70 replies to this topic

[anbeezy]

Anbeezy, instead of thinking of them as pastors etc, just think of them as someone like you, then would you think in their right mind's would they still burn it to prove a point?

Oh I know that. I was just pointing out that because of events like this, people generalize in all kinds of cases. I wasn't trying to disregard anyone else. I do agree with you; no one should do this.

[Jake]

No one knowing the consequences should do this, however what if someone who was raised somehow not knowing anything about muslims came across this book and used it as kindling in a camp fire? It's a fooking book.

[Ladida]

No one knowing the consequences should do this, however what if someone who was raised somehow not knowing anything about muslims came across this book and used it as kindling in a camp fire? It's a fooking book.

Someone would have to be living under a rock to not know anything about Muslims in this day and age.. Or living in a community which isn't diverse, and has no access to television or internet. There is no excuse for ignorance anymore. I'm an atheist, but I know about the different religions. I wouldn't burn any of their books, simply because I respect people enough to respect the things they hold dear.

Ignorance is not the reason this guy had the book burnt. His motive was to enrage the people who love that book. And that is where the problem lies.

[Waser Lave]

Someone would have to be living under a rock to not know anything about Muslims in this day and age.. Or living in a community which isn't diverse, and has no access to television or internet. There is no excuse for ignorance anymore. I'm an atheist, but I know about the different religions. I wouldn't burn any of their books, simply because I respect people enough to respect the things they hold dear.

Ignorance is not the reason this guy had the book burnt. His motive was to enrage the people who love that book. And that is where the problem lies.

If I was short on kindling I'd have no problems at all in burning a Koran, Bible or any other non-scarce book.

[Jake]

Someone would have to be living under a rock to not know anything about Muslims in this day and age.. Or living in a community which isn't diverse, and has no access to television or internet. There is no excuse for ignorance anymore. I'm an atheist, but I know about the different religions. I wouldn't burn any of their books, simply because I respect people enough to respect the things they hold dear.

Ignorance is not the reason this guy had the book burnt. His motive was to enrage the people who love that book. And that is where the problem lies.

A lot of the people living in the northern most parts of my country may not have access to internet or television. And ignorance is bliss. I would burn any of their books if I was given money or I wanted to use it for a fire. I understand you, but I don't respect this thing they hold dear because in my opinion, it is stupid.

Ignorance is indeed not the reason why this pastor burnt the book. His motive and reasoning was that of the muslims who are protesting the streets and killing innocent people, and that is they are fucked up in the head. The problem lies in mental problems and believing in a religion too much.

[Ladida]

A lot of the people living in the northern most parts of my country may not have access to internet or television. And ignorance is bliss. I would burn any of their books if I was given money or I wanted to use it for a fire. I understand you, but I don't respect this thing they hold dear because in my opinion, it is stupid.

Ignorance is indeed not the reason why this pastor burnt the book. His motive and reasoning was that of the muslims who are protesting the streets and killing innocent people, and that is they are fucked up in the head. The problem lies in mental problems and believing in a religion too much.

From what has been reported so far, they Muslims have killed even more people in retaliation. So his reasoning to burn the book, knowing it would cause more violence, is fundamentally unsound. He's just made everything worse. America doesn't need more anger aimed at them, especially from Muslims who're willing to die at the drop of a hat.

Respecting things that other people respect is not stupid. Let's use an example. Someone respects their mother. His friend decides that he doesn't need to respect that kid's mother, because that's stupid. A fight ensues and someone gets stabbed to death. That's not exactly the way to keep the peace. It doesn't hurt you to respect them, but if that's too much to ask, just leave them alone.

[Melchoire]

The true message of any religion should be kept in your heart and inextinguishable by any human force.

[Lucian]

Exactly. That's why I don't see the big deal. And you shouldn't get asshurt and kill lots of people if you think the words in the book have some sort of meaning to you. They are, in the end, just words printed in ink in a book. That is what got burned.

This is a pretty shallow statement. To the people of Islam the Qur'an is more than a book with printed words. To them it is Allah inspired. A testimony to their faith. People devote their whole lives to Islam. The Qur'an is part of their lifestyle.

[Ladida]

If I was short on kindling I'd have no problems at all in burning a Koran, Bible or any other non-scarce book.

That's for survival You're not trying to antagonize an entire set of followers. They'd probably still be pissed as Hell, but the motive is harmless.

[Seaner]

Respecting things that other people respect is not stupid. Let's use an example. Someone respects their mother. His friend decides that he doesn't need to respect that kid's mother, because that's stupid. A fight ensues and someone gets stabbed to death. That's not exactly the way to keep the peace. It doesn't hurt you to respect them, but if that's too much to ask, just leave them alone.

Yes well the person that did the stabbing would be punished, and most would agree that punishment is a reasonable outcome.

But in the name of multiculturalism, there are a lot of people who tolerate the unacceptable behavior some Muslims exhibit.

[Jake]

From what has been reported so far, they Muslims have killed even more people in retaliation. So his reasoning to burn the book, knowing it would cause more violence, is fundamentally unsound. He's just made everything worse. America doesn't need more anger aimed at them, especially from Muslims who're willing to die at the drop of a hat.

Respecting things that other people respect is not stupid. Let's use an example. Someone respects their mother. His friend decides that he doesn't need to respect that kid's mother, because that's stupid. A fight ensues and someone gets stabbed to death. That's not exactly the way to keep the peace. It doesn't hurt you to respect them, but if that's too much to ask, just leave them alone.

I doubt he realised that violence would have escalated from him burning the book. I'm assuming he hates muslims but is very patriotic in a way that most of us would consider wrong. If he knew his countrymen would have been put in more danger because of this, he would not have burned the book. I am not taking away the likely possibility that he was told this many times though, which we can all probably assume he was. Like I said, he is a terrible religious fanatic and most likely has mental problems.

That example is far from being realistic and far from being reasonable in this situation. I have no reason to respect a religion that has tons of violence based solely on the stupid beliefs of these people. All it takes is one look at some sort of graph that can point out that more religion = more poverty etc. bad shit. Religion is sooo yesterday. You can go to a sunday gathering or participate in some sort of church ran soup kitchen but when religion affects daily life, that is when it is wrong.

[ShadowLink64]

This is a pretty shallow statement. To the people of Islam the Qur'an is more than a book with printed words. To them it is Allah inspired. A testimony to their faith. People devote their whole lives to Islam. The Qur'an is part of their lifestyle.

You might have missed my point. I am saying that it's a physical object that they burned, and it resulted in people getting killed. Islam itself killed because it lives on in other copies of the book. I don't think an object is in any way equitable to human life.

[Ladida]

I doubt he realised that violence would have escalated from him burning the book.

http://seeker401.wor...-koran-burning/
http://en.rian.ru/wo.../160536767.html
http://www.foxnews.c...ence-americans/

Oh he knew all right. And yes, all those articles are from 2010, which was *ahem* last year.

Edited by Ladida, 11 April 2011 - 04:14 PM.

[AyoForYayo]

Exactly. That's why I don't see the big deal. And you shouldn't get asshurt and kill lots of people if you think the words in the book have some sort of meaning to you. They are, in the end, just words printed in ink in a book. That is what got burned.

Not that I'm justifying it or anything, but a lot of people don't see it as "just a book"

Gotta see the other side...

[Jake]

http://seeker401.wor...-koran-burning/
http://en.rian.ru/wo.../160536767.html
http://www.foxnews.c...ence-americans/

Oh he knew all right. And yes, all those articles are from 2010, which was *ahem* last year.

First article quote:

Though a Florida pastor called off his plans to burn the Muslim holy book, the channel showed footage of a different man destroying a Quran.

Anyways, so we prove there are psychos in every country who will risk lives, although if the blame were really to be put on the pastor, he would obviously have to serve those life sentences or death. However it works in the US. Regardless, Christians etc. would not do the same in regard. It seems you are trying to defend the Islam response, where I can see no justice to it.

Not that I'm justifying it or anything, but a lot of people don't see it as "just a book"

Gotta see the other side...

Obviously SL is aware of this. What he is saying plain and simple, and what I agree with, is the fact that it is just a book. Like I said, compare the muslims to the rest of the world. Relatively at ease compared to them BECAUSE they are not third world countries and they don't use religion to solve everything.

[Waser Lave]

Not that I'm justifying it or anything, but a lot of people don't see it as "just a book"

Gotta see the other side...

It doesn't really matter how they see it, at the end of the day it is just a bundle of paper with ink on it, it wasn't printed on Muhammad's personal printing press.

[Lucian]

At the end of the day it does matter. You're looking at this one-sided when views on the Quran are so subjective. Because at the end of the day what is to you is not the same to someone else.

[Ladida]

At the end of the day it does matter. You're looking at this one-sided when views on the Quran are so subjective. Because at the end of the day what is to you is not the same to someone else.

+1

It seems you are trying to defend the Islam response, where I can see no justice to it.

Would you stick your hand in a lion's mouth and not expect to lose an hand? People should just leave them alone, stop meddling with their affairs, and stop grouping Muslims into one terrorist bunch, because generalizing never does any good. It's unrealistic to think you can provoke a group of people, and not expect a backlash. There was that Virginia Tech guy, provoked to Hell and back, and guess what? He snapped. He killed people who never did a thing to him, but that's what happens when you piss people off beyond what they can take. For the Muslims, it's much easier to go nuts because they have their own fanatics telling them to, for the sake of their religion. I knew a Muslim who said the American who named that teddybear Mohamed should be whipped or executed for such sacrilege. I didn't understand the horrendously messed up line of thinking there. Does that inspire me to go to a Muslim country and "tame the heathens"? Absolutely not. I'm staying the Hell away from the Middle East. Muslims don't come knocking at my door preaching their religion. Muslims actually don't bother me at all. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. It's not that hard to grasp that concept.

[Sweeney]

At the end of the day it does matter. You're looking at this one-sided when views on the Quran are so subjective. Because at the end of the day what is to you is not the same to someone else.

It matters, but not for the reason you think it does.

At the point where someone values the wellbeing of a mass-produced book over the life of a human being, something is fundamentally wrong with the way they view the world.

A far better, and more powerful, response to the burning of a koran would be to shrug it off, and belittle the intolerant little bigot who attempted to incite your vengeance.
Instead, by bowing to the pressure he created in that act, the muslim community has effectively vindicated his actions; at least in the eyes of those who were already leaning to that perspective.

I knew a Muslim who said the American who named that teddybear Mohamed should be whipped or executed for such sacrilege. I didn't understand the horrendously messed up line of thinking there. Does that inspire me to go to a Muslim country and "tame the heathens"? Absolutely not. I'm staying the Hell away from the Middle East. Muslims don't come knocking at my door preaching their religion. Muslims actually don't bother me at all. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. It's not that hard to grasp that concept.

What about when you can't stand their ridiculous practises anymore?
(Note here that I'm not talking about the Koran-burning pastor. I'm aware his motives were anything but pure.)

What about when girls are being smuggled out of the UK to the Middle East to have their genitalia sawn off and sewn up?
What about when tourists or foreign nationals are being killed for blasphemy? Or immodesty?

At what point do you decide to stand up and speak out? Never?
Then you're worse than the people who commit the crimes to begin with.

[softboiled]

I
What about when you can't stand their ridiculous practises anymore?
(Note here that I'm not talking about the Koran-burning pastor. I'm aware his motives were anything but pure.)

What about when girls are being smuggled out of the UK to the Middle East to have their genitalia sawn off and sewn up?
What about when tourists or foreign nationals are being killed for blasphemy? Or immodesty?

At what point do you decide to stand up and speak out? Never?
Then you're worse than the people who commit the crimes to begin with.

whaaaaaat
these are all terrible things that happen far too often, but none of them are acceptable muslim practises according to the koran.

(just looked up female circumsision and apparently it's a practise that predates islam? SO YOU CAN'T BLAME US FOR THAT WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT WE HAVE NOTHING AGAINST ANY FEMALE BITS THEY ARE AWESOME.)

i think people need to understand that all religions are pretty much equally ridiculous and that the koran doesn't actually encourage us to come on over and eat your babies - there will always be extremists, and i don't think they represent the majority of muslims. also: the middle east is great, as long as it's a reasonably wealthy country! i promise no one will circumsize you in dubai.

Edited by softboiled, 15 April 2011 - 02:33 AM.

[Sweeney]

whaaaaaat
these are all terrible things that happen far too often, but none of them are acceptable muslim practises according to the koran.

(just looked up female circumsision and apparently it's a practise that predates islam? SO YOU CAN'T BLAME US FOR THAT WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT WE HAVE NOTHING AGAINST ANY FEMALE BITS THEY ARE AWESOME.)

i think people need to understand that all religions are pretty much equally ridiculous and that the koran doesn't actually encourage us to come on over and eat your babies - there will always be extremists, and i don't think they represent the majority of muslims. also: the middle east is great, as long as it's a reasonably wealthy country! i promise no one will circumsize you in dubai.

I was talking generally, not specifically about Islam.

Even if these things are the actions of an extremist minority, it doesn't excuse the inaction of the moderate majority. Nor does it make their beliefs any less absurd.

PS. Simply because a practise predates a particular religion does not mean that religion has not adopted it, even if only in fringe societies.

[Ladida]

What about when you can't stand their ridiculous practises anymore?
(Note here that I'm not talking about the Koran-burning pastor. I'm aware his motives were anything but pure.)

What about when girls are being smuggled out of the UK to the Middle East to have their genitalia sawn off and sewn up?
What about when tourists or foreign nationals are being killed for blasphemy? Or immodesty?

At what point do you decide to stand up and speak out? Never?
Then you're worse than the people who commit the crimes to begin with.

Whoa there, this is completely different territory. My points were about not antagonizing a certain religious group. I agree that Middle Eastern practices when it comes to blasphemy and immodesty are ridiculous beyond measure, but as Muslims have pointed out, much of that isn't in their religion, and it's more of a case of men subjugating women. I never understood the fascination tourists have to visit parts of the world where they're not welcome, but maybe they're in it for the thrill. It's unfair of course to expect people not to travel where ever they want, but you need to look out for your own safety as well. Sure, I could walk down a dark alley in the middle of the night, but that would be foolish since I know the dangers. The main thing here for tourists is to educate themselves about the country and their culture, and not go there for their own sakes if they can't abide by it. The country will no doubt stand by their rules, and there's not much outsiders can do to change it. I have a friend who used to live in Saudi Arabia, his mom and sister were not allowed out of the house without him or his father, the women had to wear burqas or niqabs. The ladies could have refused, and been arrested, but no one would bat an eyelid since they were living in a country that enforced such restrictions on them. The West should be wild about such a situation, but you don't hear about it until it happens to someone going abroad for an exotic vacation. As I said, it's unfair to basically be banned from a certain part of the world, but it's in your best interests to stay away. Two American tourists are still in jail in Iran for hiking I believe. Is it really worth it?

Good grief, why are people being smuggled out of the UK for that?! I thought people there would be safe.. That's just sick. Beyond sick.

Something like forced mutilation however, is not something that should be condoned in any part of the world. There are of course, practices that outrage everyone's senses. Absolutely you should speak up, form groups that raise awareness and fight to protect the potential victims, provide help for the people who have become victims of such brutal practices. But this is leading far away from the purpose of the thread, and the purpose of the response you'd replied to, which was to simply not aggravate a certain set of people, just because you feel their love for their epic work of fiction is ridiculous.

Even if these things are the actions of an extremist minority, it doesn't excuse the inaction of the moderate majority. Nor does it make their beliefs any less absurd.

It does seem that the majority does actually agree with the extremists.. But either they agree, or are scared that they'll be wiped out by the extremists if they raise their voices (I'm leaning towards this one). They really don't have the support of anyone, other than armchair activists behind computers who know nothing about what it's like to live under such conditions.

Any religion is absurd, but there's no point in telling the followers that. I know fanatic Christians, Hindus (who really believes in all those Gods and Goddesses anyway?), and apparently one Muslim. I'd totally get beaten down if I told any of them anything about why their beliefs are downright ridiculous. So, I keep my mouth shut and avoid that topic with them and everything's hunky dory. Or I could start a huge argument and no one would be happy.

WE HAVE NOTHING AGAINST ANY FEMALE BITS THEY ARE AWESOME.

^Made me lol The people who do crap like that are the ones trying to turn women into objects, they are they ones telling women that women are inferior, that women are only here to serve men. All religions subjugate women to an extent, but it's made even worse when the men create their own interpretations to further dominate and control the women.

[ShadowLink64]

It matters, but not for the reason you think it does.

At the point where someone values the wellbeing of a mass-produced book over the life of a human being, something is fundamentally wrong with the way they view the world.

A far better, and more powerful, response to the burning of a koran would be to shrug it off, and belittle the intolerant little bigot who attempted to incite your vengeance.
Instead, by bowing to the pressure he created in that act, the muslim community has effectively vindicated his actions; at least in the eyes of those who were already leaning to that perspective.

Glad Laser Wave and Sweeney saw my point.

It's not that I don't think they view the book as unimportant. I'm saying the response was completely disproportionate, and in my opinion, wrong. All they did was vindicate the pastor's act of burning the book. It's my opinion, so you can leave it be now.

[esilim]

I'm not an intolerant psychopath, and to prove it, i'm gonna blow you the #$%#$ up!

[Sweeney]

but as Muslims have pointed out, much of that isn't in their religion

Welcome to the No True Scotsman fallacy.