22 replies to this topic

[TamerVirus]

http://www.we-make-m...unconscious.php

"'Farming the Unconscious' proposes an alternative way of growing chickens for food: embedding them into a matrix. Free from cruelty, the chickens are unconscious, and free of pain and disease. They are well fed, healthy, and stress free because they are kept out of cages (and not awake) thus responding to ethical arguments against factory farming."
....FOR SCIENCE!.......Or FOR ART!... either way, its an interesting, if tad creepy, read

Edited by TamerVirus, 24 February 2012 - 07:13 PM.

[Keil]

That is probably the scariest real thing I've ever seen. I can totally see humans in those matrices someday for something like fighting wars.

I'm apathetic towards animal rights for the most part, but after seeing those matrices, I almost feel compelled to join PETA. I'd rather have chickens grown being fattened up in a farm then brutally slaughtered than to never let them see real sunlight or interact with other chickens.

[iargue]

That is probably the scariest real thing I've ever seen. I can totally see humans in those matrices someday for something like fighting wars.

I'm apathetic towards animal rights for the most part, but after seeing those matrices, I almost feel compelled to join PETA. I'd rather have chickens grown being fattened up in a farm then brutally slaughtered than to never let them see real sunlight or interact with other chickens.

This is the biggest problem with the world. You fucking animal lovers will never be happy until animals are given more rights then humans, and then you'll be against that most likely. You will continue to protest simply for the sake of FUCKING PROTESTING.

[Leaf]

The Mini Matrix
Featuring: NEO The Chicken...
Coming sometime 2013

[Keil]

This is the biggest problem with the world. You fucking animal lovers will never be happy until animals are given more rights then humans, and then you'll be against that most likely. You will continue to protest simply for the sake of FUCKING PROTESTING.

I'm sorry for being a fucking animal lover (to some extent), but the cursing towards other people can be toned down a bit. I think people should just accept that some people like to "fucking protest" about anything while other people like to outwardly complain about others for doing what they do. The world is full of diverse people.

[TamerVirus]

But they say that this is much more humane to the chicken compared to leaving them holed up in some dank crowded shed

[Keil]

But they say that this is much more humane to the chicken compared to leaving them holed up in some dank crowded shed

Dank Crowded Shed with complete consciousness vs. Dark Mechanic Matrix with no consciousness.

Ethics is really tricky because there is no empirical set of rules to abide by (rules that even come close can still be easily debated).

Putting ethics aside, I wonder how the chicken's taste/composition will change by this method. I remember reading that for any terrestrial organism, sunlight and movement affects the chemical balance. If the method is effective in producing quality chickens that abides the food and drug association's standards for safe eating, then I'd be fine with it.

[Bone]

This is the biggest problem with the world. You fucking animal lovers will never be happy until animals are given more rights then humans, and then you'll be against that most likely. You will continue to protest simply for the sake of FUCKING PROTESTING.

Nailed it. How could we all have been so ignorant, and not seen that Keil is the poison that corrupts the earth?!













Ethically, I don't see a huge difference between current methods and this proposed method. My biggest concern would be any difference in quality/taste, and the feasibility of implementing this on the scale that current factory farms operate at.

[Adina]

This is the biggest problem with the world. You fucking animal lovers will never be happy until animals are given more rights then humans, and then you'll be against that most likely. You will continue to protest simply for the sake of FUCKING PROTESTING.

What's wrong with you?
You seem damaged and rather bitter.

No one asked for animals to have more rights than humans. I'm sure anyone who is a decent human being will realize that animals DO feel pain, and just because they don't understand what is going on does not mean they are less deserving of our respect. They are creatures, just as much as we are, and we were pretty clueless as well before we evolved. Not as clueless as chickens, but that's irrelevant. Maybe you don't care that you're putting chicken in your mouth that at one point couldn't stand on it's own two legs, who was stuck in small cages with many others and who have never taken two steps in their short, tortured lives but I do.

I care about animals and birds, but I am not a protestor, nor have I become a vegetarian. I simply care without causing a riot, and people like you attempt to make people like me feel guilty for showing human characteristics such as compassion, which some of us clearly lack. -cough-

Attempting to stick to the topic, I have to say that I'm not quite sure how I feel about that. Is keeping chicken's brains as a clean slate better than mentally exhausting them? Who knows what effects that could have. Then again, everything seems to have a negative effect these days.

Edited by Adina, 23 February 2012 - 08:00 PM.

[Bone]

What's wrong with you?
You seem damaged and rather bitter.

No one asked for animals to have more rights than humans. I'm sure anyone who is a decent human being will realize that animals DO feel pain, and just because they don't understand what is going on does not mean they are less deserving of our respect. They are creatures, just as much as we are, and we were pretty clueless as well before we evolved. Not as clueless as chickens, but that's irrelevant. Maybe you don't care that you're putting chicken in your mouth that at one point couldn't stand on it's own two legs, who was stuck in small cages with many others and who have never taken two steps in their short, tortured lives but I do.

I care about animals and birds, but I am not a protestor, nor have I become a vegetarian. I simply care without causing a riot, and people like you attempt to make people like me feel guilty for showing human characteristics such as compassion, which some of us clearly lack. -cough-

Attempting to stick to the topic, I have to say that I'm not quite sure how I feel about that. Is keeping chicken's brains as a clean slate better than mentally exhausting them? Who knows what effects that could have. Then again, everything seems to have a negative effect these days.

I don't mean to disparage, but don't waste your time trying to use logic on him again.

[Nymh]

Ok to address the subtitle of this thread, this is not "science," this is an architecture class project of a student at an art college. Obviously it is quite provocative but that was exactly the point. By proposing an alternative method to raise the millions of chicken (chickens? anyway) that we kill for food each year, it sheds light on the inhumane conditions that we have them in now. And it makes you wonder, which is worse?

There is one thing that he said which pretty much solidifies for me that this, while an interesting spin on livestock as "crops" instead of "animals," is not a viable option for poultry production at least without some major revamping:

Earlier in the project I was proposing the chickens would be rendered unconscious, or desensitized by complete removal of the head but this has since been revised. Desensitisation will be achieved by a surgical incision that separates the animal's neocortex, responsible for sensory perceptions, and its brain stem which controls its homeostatic functions. The head remains intact.

Performing these necessary neurological surgeries on thousands of chickens (it must be "chickens," right?) would be costly and inefficient.

[Adina]

I don't mean to disparage, but don't waste your time trying to use logic on him again.

I honestly did not know his rudeness was this severe.

[Sweeney]

Performing these necessary neurological surgeries on thousands of chickens (it must be "chickens," right?) would be costly and inefficient.

Genetic engineering to prevent the development of most of the brain would seem viable.

[frostz]

No one asked for animals to have more rights than humans. I'm sure anyone who is a decent human being will realize that animals DO feel pain, and just because they don't understand what is going on does not mean they are less deserving of our respect. They are creatures, just as much as we are, and we were pretty clueless as well before we evolved. Not as clueless as chickens, but that's irrelevant. Maybe you don't care that you're putting chicken in your mouth that at one point couldn't stand on it's own two legs, who was stuck in small cages with many others and who have never taken two steps in their short, tortured lives but I do.

I care about animals and birds, but I am not a protestor, nor have I become a vegetarian. I simply care without causing a riot, and people like you attempt to make people like me feel guilty for showing human characteristics such as compassion, which some of us clearly lack. -cough-

Attempting to stick to the topic, I have to say that I'm not quite sure how I feel about that. Is keeping chicken's brains as a clean slate better than mentally exhausting them? Who knows what effects that could have. Then again, everything seems to have a negative effect these days.

You talk about compassion and understanding the pain of animals. So therefore would it not be better to lobotomize the chickens as stated in the article and grow them that way, rather than having them conscious in a condition where

Article

Broiler chickens spend their 6-7week lives in windowless sheds, each containing around 40,000 birds. They are selectively bred to grow faster than they would naturally which often causes skeletal problems and lameness. Many die because their hearts and lungs cannot keep up with their rapid growth

I understand that the article is about some art project, but i think that there's nothing wrong with growing chickens that way. Its about the equivalent of a tree that produces meat fruit. Without a brain (lobotomy or head removal was proposed in the article) the animal is as good as dead anyway, they won't feel anything.

Its more "cruel" to keep them conscious in the above stated environment for their entire lives and then killing them, than to "kill" them early and then hooking their bodies up to life support and growing them till they are ready for harvest.

[zandra]

I would agree, a lobotomy sounds better being unconscious of the suffering rather then being conscious of it.
Remember, the argument here isn't whether the chicken should be free-range or mass produced.
It is already on the assumption that it is mass produced(because it is the profitable thing to do).
If so, would you rather the chicken know that is is suffering or not know. (Personally, i would turn vegan if it happens)
The concept is harsh though, it makes us think of how far are we willing to go just to have meat on the table.


Off-Topic: Hi Frostz, didn't see you for quite some time. (ever since you finish rushing to advance) Glad to see you back =)

[frostz]

I would agree, a lobotomy sounds better being unconscious of the suffering rather then being conscious of it.
Remember, the argument here isn't whether the chicken should be free-range or mass produced.
It is already on the assumption that it is mass produced(because it is the profitable thing to do).
If so, would you rather the chicken know that is is suffering or not know. (Personally, i would turn vegan if it happens)
The concept is harsh though, it makes us think of how far are we willing to go just to have meat on the table.


Off-Topic: Hi Frostz, didn't see you for quite some time. (ever since you finish rushing to advance) Glad to see you back =)

Personally in these types of discussions i feel that people should put themselves in the place of the animal and sort of ask themselves something along the lines of,

If i were born for the sole purpose of being processed in the slaughter house, would i want to be raised and fattened up conscious and suffering or would i rather have them lobotomize me the moment i was born so i wouldn't have to go through all that trauma (being raised in a cage smaller than me etc). [everyone going vegan and setting all the chickens free is not an option of course]

going by that imo its pretty obvious which method is more "humane" (-lobotomized and unconscious even if the animal ends up growing in some kinda test tube. If they aren't suffering, and no longer have a brain then there really isn't a problem. It's basically just doing the slaughter part first and the growing part second. Since the fact that they were born to be killed isn't going to change, and something that literally has no brain is essentially dead, then there is really no real issue with what you do with the body afterwards when you take those two points into consideration..)

also
hi, i never really left. I'm usually just lurking and looking for things i find interesting.

Edited by frostz, 24 February 2012 - 02:48 AM.

[Sida]

Personally in these types of discussions i feel that people should put themselves in the place of the animal and sort of ask themselves something along the lines of,

If i were born for the sole purpose of being processed in the slaughter house, would i want to be raised and fattened up conscious and suffering or would i rather have them lobotomize me the moment i was born so i wouldn't have to go through all that trauma (being raised in a cage smaller than me etc). [everyone going vegan and setting all the chickens free is not an option of course]

I don't agree with that. Firstly you're giving the chickens a human perception on the situation which alone is pointless. Secondly, by imagining yourself in their position you're no longer talking about whether animals should be kept in those conditions, but whether humans should, and applying your conclusion to the chicken scenario. In this case it's ok, but in other cases it can lead you to forget what these things are an alternative to, such as the "natural" method of dying - getting ripped to shreds by another animal and being eaten half-alive with guts hanging out..etc.

I think it's a great idea. Farming is going to happen regardless, and this is just another step to making it more humane.

[frostz]

I don't agree with that. Firstly you're giving the chickens a human perception on the situation which alone is pointless. Secondly, by imagining yourself in their position you're no longer talking about whether animals should be kept in those conditions, but whether humans should, and applying your conclusion to the chicken scenario. In this case it's ok, but in other cases it can lead you to forget what these things are an alternative to, such as the "natural" method of dying - getting ripped to shreds by another animal and being eaten half-alive with guts hanging out..etc.

I think it's a great idea. Farming is going to happen regardless, and this is just another step to making it more humane.

well since we are talking about the "humane treatment of animals", i think that it is necessary to put yourself in their shoes so that one can sympathize with and understand whether or not treating the animal in a certain way is more acceptable than another.

The animal in question must have some intrinsic worth, while less than a human is still enough for a person to think, "hey i don't think we should be treating them this way because they are suffering." One of the reasons that people think about the suffering of animals is because of the slipper slope thing where they feel that if its okay to do something to an animal then it might become okay to do something like that to a human as well in the future. And of course this train of thought has to begin with the person "imagining themselves in the place of the animal we are talking about.

I mean there are examples of this in this thread, for example

That is probably the scariest real thing I've ever seen. I can totally see humans in those matrices someday for something like fighting wars.

So its not entirely pointless to give the chickens a "human perception" on the situation by asking people to imagine themselves as the chicken. By doing this it helps people to sympathize with them, which is what being humane ultimately means. Otherwise whats the point of being humane to animals right? i could just say something like oh, they are just animals i eat. I don't care how they are treated at all because they are in essence nothing but meat that is going to end up on my plate anyway. I feel nothing for them at all because they have nothing to do with me, are worth nothing to me, and i would never be in a situation like theirs and so I could care less about how they are treated before they end up in my stomach.

Edited by frostz, 24 February 2012 - 05:15 AM.

[kittycat]

By removing the cerebral cortex of the chicken, its sensory perceptions are removed. It can be produced in a denser condition while remaining alive, and oblivious.

This approaches the limitations to my lack of morality...

[Venusinfurs]

Fucking humans. Treating everything on this planet like it is worth less than shite. It's revolting things like factory farming, and the way we treat creatures - that are scientifically proven to have not only 'feelings' such as pain and fear, but complex social structures and emotions (yes, chickens) - that make me want to fling myself off a bridge.

Though I do agree - Unconcious chickens are preferable to factory farmed chickens. You do realise Keil, that the majority of chickens grown for meat are factory farmed - They don't see the light of day or interact socially with other birds anyway. Plus they get the mental and physical pain of squalid living conditions, mutilated feet from standing on mesh, all of the various health problems associated with overcrowding and lack of movement and daylight, not to mention the various growth stimulents that they are packed with, which frequently cause a bird's bones to break under it's own weight - also heart and lung issues as previously mentioned. Arghh. I shit you not, factory farms are worse than torture, and if you have ever seen one in person, you will struggle to sleep at night. Especially pork battery farms. They're serious nightmare material. So to spare an animal this experience, even if it is essentially taking away their life entirely, has to be a good thing.

Edited by Venusinfurs, 24 February 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[Keil]

Though I do agree - Unconcious chickens are preferable to factory farmed chickens. You do realise Keil, that the majority of chickens grown for meat are factory farmed - They don't see the light of day or interact socially with other birds anyway. Plus they get the mental and physical pain of squalid living conditions, mutilated feet from standing on mesh, all of the various health problems associated with overcrowding and lack of movement and daylight, not to mention the various growth stimulents that they are packed with, which frequently cause a bird's bones to break under it's own weight - also heart and lung issues as previously mentioned. Arghh. I shit you not, factory farms are worse than torture, and if you have ever seen one in person, you will struggle to sleep at night. Especially pork battery farms. They're serious nightmare material. So to spare an animal this experience, even if it is essentially taking away their life entirely, has to be a good thing.

Your font is too hard to read on a computer screen no matter how much I zoom in or out.

[Venusinfurs]

Really? It looks ok to me, but I'm reading it on a massive screen.. Probably for the best, it was a bit of a meladromatic post Was somewhat inebriated, though I guess it is my honest opinion. I'll sort font later

[kittycat]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, I say if the scientific trials go well then this should be the norm in chicken farming, no matter how weird it is, efficiency and global impact should trump what people consider humane and unnatural every single time.