73 replies to this topic

[ShadowLink64]

You've seen the guys who are running for the American presidency this year, right?

I changed my post to "condoning the killing", but yes. Some of them could be considered a little "extreme" in some ways too.

[Mishelle]

Why don't they just leave the punishment of the US and its "belligerents" in the hands of Allah?


When you have foreign officials condoning the killing, it really diminishes the view that it's only extremists taking part in this.


I think that this statement by the minister shows some ignorance about the essence behind freedom of expression. Why should the line be drawn at stopping people from insulting their Prophet? Who else will get special exceptions from being insulted? No one's deity should get special protection under any kind of law.


That's pretty ignorant of them, that's all I can say. There are independent film makers all over the continent who don't necessarily get the government's permission to create productions.

Foreign officials can be just as misinformed as any other person can be. Just like after this whole thing happened Romney went on record bashing Obama for apologizing the video because he received misinformation. I think we can all agree that the real problem is that people are starting to believe everything they read on the internet.

How much money do you believe we should spend on such endeavors? There were already Muslim extremists planning these attacks before the video.

I already acknowledged that the extremists were using this as an excuse. The problem isn't the misconception of extremists the problem was that the vitriol was going global and effecting all parts of the world including places like Australia, India and Indonesia. When a misconception like this is going global I don't think it's too out of line for the government to flex their foreign policy and straighten things out.

[Casilla]

So what you're saying is that we should apologize to people we offend in other countries but not our own? It's acceptable for our citizens to offend other citizens but we should spend money to run ads in other countries if such content offends their citizens?

Again, there is NO apology in that ad, bro. And as for condemning something people find highly offensive - when those countries contain people who can be recruited into terrorist organizations who are gladly using this as recruitment, who are right next to a country (Afghanistan) which we have American soldiers in...then we say whatever we think will protect our interests AND our soldiers. We have a lot of interest, even outside of Afghanistan, of keeping Pakistan on our side.

So, it's our government's job to correct misconceptions that Muslim extremists have? I think we're going to be busy.

That's the issue. This isn't JUST extremists. It's normal everyday people who live in a country where they cannot comprehend freedom of speech because they have nothing like it. They are being told that we (all Americans) made this movie to mock them. They are being used BY extremists to generate hate and violence.

Real world is often not at all like our ideals. You either adapt your foreign policy, and work with it, or you go the way of the USSR.

[Cript]

Again, there is NO apology in that ad, bro. And as for condemning something people find highly offensive - when those countries contain people who can be recruited into terrorist organizations who are gladly using this as recruitment, who are right next to a country (Afghanistan) which we have American soldiers in...then we say whatever we think will protect our interests AND our soldiers. We have a lot of interest, even outside of Afghanistan, of keeping Pakistan on our side.



That's the issue. This isn't JUST extremists. It's normal everyday people who live in a country where they cannot comprehend freedom of speech because they have nothing like it. They are being told that we (all Americans) made this movie to mock them. They are being used BY extremists to generate hate and violence.

Real world is often not at all like our ideals. You either adapt your foreign policy, and work with it, or you go the way of the USSR.

Kindly find me the normal, everyday person who became violent due to this film.

[Mishelle]

Kindly find me the normal, everyday person who became violent due to this film.

Have you not been watching the news? There were kids who were throwing rocks and becoming violent. You think those kids usually just go around breaking shit all day?

Edited by Mishelle, 23 September 2012 - 01:12 PM.

[Casilla]

Kindly find me the normal, everyday person who became violent due to this film.

Normal, everyday people are moved to violence all the time.

http://en.wikipedia....1_England_riots
http://en.wikipedia....s_Angeles_riots
http://en.wikipedia....tanley_Cup_riot

Are you saying that none of these people involved in the above are not normal? They are not everyday people you could meet on the street? They do not have their own comparable (to ourselves) lives which, for whatever reason, they set aside when they got caught up in a violent movement? People do things for all sorts of odd reasons, or even no reason at all. Sometimes, it's easy to get caught up in a riot, because you feel like you are apart of something greater than yourself. As a mob, you feel invincible. Sometimes, you act like you would not normally act, and you cannot explain why. (Have you never done something like that? Even if it wasn't violent? I know I have). And when you add in something that you strongly believe in, it gets a lot easier to do these sort of things, it gets a lot easier to appeal to pathos to stir a crowd to violence. This can happen ANYWHERE.

[Cript]

Normal, everyday people are moved to violence all the time.

http://en.wikipedia....1_England_riots
http://en.wikipedia....s_Angeles_riots
http://en.wikipedia....tanley_Cup_riot

Are you saying that none of these people involved in the above are not normal? They are not everyday people you could meet on the street? They do not have their own comparable (to ourselves) lives which, for whatever reason, they set aside when they got caught up in a violent movement? People do things for all sorts of odd reasons, or even no reason at all. Sometimes, it's easy to get caught up in a riot, because you feel like you are apart of something greater than yourself. As a mob, you feel invincible. Sometimes, you act like you would not normally act, and you cannot explain why. (Have you never done something like that? Even if it wasn't violent? I know I have). And when you add in something that you strongly believe in, it gets a lot easier to do these sort of things, it gets a lot easier to appeal to pathos to stir a crowd to violence. This can happen ANYWHERE.

I asked you to show me which normal, every-day peaceful Muslim became a violent protester due to this film. I didn't ask you about the LA riots which are a significantly different story.

[Sweeney]

I asked you to show me which normal, every-day peaceful Muslim became a violent protester due to this film. I didn't ask you about the LA riots which are a significantly different story.

[Cript]

Not seeing the normal every day guy. Just seeing extremists.

[Sweeney]

Not seeing the normal every day guy. Just seeing extremists.

You can tell just by looking?
Homeland security need to snap you up asap.

[Waser Lave]

You can tell just by looking?
Homeland security need to snap you up asap.

I say it's all in the beard.

[Nymh]

I asked you to show me which normal, every-day peaceful Muslim became a violent protester due to this film. I didn't ask you about the LA riots which are a significantly different story.

Do you realize how dense you sound? We can't just fly over to Pakistan and bring you back an average-Joe-turned-violent-protester so you can nod your head and say, "Yeah, ok, I concede my point." Terrorist organizations are using this incident to promote people into their ranks, spreading anti-American propaganda to the average Joes hoping that they will believe them and join their cause. They have very real plans to kill Americans and this is one of the catalysts that they are using to further their causes. It is the responsibility of our government to unquestionably denounce any claim they may be perceived to have on the film. Not to apologize, but to set the record straight that this is not the official stance of the American government and they do not endorse it. Just like the Pakistani government said the exact same thing about the minister who offered $100,000 to murder the American who made the film.

Foreign officials can be just as misinformed as any other person can be. Just like after this whole thing happened Romney went on record bashing Obama for apologizing the video because he received misinformation. I think we can all agree that the real problem is that people are listening to too much Rush Limbaugh.

FTFY

[Casilla]

I asked you to show me which normal, every-day peaceful Muslim became a violent protester due to this film. I didn't ask you about the LA riots which are a significantly different story.

So when WE act violently, it's a "different story"? That the only Muslims who protest are extremists? Are you even realizing what you're saying? The LA riots are a different story, sure, but it's the same aspect of humanity which causes people to act out in ways they would not normally act.

Of course I can't point out an individual. I can only show you examples of it happening in every other culture on the face of the Earth, including our own. If you can't see these people as like us, and thus suspect to the same pitfalls, I don't know what to tell you. But I do think you should read up on the psychology of riots and crowd behavior.

"Crowd psychology shows that when you see other people acting in a certain way, you're more likely to do it. It intensifies whatever is normative in the group," says Higgins. "In the U.K., fighting back is seen as normative. But violence isn't the necessary outcome of every collective action," he says.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/11/the-psychology-of-a-riot_n_924839.html

http://www.psycholog...lish-riots.html

In some of the more shocking cases, the crimes seemed to be rooted in nothing more than split-second decisions made by normally orderly people seduced by the disorder around them.

http://www.nytimes.c.../14looters.html

Taking into account crowd psychology, those few violence-prone individuals can trigger a crowd of violent behavior. Groups afford people the anonymity to engage in behavior they wouldn't engage in otherwise. A group's behavior is more likely to help an individual justify going outside of their moral code.

http://www.psycholog...he-line-rioting

FURTHERMORE, because this isn't just happening in one country - it's happening in multiple countries - this heightens the crowd perception. It's kind of like the Occupy movement. People did things they might not normally do, because they felt connected to a greater purpose, knowing that it was happening elsewhere in the country. That didn't always result in violence, but it was still abnormal behavior.

[Mishelle]

Sometimes I wonder if Cript secretly is Rush Limbaugh.

[Cript]

Sometimes I wonder if Cript secretly is Rush Limbaugh.

Because I think our government should spend its money feeding its citizens instead of buying air time in countries that hate us?

[Nymh]

Because I think our government should spend its money feeding its citizens instead of buying air time in countries that hate us?

Alright, now you're just trolling.

[Waser Lave]

Because I think our government should spend its money feeding its citizens instead of buying air time in countries that hate us?

What if buying that air time saved an American life? (Didn't it only cost like $70k anyway? I think I remember reading that somewhere.)

[Cript]

What if buying that air time saved an American life? (Didn't it only cost like $70k anyway? I think I remember reading that somewhere.)

Why weren't we buying air time before to correct misconceptions? That's my point here. I don't believe this film changed anything whatsoever. These extremists try to kill us every chance they get whether it's on our soil or theirs. Our best bet would be to cut our ties completely, stop giving them money for food while they spend their own money on weapons to kill us with. Stop sending our troops over there to be shot by their troops who are supposed to be our "partners"

[Nymh]

Why weren't we buying air time before to correct misconceptions? That's my point here. I don't believe this film changed anything whatsoever. These extremists try to kill us every chance they get whether it's on our soil or theirs. Our best bet would be to cut our ties completely, stop giving them money for food while they spend their own money on weapons to kill us with. Stop sending our troops over there to be shot by their troops who are supposed to be our "partners"

But why would you not try to get the message out to people who are not extremists, who might be recruited by the extremists if they think that this is the stance of our government? Sure we can't stop extremists from being extremists but maybe we can keep their numbers down which is not only saving American lives, but the lives of the innocent people who might join these militant groups. And what are these aforementioned other misconceptions that you're questioning why we weren't correcting?

[Mishelle]

Why weren't we buying air time before to correct misconceptions? That's my point here. I don't believe this film changed anything whatsoever. These extremists try to kill us every chance they get whether it's on our soil or theirs. Our best bet would be to cut our ties completely, stop giving them money for food while they spend their own money on weapons to kill us with. Stop sending our troops over there to be shot by their troops who are supposed to be our "partners"

Are your arms hurting from all that reaching?

The middle east is in shambles from leaders being overthrown by their own people or killed because of us (lybia and iraq) if we just up and leave there's going to be a civil war, and guess who's going to get into power? You don't see that as a threat to the US at all?

[Cript]

Are your arms hurting from all that reaching?

The middle east is in shambles from leaders being overthrown by their own people or killed because of us (lybia and iraq) if we just up and leave there's going to be a civil war, and guess who's going to get into power? You don't see that as a threat to the US at all?

You do realize you're using the exact same logic that many Republicans used for staying in Iraq and Afghanistan, right?

BTW: Here's what happens when you help one group of radicals overthrow another group of radicals:

http://en.wikipedia....den_controversy

[Nymh]

Hmm, responded to him three times and no return response yet. I think he's ignoring me.

[Mishelle]

You do realize you're using the exact same logic that many Republicans used for staying in Iraq and Afghanistan, right?

BTW: Here's what happens when you help one group of radicals overthrow another group of radicals:

http://en.wikipedia....den_controversy

Yes I'm aware of that but I'm not for staying over there for the sole intent of carrying on a war as an excuse to increase the already bloated defense spending. When Americans are over there they don't have to go over there and kill people. They can be over there for diplomacy, to teach them how to be democratic, to help them run a fair voting process and elect their own officials. And the foreign aid we give to them is such a miniscule percentage of our gdp and that foreign aid can easily go toward doing the above mentioned. I love how ~fiscal conservatives~ always want to focus on the small money and not one the big money. How about instead of focusing on money that saves American's lives overseas we focus on the billions of dollars in defense spending which is leading to wasteful purchasing of military items that don't even get used and the billions more in corporate welfare.

Edited by Mishelle, 23 September 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[Waser Lave]

I love how ~fiscal conservatives~ always want to focus on the small money and not one the big money. How about instead of focusing on money that saves American's lives overseas we focus on the billions of dollars in defense spending which is leading to wasteful purchasing of military items that don't even get used and the billions more in corporate welfare.

Don't forget the multi-millionaires and multi-billionaires being taxed at a lower rate than receptionists.

[Cript]

Yes I'm aware of that but I'm not for staying over there for the sole intent of carrying on a war as an excuse to increase the already bloated defense spending. When Americans are over there they don't have to go over there and kill people. They can be over there for diplomacy, to teach them how to be democratic, to help them run a fair voting process and elect their own officials. And the foreign aid we give to them is such a miniscule percentage of our gdp and that foreign aid can easily go toward doing the above mentioned. I love how ~fiscal conservatives~ always want to focus on the small money and not one the big money. How about instead of focusing on money that saves American's lives overseas we focus on the billions of dollars in defense spending which is leading to wasteful purchasing of military items that don't even get used and the billions more in corporate welfare.

Welfare = The government giving something (from one person to another)
Corporations don't receive welfare. They keep more of their own money. For a corporation to receive welfare, the Gov would have to write them a check at the end of the year. For instance, I'm not on welfare because I reduce my tax burden by writing off mortgage interest.

I agree that we should reduce our defense budget. I agree that we should simplify our tax code and reduce deductions that allow profitable entities to claim no tax burden. I'd encourage you to look at what companies truly take advantage of such deductions though - look at the subsidies provided to "green" energy companies compared to oil companies.

My main point in this topic is that we're chasing a lost cause here. We've tried making these folks like us for a long long time and it's not going to happen. I don't agree with the dual standard their religion gets. I think it's ridiculous that Muslims can constantly respond with violence to any perceived slight against their religion yet consistently talk of wiping the entire nation of Israel off the earth. I 100% agree that there are bad Christians, bad Muslims, and bad people of every religion. What I don't agree with is the idea that we need to apologize or "set the record straight" for any perceived slight. In a country that tolerates nut cases like those baptists that picket veterans' funerals, it seems silly that Muslims would be spared.