there remains ongoing controversy surrounding the topic. Pro-life activists argue that human life begins at the time of conception and that abortion is murder. Some even believe that women view abortion as an alternative to contraception. However, I believe that it is a woman’s right to do as she pleases with her body and that there are many legitimate reasons for a woman to have an abortion should she become pregnant, no matter the circumstances.

Planned Parenthood estimates that more than one out of three women in the United States has had an abortion by the time they are 45 years old. This number may seem high, but it reflects the number of women who feel as though abortion is their only option. Since the factors that constitute human life are subjective, it should be up to a woman to decide whether or not she feels abortion is ethical. Of course, there are alternatives to abortion, such as adoption, but it is still a woman’s right to choose whether or not to give away her baby. In fact, less than 3% of unmarried white women, and 2% of unmarried black women who give birth put their children up for adoption. These children often grow up in unstable homes because their mothers, who believe they are doing what is best for their children, cannot provide for them. In addition to saving a child from going through hardships his or her entire life, abortion can greatly improve the chances of a teenager continuing her education. Only one-third of teen mothers receive a high school diploma and nearly 80% of unmarried teen mothers end up on welfare.

It is not always a woman’s irresponsibility that leads to an unwanted pregnancy. Most women do not feel as if abortion is a form of contraception, and only 8% of women who have had an abortion were not using any form of birth control at the time of conception. In some cases, unwanted pregnancy is forced by rape or incest. In these cases, there may be psychological harm to the victim, and she may be too afraid to seek help. Since the morning-after pill is only effective when used within three days of intercourse, abortion may be the only option for women who are traumatized and in no emotional state to raise a child.

Health complications can also leave a woman with the difficult decision of whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term or to have an abortion. In rape cases, there is a possibility of STDs being contracted and passed onto the child, and these women may choose to terminate the pregnancy. Similarly, when incest occurs, it is possible for a child to suffer genetic mutations, and many women are not equipped to take on the burden of raising a child with special needs. This applies to all women with high-risk pregnancies, including those with HIV/AIDS, or carriers of life-altering heredity diseases. Additionally, contrary to popular belief, medical abortions result in less than 0.5% risk of serious complications, and almost never interfere with a woman’s ability to bear children in the future.

Most controversial of all is the topic of partial-birth abortion, or an abortion performed during the second or third trimester. Although the medical procedure known as intact dilation and extraction was banned in 2003, and the majority of Americans, including myself, consider this procedure unethical, widespread controversy still surrounds the issue. It is important to know, however, that only 12% of abortions occur after the first trimester. Regardless of when or why a woman chooses to terminate a pregnancy, abortion should remain a legal option to women in all cases.

Edited by Trichomes, 16 March 2011 - 06:02 AM.

[Lallard]

Quote

It is not always a woman’s irresponsibility that leads to an unwanted pregnancy. Most women do not feel as if abortion is a form of contraception, and only 8% of women who have had an abortion were not using any form of birth control at the time of conception. In some cases, unwanted pregnancy is forced by rape or incest. In these cases, there may be psychological harm to the victim, and she may be too afraid to seek help. Since the morning-after pill is only effective when used within three days of intercourse, abortion may be the only option for women who are traumatized and in no emotional state to raise a child.

Alright, one thing that seems to be quite disturbing is the general statistic that about <10% of abortions are due to health risks to the pregnant woman AND rape-induced pregnancy. Aside from that we could say that a huge portion of it is merely due to the couple (or even in some cases the mother as the sole decider) deciding not to want to have a baby.


The only thing that bothers me regarding this abortion issue is the possible idea that health insurances may (someday) cover abortions. I mean, today we do have that if the cause of pregnancy is proven to be from the woman being raped or if it's going to be a health risk.

[Trichomes]

Well, that's why I tried not to make any overstatements. When it comes down to it, I still think it should be a woman's right to choose whether or not to have an abortion, and most of the time, there are other options. Because there are those exceptions, though, even if it's less than 10% of all cases, I think abortion needs to remain an option. We can't just allow certain women to have abortions for certain reasons, because it can be difficult to prove whether or not someone is telling the truth. Rape kits are only reliable about 72 hours after the assault occurs. However, as far as health insurance goes...if my birth control isn't covered, abortion certainly shouldn't be covered either, unless the pregnancy is the result of rape, or the woman's health is at risk.

Edited by Trichomes, 04 September 2010 - 09:56 AM.

[Lineage]

I think abortion is perfectly fine.. Saying that some dumbass who can't keep her legs shut isn't abusing the system and just keeps continually having abortions instead of say, using some form of birth control anyway.

Having a kid is going to affect you the rest of your life, whether you want it to or not. I plan on going places with my life and with working full-time, going to school full-time, and owning two dogs and two cats, my life would go to shambles if a baby got thrown into the loop. Can't afford it, don't have the time to care for it nor could I really make the time to care for it because I'm working the absolute minimum I can already in order to keep on top of college and being able to pay our mortgage.

I would much rather see someone have their baby aborted than drop out of highschool/college and essentially end up not going anywhere with their life.

[fr333k]

I'm tossing up against whether I'm for, or against abortion. It gives women rights, which I'm against; but I'm all for killing innocent babies

[Sweeney]

In terms of consciousness and suffering, there is no practical difference between using a condom, or having an early-term abortion.

In fact, the only person it's worse for, is the mother.

[Ziz]

Lineage, on 04 September 2010 - 12:04 PM, said:

I think abortion is perfectly fine.. Saying that some dumbass who can't keep her legs shut isn't abusing the system and just keeps continually having abortions instead of say, using some form of birth control anyway.

Having a kid is going to affect you the rest of your life, whether you want it to or not. I plan on going places with my life and with working full-time, going to school full-time, and owning two dogs and two cats, my life would go to shambles if a baby got thrown into the loop. Can't afford it, don't have the time to care for it nor could I really make the time to care for it because I'm working the absolute minimum I can already in order to keep on top of college and being able to pay our mortgage.

I would much rather see someone have their baby aborted than drop out of highschool/college and essentially end up not going anywhere with their life.

Yeah, It should be theyr decition.
Lets just hope they do not to abuse and use that right correctly all the time.

[Trichomes]

Cody, on 04 September 2010 - 12:43 PM, said:

I would much rather people use a cheap and effective form of contraception and not have this problem. I mean... are we really so lazy of humans now that we can't forgo a little increased stimulation to save the emotional, monetary, and moral consequences that come from abortion? I just don't understand how in the past when we were nomadic that we had no problem maintaining population size... and the only birth control then was abstinence/coitus interupptus... I guess when your community is so small that you are held to your actions more closely. It just makes me truly saddened for humanity when we can't throw out a little more pleasure to effectively eliminate risks of pregnancy. It's just beyond me.

But what if your contraceptives fail? Even if you are using a condom AND your partner is on birth control, and maybe even a third method is used, there is a very small chance that she could still get that pregnant. In that case, are you willing to bring an unwanted child into the world? Even if you chose adoption, she would still have to go through the discomfort and pain of pregnancy and labor. I mean, even if you were obviously doing everything possible to prevent pregnancy from occurring, and I would consider that pretty responsible, it could still happen. Some people just aren't ready to handle that huge responsibility.

I also think population control in the past had a lot to do with the much higher infant mortality rate.

[Trichomes]

I never said anything about high school or college. A person of any age could find themselves in this situation, and it doesn't necessarily have to be about financial difficulty either.

I don't believe things are "meant to happen," so I'm not sure I'd be so quick to dismiss abortion as a possibility if I was doing everything I possibly could not to get pregnant. You can't just expect people not to have sex, responsibly, if they don't want to be parents. That's just unfair.

[Ali]

Trichomes, on 04 September 2010 - 01:32 PM, said:

A person of any age could find themselves in this situation, and it doesn't necessarily have to be about financial difficulty either.

This. I'm 21, in a far more financially stable situation than anyone else of my age that I know, more than capable of supporting a child but it just wouldn't be an option for me. Mine and my husband's careers just won't allow us to raise a child while we both work and I'd rather have an abortion than raise a miserable child whose parents don't have enough time for it.

And I certainly don't believe any child is fated to be if it gets past multiple methods of birth control. Things with only tiny chances of occurring, happen. That's why they're not impossible.

[Sweeney]

kigger, on 04 September 2010 - 02:39 PM, said:

Unfair? I don't mean to be cliche but life is unfair! Ultimately if you do not want to have children and are scared that you will have children despite taking precautions, than don't have sex. That's not unfair, it's logical.

Ultimately, if you don't want to get hit by a car, don't walk outside.

Kindly take your reductio ad absurdum and shove them in the orifice of your choice.

[Sweeney]

Cody, on 04 September 2010 - 03:12 PM, said:

I don't think that's reductio ad absurdum... It's like if you don't wanna get hit my a car... look both ways when you cross the street, wear a helmet if you're on a bike, be aware of your surroundings, drive defensively. Abortion in your simile would be walk willy nilly wherever you want and if you do get hit by a car, just have the car demolished and go to the hospital.

There shouldn't be a need to go to the hospital because you shouldn't have been playing in the street without protection anyways.

No, that's not what I am saying, nor what he is saying.
He said "Ultimately, if you don't want a child, don't have sex".

He is the one that is ignoring safety precautions, and the like, not me.

[Ali]

Cody, on 04 September 2010 - 03:12 PM, said:

I don't think that's reductio ad absurdum... It's like if you don't wanna get hit my a car... look both ways when you cross the street, wear a helmet if you're on a bike, be aware of your surroundings, drive defensively. Abortion in your simile would be walk willy nilly wherever you want and if you do get hit by a car, just have the car demolished and go to the hospital.

There shouldn't be a need to go to the hospital because you shouldn't have been playing in the street without protection anyways.

Condoms are what...98% effective when used perfectly in clinical trials? The statistics for typical use are far far lower but even at best that's still a 2% failure rate. Hormonal contraception is generally far more successful but still, not perfect and there are a large number of women for whom it just isn't suitable.

Ultimately, wearing a helmet greatly reduces your chance of smashing your skull, it won't guarantee it though. Things that have a ridiculously small chance of happening, happen. Odds are that eventually they have to.

[Ali]

Cody, on 04 September 2010 - 03:29 PM, said:

oh of course! But if you couple condoms with birth control you are really, really reducing the risks.

Still going to get someone...And what about all the people who don't have birth control as an option?

I wish doctors were more willing to consider sterilisation at a younger age.

[Sweeney]

kigger, on 04 September 2010 - 11:56 AM, said:

As I stated before in cases of rape then there should be the option for them or if the woman has serious health concerns, in any other case there shouldn't even be an option.

Sorry, Cody, but that's not what he/she/it said.

[Sweeney]

Cody, on 04 September 2010 - 03:37 PM, said:

that was her agreeing that abortion should exist under x context. The other circumstances in which it shouldn't be permitted would fall into that moral variability range.

Fine.

But I don't think that "No, you must carry this baby for nine months whether you want it or not" comes under the heading of "moral" in any way.

[Sweeney]

Cody, on 04 September 2010 - 03:49 PM, said:

LOL. perhaps not... but the argument is that "You must not kill others, even if they haven't been born yet"... and not killing people would fall under morality.

Other what?
Other non-sentient bundles of cells?

Makes the fight against cancer a little redundant...

[Sweeney]

Cody, on 04 September 2010 - 03:53 PM, said:

LOL! you're hilarious. It really all just varies dependent upon when the fetus becomes "alive." By my definition, everything is alive... except maybe dark matter... but that's another story entirely. So for my abortion level when does life start, I guess I think that once there is a beating heart, it constitutes as alive to me.

That doesn't make sense.
You can't live without killing -something-, and if everything is just as "alive" as everything else, then you may as well be allowed to kill anything.

[Elle]

Personally im completely against abortion, but at the same time, there are obviously situations where people dont have much of a choice.
And anyway, if it was made illegal, as if there would be those dodgy side street clinics that do it anyway?