78 replies to this topic

[Kaddict]

So I think I read about this chick a few months ago, but don't have time to make sure it is the same. Anyway, I have made very clear instructions to my spouse and my parents that if I were in a vegetative state, or a coma that looked extremely unlikely I would wake from etc etc that they pull the plug. And if something happened so my mind went kaputz, (not like Alzheimers, like unable to function on my own anymore) I dont want to keep living (with the medical judgement of my family and all other factors blah blah blah). I don't see how her situation is any different. I agree with her right.

[Grimley]

This was all over my Facebook when it happened and I was pretty astounded at the people calling her a coward and a cop out. "She gave up on life instead of praying for a miracle", etc.

 

I'm not sure they would be singing the same tune if a brain tumor was slowly consuming their body and dragging them in to an incredibly pain, slow, and agonizing death. No amount of "praying" is just going to miraculously cure a terminal illness. I understand if you personally want to try and hang on for that astronomically slim chance, or battle until the end to maximize your time with loved ones.

 

But if you're suffering and by all means going to die, I fully support your choice to go quietly and on your terms if that's what you wish.

 

I personally don't think speaking of one's deserved choice to either live or die as either "cowardly" or "brave" is even proper: as long has the ability to make the choice independently, of their own free will, it's awesome whichever path is chosen but definitely not something that third parties aside from that individual have a right to assess in any capacity. It's not our choice to make to begin with.

[Emily]

I think it's frustrating that people are arguing against her decision in the first place. I don't think that anyone could possibly understand unless they were faced with this themselves. Not only did she save herself from suffering but she saved her family from the heartache of having to see her in that condition. 

 

A friend of mine on Facebook made the point of saying that people don't mind putting down an animal that's suffering but they will argue until their face turns red when a person makes a decision about their own life. 

[Rocket]

I just want to slap the vatican in the face.. I mean I understand religion has it's own ways of doing things, but I find it hard to comprehend letting someone suffer.

 

If an animal is in pain and going to die, you end it's life and put it out of it's misery. This is what she did. My brain just doesn't process how people can't accept this, she's going to die, she's already suffering and She chose to go out a few months early on her own terms so no one would have to watch her suffer more than she already is.

[DonValentino]

Because life is a gift from God and it is sacred, and if you kill yourself, that is a mortal sin, as you are spitting in His face. You'll burn in Hell, @Rocket! 

[Rocket]

Because life is a gift from God and it is sacred, and if you kill yourself, that is a mortal sin, as you are spitting in His face. You'll burn in Hell, @Rocket! 

At least I'll be warm, right?

[redlion]

At least I'll be warm, right?

Good company too, according to Dante.

[Shannon]

I think it's frustrating that people are arguing against her decision in the first place. I don't think that anyone could possibly understand unless they were faced with this themselves. Not only did she save herself from suffering but she saved her family from the heartache of having to see her in that condition. 

 

A friend of mine on Facebook made the point of saying that people don't mind putting down an animal that's suffering but they will argue until their face turns red when a person makes a decision about their own life. 

 

That animal analogy is so spot-on. Why force someone to suffer? She was at peace with her decision, so I don't think anyone else should have to worry about it. 

[Alexiel]

I think assisted suicide should be allowed in all states. Then again, I'm of the opinion that most things should be legal AS LONG AS children aren't in danger, others aren't in danger, non-owned property isn't damaged/destroyed, and it's in the privacy of your own home. I'd like to give everyone a chance before they choose to end their life though... like an hour/two a day counselling session for an entire week. Y'know, JUST IN CASE there is an alternative available. The exception being terminally ill, of course.

 

Definitely a decision that shouldn't be rushed/decided upon in the heat of the moment. And I'd hope those who choose to go out would make piece with their loved ones.

Sometimes I'll hear about terminally ill patients who choose assisted suicide. IIRC fairly recently I think an older woman (perhaps a grandmother/aunt?) had severe alzheimers. Before it fully took over, she chose to end her life. Before that she spent a lot of time with family, talking it over, explaining to them, and doing everything in her and their power to make the transition as peaceful and easy as possible. Think she even had a big "party" to celebrate the full life she lived. To me, that's kinda beautiful in its own way. I mean think about it, life is so unpredictable. No one knows when they're going to die and suicide or not... a sudden death can have lasting... nightmares, emotions, etc. for those who continue living. This way at least everyone (hopefully) is able to find closure.

 

Then there's the fact that the world should seriously be considering about overpopulation and limited resources. Eventually we'll need to embrace some form of population control if we're not careful. In addition to this, allowing those who choose death could be a service of sorts to those who live. Perhaps the government could even offer an incentive... some sort of compensation to immediate family (again after a period of counseling/talking things through). Of course, this is more of an extreme (but possible) scenario.

 

I'll be honest... I say this and my mind instantly thinks of Soylent Green. A private room, peaceful sounds, scenery of choice, and an injection where the suicidee peacefully falls asleep. Only, y'know, without the followup of being eaten. (Though it would be cool if you'd then be cremated and your ashes we turned into a lab created gemstone for your loved ones... in addition to any compensation/bonuses.)

 

If nothing else, we live in a society in which we're relatively free to choose how to live life. We aren't assigned jobs, aren't told how to spend our free time (to an extent), etc. so why should the choice to end life be any different. Our life, our choice.

[Hawk]

So essentially what you're saying, and correct me if I'm reading you wrong here, is that only people with terminal illnesses, vegetative states, bedridden and the like have the right to die. The rest of us, well, we're the state's property. Yes?

If you're not terminally ill, vegetative, bedridden, or the like, there's a damn good chance you can find a way to off yourself.  I'm not disputing one's right to death, that's the individual's decision.  This topic, however, is about death with dignity.

 

It's a personal stance, but succumbing to a mental illness like depression is not dignified.

 

Like I said, tons of gray area.

[LostinSpace]

I used to live in Michigan, where Dr. Kevorkian kept being tried for murder when he assisted with suicide for terminally ill patients.  After the third or fourth trial, they finally got a jury to convict him.  What a shame, to do this to a man trying to ease people's pain.  Dying is such a personal thing that everyone must do alone.  How they choose to do this should be a personal decision.  

[cara]

If she were in my family i would encourage her not to kill herself before her time, especially if she was not suffering greatly. I have not been following this story because i cant change it and it isn't terribly uplifting, so i don't know much about her situation. People in this world do what they want to anyways, i am just sad for her family, loss is loss.

 

I think expecting someone who is terminally ill to wait until they are 'suffering greatly' before you allow them to die is extremely selfish. 

 

Also terminally ill means she is going to die either way. So they would have had to deal with it inevitably. I understand that you'd want to spend as much time as possible with your loved one but to ask her to stick around because you'd rather deal with it later because she is not suffering enough for you to be content with her ending her life is a bit absurd.

[Alexiel]

"She gave up on life instead of praying for a miracle", etc.

 

 

Right. Cause praying solves EVERY problem.
Lazy sobs. Don't pray about solving problems, do something about them.

We get past this religious mumbo jumbo and we will make great strives in civilization advancements.

Perhaps if we weren't so busy fighting over bs religious reasons then we would have had the technology to cure her and other "terminally" ill people.

 

At the very least people need to mind their own dang business.

Unless you've walked in another person's shoes (and really, not even then) then you have no right to judge others.

Pray for a miracle... pfft.

 

It's like...

"I pray for the homeless every night."
That's nice. You do that while I volunteer at a soup kitchen or gather winter clothes & blankets.

 

Sorry. Sorry. Another debate for another day. orz

 

Edit: Oops, I was responding to a new post. Didn't realize we were on the second page already.

Edited by DawnKnight, 05 November 2014 - 06:03 PM.

[NapisaurusRex]

I'll be honest... I say this and my mind instantly thinks of Soylent Green. A private room, peaceful sounds, scenery of choice, and an injection where the suicidee peacefully falls asleep. Only, y'know, without the followup of being eaten. (Though it would be cool if you'd then be cremated and your ashes we turned into a lab created gemstone for your loved ones... in addition to any compensation/bonuses.)
 
If nothing else, we live in a society in which we're relatively free to choose how to live life. We aren't assigned jobs, aren't told how to spend our free time (to an extent), etc. so why should the choice to end life be any different. Our life, our choice.

I want my ashes eaten.

[Adam]

Right. Cause praying solves EVERY problem.
Lazy sobs. Don't pray about solving problems, do something about them.

We get past this religious mumbo jumbo and we will make great strives in civilization advancements.

Perhaps if we weren't so busy fighting over bs religious reasons then we would have had the technology to cure her and other "terminally" ill people.

 

At the very least people need to mind their own dang business.

Unless you've walked in another person's shoes (and really, not even then) then you have no right to judge others.

Pray for a miracle... pfft.

 

It's like...

"I pray for the homeless every night."
That's nice. You do that while I volunteer at a soup kitchen or gather winter clothes & blankets.

 

Sorry. Sorry. Another debate for another day. orz

 

Edit: Oops, I was responding to a new post. Didn't realize we were on the second page already.

I think the topic you're looking for is located >>HERE<<

[Hawk]

Right. Cause praying solves EVERY problem.
Lazy sobs. Don't pray about solving problems, do something about them.

We get past this religious mumbo jumbo and we will make great strives in civilization advancements.

Perhaps if we weren't so busy fighting over bs religious reasons then we would have had the technology to cure her and other "terminally" ill people.

 

At the very least people need to mind their own dang business.

Unless you've walked in another person's shoes (and really, not even then) then you have no right to judge others.

Pray for a miracle... pfft.

 

It's like...

"I pray for the homeless every night."
That's nice. You do that while I volunteer at a soup kitchen or gather winter clothes & blankets.

 

Sorry. Sorry. Another debate for another day. orz

 

Edit: Oops, I was responding to a new post. Didn't realize we were on the second page already.

I will go line-by-line, including those not relevant at all to this debate.  I will also remark about the irrelevance at every opportunity.  Since you've opted to be a prick and go off-topic, I shall do the same.

 

Your sarcasm is wonderful, and is solving every problem in this thread.  Congratulations on picking out an oddball line to go on a religious rant on an otherwise on-topic discussion.

Describing those who pray as "Lazy slobs" is the best way to convert people to your cause.  Prayer can be mighty helpful to those dealing with any situation, even if it does have no real affect on any outcome.

Religious mumbo jumbo, while at times has led to war, is no longer the popular one among historians.  Science, which leads to the advancement of civilization, is not in conflict with religion.  Also, take a look at history and get back to me about some guys involved in the Manhattan Project, or science in the Islamic world.  You're clueless if you think that religious mumbo jumbo stifles civilization's advancements.

Perhaps if we were fighting over more stuff we'd have the technology.  It's quite crazy how quickly technology advances when you're trying to one up the people trying to kill you.

 

You're damn right, people should mind their own business, so you're on this rant why?

I agree, unless you've walked in another person's shoes, you have no right to judge others.  I still want to pose the question: So why are you tearing down people for their religious beliefs?

How dare people pray for a miracle.  That causes so much harm to everyone, everywhere.

 

If praying for the homeless is all you can do, why should you stop?  If it gives someone some sense of satisfaction, that is great.  Religious organizations donate a ton of resources (Time, money, food, etc.) to help the homeless.

 

That is for another day, but you made it for today in an off-topic way.

[Alexiel]

I will go line-by-line, including those not relevant at all to this debate.  I will also remark about the irrelevance at every opportunity.  Since you've opted to be a prick and go off-topic, I shall do the same.

 

Your sarcasm is wonderful, and is solving every problem in this thread.  Congratulations on picking out an oddball line to go on a religious rant on an otherwise on-topic discussion.

Describing those who pray as "Lazy slobs" is the best way to convert people to your cause.  Prayer can be mighty helpful to those dealing with any situation, even if it does have no real affect on any outcome.

Religious mumbo jumbo, while at times has led to war, is no longer the popular one among historians.  Science, which leads to the advancement of civilization, is not in conflict with religion.  Also, take a look at history and get back to me about some guys involved in the Manhattan Project, or science in the Islamic world.  You're clueless if you think that religious mumbo jumbo stifles civilization's advancements.

Perhaps if we were fighting over more stuff we'd have the technology.  It's quite crazy how quickly technology advances when you're trying to one up the people trying to kill you.

 

You're damn right, people should mind their own business, so you're on this rant why?

I agree, unless you've walked in another person's shoes, you have no right to judge others.  I still want to pose the question: So why are you tearing down people for their religious beliefs?

How dare people pray for a miracle.  That causes so much harm to everyone, everywhere.

 

If praying for the homeless is all you can do, why should you stop?  If it gives someone some sense of satisfaction, that is great.  Religious organizations donate a ton of resources (Time, money, food, etc.) to help the homeless.

 

That is for another day, but you made it for today in an off-topic way.

 

It just pisses me off. These same people judging this woman, saying things like "she should have prayed" are the same people who blamed a tornado that killed several in an ELEMENTARY school on a town for not being religious enough. That "God" is dishing out punishment to the wicked children or families of those children. These people will "pray" for their salvation while casting judgement instead of actually doing anything to help rebuild, save those still under rubble, go around collecting donations or offering a home for those who lost theirs, or anything else that will ACTUALLY help.

Remember that big tsunami/earthquake in Japan? Same people saying the people of Japan DESERVE it because the majority isn't CHRISTIAN.

Same with other events and tragedies.

 

Now I do know there are exceptions to these people. That some churches actually care about people more than profits. There always is, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the type of people who did and are doing what I quoted to countless others... all in the name of their god.

 

"If it gives someone some sense of satisfaction, that is great."

Yes, sure, that is great. For them, but not necessarily the person they're praying for.

Pray for whomever just don't force it on others. Don't look down upon others because they don't pray the same way if even at all.

If it helps the individual get through whatever, feel better about anything, or find inner strength, etc. then that is GREAT... but when that prayer becomes and excuse or a weapon it's a problem. 

 

Take this for example: "You're homosexual. My bible says it's a sin. Therefore you're gross, and I am going to judge you and pray for you at the same time. I'm going to pray your gay away." So they feel better about themselves, they feel like they're "helping" when in reality they're hurting. That the person in question may have a happy, fulfilling life without having to change a thing... but suddenly they're attacked for being themselves.

At best, they're not doing anything productive at worse they're using their religion to hurt, prosecute, judge, etc. others.

 

Like for the topic at hand. "She should have prayed for a miracle." She didn't therefore she's a coward, bad person/less of a person than "me", etc etc. Now how do you think the loved ones she left behind feel having to grieve AND deal with these idiots. Then the media constantly regurgitating that same garbage over and over again... they can't escape it.

 

You mention maybe we should be fighting more, but we're already fighting plenty. Been doing so for years because one country isn't Christian while the other has "too many Christians" so we have to be attacked, have our people beheaded, etc. for THEIR god. Yes, technology is advancing but it's advancing weapons so we can destroy ourselves and each other. If the current religions went the way of the Greeks' & Romans' then we'd have less things to fight about. Instead of pulling much of our resources to war we could put them into education, science, etc. 

 

Your example of the Manhattan Project actually furthers my point. The atom bomb was created as a response to World War II. WWII started because the Germans (the Germanic peoples—also referred to as the Nordic race—were considered to be the purest representation of Aryanism, and therefore the master race. Aryan mysticism claimed that Christianity originated in Aryan religious tradition and that Jews had usurped the legend from Aryans.) So once again Christianity influenced craziness that caused the slaughter of over 6 million Jews. No superior White Christian "master race", no WWII, no Manhattan Project.

What about the Christian Crusades though? Several hundred years of fighting because of religion. Several hundred years that humanity could been advancing.

 

The US spends "$287 billion to $530 billion" because of war. Much of which is fought in the middle east. Because their religion is at conflict with ours and our values. Because their religion hurts their own people worse than ours hurts us. Now imagine if we either had no religion or, at the very least, could accept that no one religion is right (or wrong). Not only would we be able to free up more money for scientific advancement in medicine but could be that much closer to working together... not as individual nations but as a whole: the people of Earth, brothers and sisters in humanity. Though... in all fairness, in our current state of humanity, we may just end up finding more stupid things to fight over.

 

I suppose, ultimately though, my anger comes from being on the receiving end of these same "caring" Christians who want to "pray for my salvation" or feel the need to tell me I'm going to hell because I'm bisexual. That I'm a bad person who should kill myself because I'm how I am or don't believe in their god. That just because I used to wear all black I was gothic therefore a Satanist and it was okay to say all the cruelest things one can think up. Saying "you'll pray for me" just made me question myself and feel like complete shit. Etc etc. To an extent, I'm walking in similar shoes as this family is now. Different types of hate and judgement, but all from the same source: judgemental Christians.

 

I am sorry I got so far off topic. This just triggered some memories I've long tried to bury, and I let my anger from it get the best of me this time. I am also sorry for offending you and anyone else. I do respect your opinions (and appreciate knocking some sense back into me, reminding me #notallreligions and #notallChristians are the source of the problems that religions as a whole may or may not directly be responsible for). If you're religious then good for you. Do what you need to do. I respect your choice even if I don't agree with yours or anyone else's religion. All I ask, beg is that you and others don't let your religion (whatever it may be) cause you to bring any form of pain (emotional, mental, or physical) to others just because they don't see eye to eye with you. Don't let religion be the see all, be all, do all that some get carried away... (like those who allow their children to die because their religion doesn't allow modern medicine).

 

I think the topic you're looking for is located >>HERE<<

 

Thank you, but after this I... think I may stay away from the debate section until I can stick with logic and fact and let less of my emotions get involved... to be able to keep my cool and more clearly, calmly argue my opinion.

 

 

 

Anyways, I'm out. Did not mean to let this get so far out of hand. Not sure how to transition this back on topic so if a Mod feels it necessary please delete my two rant posts. Again, extremely sorry for taking this OT and all ranting. 

Edited by DawnKnight, 05 November 2014 - 09:47 PM.

[Bone]

I think that anyone has a right to choose when they die. Not just people who fit the definition of "terminally ill". Everyone.

I've lost a few friends to suicide, so don't go saying I'd feel differently if someone I loved took their own life. Yes it sucks for everyone left behind; it's confusing and devastating and painful a lot of the time. But ultimately your life and your body belong to you, and what you do with it is your decision.

I agree. I think suicide is often incredibly selfish, but I don't think the state should be empowered to force people to live.

Hinduism and Jainism have interesting approaches, as far as religion goes, on suicide. They allow suicide by fasting if one has no remaining responsibilities or ambitions.

[NapisaurusRex]

I agree. I think suicide is often incredibly selfish, but I don't think the state should be empowered to force people to live.

Hinduism and Jainism have interesting approaches, as far as religion goes, on suicide. They allow suicide by fasting if one has no remaining responsibilities or ambitions.

I didn't know that, that's a hard way to go. It takes incredible willpower to be able to do that.

[Bone]

I didn't know that, that's a hard way to go. It takes incredible willpower to be able to do that.

 

Yeah, I find it pretty hardcore/admirable.

[NapisaurusRex]

Yeah, I find it pretty hardcore/admirable.

Well, I guess it's a good way to see if someone really wants to kill themselves, I guess.

[Hawk]

I'm retarded.

 

Let's get the ball rolling, bud.  I appreciate the fact that you changed fonts midway through your rant.  Proves you're an original thinker.

 

 

It just pisses me off. These same people judging this woman, saying things like "she should have prayed" are the same people who blamed a tornado that killed several in an ELEMENTARY school on a town for not being religious enough. That "God" is dishing out punishment to the wicked children or families of those children. These people will "pray" for their salvation while casting judgement instead of actually doing anything to help rebuild, save those still under rubble, go around collecting donations or offering a home for those who lost theirs, or anything else that will ACTUALLY help.

Please do yourself a massive favor and start ignoring extremists.  That may include yourself, based on your ranting.  The people who blame a tornado for hitting an elementary school are like Jihadists who commit acts of terror - Small, denounced subsets of an otherwise reasonable religion.  I am so glad you make that your point of reference, because that's a nice straw man.

 

Plenty of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and atheists DO help rebuild, save those still under rubble, collect and donate to causes, etc.  Instead, like I said, you're focusing on a very vocal minority, and a small one at that.

 

 

 

Remember that big tsunami/earthquake in Japan? Same people saying the people of Japan DESERVE it because the majority isn't CHRISTIAN.

Same with other events and tragedies.

 

And if you're listening to that, and getting pissed off (Which I think you are), you're their intended audience.  It's working.  BTW, stay on topic.

 

Now I do know there are exceptions to these people. That some churches actually care about people more than profits. There always is, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the type of people who did and are doing what I quoted to countless others... all in the name of their god.

 

 

Nice way to backtrack and try to cover your ass.  Oddly enough, you are talking about that.  Matter of fact, your whole fucking post is about this point.

 

 

Yes, sure, that is great. For them, but not necessarily the person they're praying for.

Pray for whomever just don't force it on others. Don't look down upon others because they don't pray the same way if even at all.

If it helps the individual get through whatever, feel better about anything, or find inner strength, etc. then that is GREAT... but when that prayer becomes and excuse or a weapon it's a problem. 

 

And in reality, what can most individuals do for the person they're praying for?  I'm no surgeon, I'm no general practitioner, I'm no anesthesiologist, or dentist, or a fucking pharmacist.  

 

This was not about forcing prayer on others until you made it so.

 

I agree with a bit of your third line that I quoted.  Praying, even if it only gives a small glimmer of hope, is effective.  It's amazing how powerful our minds can be.  If it encourages someone to not give up in a life-or-death situation, how is that not beneficial?

 

I disagree with your idea that payer can be weaponized.  Until my local FOX News station (Take that bait, please) starts talking about PMDs (Prayers of Mass Destruction) I think we have little to fear in that regards.

 

 

 

 

Like for the topic at hand. "She should have prayed for a miracle." She didn't therefore she's a coward, bad person/less of a person than "me", etc etc. Now how do you think the loved ones she left behind feel having to grieve AND deal with these idiots. Then the media constantly regurgitating that same garbage over and over again... they can't escape it.

 

You don't know if she prayed for a miracle.  She could have prayed on it for a long time.  Or meditated on it.  Or slept on it.  Or who-knows-what?  It doesn't matter.  She did what brought her peace in light of a terminal disease.

 

I am going to disregard the rant about homosexuality.  That's a different topic.  All your other rants have been at least relatively related to the original topic or tangentially related to your rant.

 

 

You mention maybe we should be fighting more, but we're already fighting plenty. Been doing so for years because one country isn't Christian while the other has "too many Christians" so we have to be attacked, have our people beheaded, etc. for THEIR god. Yes, technology is advancing but it's advancing weapons so we can destroy ourselves and each other. If the current religions went the way of the Greeks' & Romans' then we'd have less things to fight about. Instead of pulling much of our resources to war we could put them into education, science, etc. 

Let's keep talking about extremist points of view....

 

 

Your example of the Manhattan Project actually furthers my point. The atom bomb was created as a response to World War II. WWII started because the Germans (the Germanic peoples—also referred to as the Nordic race—were considered to be the purest representation of Aryanism, and therefore the master race. Aryan mysticism claimed that Christianity originated in Aryan religious tradition and that Jews had usurped the legend from Aryans.) So once again Christianity influenced craziness that caused the slaughter of over 6 million Jews. No superior White Christian "master race", no WWII, no Manhattan Project.

The atom bomb was a collaboration of brilliant minds to race the Nazis and Soviets to the creation of a weapon that could end a war.  It was the type of project that could only be produced during a war, and the world is reaping it's benefits since.  Since then, the technology has been successfully implemented in power generation.  Not sure on the exact statistics but it likely provides 1/6th of the world's power right now.

 

Another great benefit of the militarization (or rather, lack of demilitarization) of the U.S. is GPS.  The constant threat of being one-upped has led to plenty of technological innovations, likely that you use daily, that you do not even notice.

 

 

The US spends "$287 billion to $530 billion" because of war. Much of which is fought in the middle east. Because their religion is at conflict with ours and our values. Because their religion hurts their own people worse than ours hurts us. Now imagine if we either had no religion or, at the very least, could accept that no one religion is right (or wrong). Not only would we be able to free up more money for scientific advancement in medicine but could be that much closer to working together... not as individual nations but as a whole: the people of Earth, brothers and sisters in humanity. Though... in all fairness, in our current state of humanity, we may just end up finding more stupid things to fight over.

There's the change in font I was referencing.  Has your opinion on this matter changed lately?  Because "Because their religion is at conflict with ours and our values" sounds like a Muslim extremist given the pretext.  Then again, you also continue your rant about no religion being right or wrong - Which is quite funny from my point of view.  The three major monotheistic religions all follow the same general theme, the details have been translated (Exception being Islam, which is only correct in Arabic if I remember correctly) or transcribed many times.  Still, the gist is the same.  Sane followers of the religions realize that, and do not harbor ill-will towards followers of other religions.

 

Not quite sure where you were going with the second half of that rant.  Religion is not a major reason scientific advancement is not furthered.  Like I said in an earlier post, science and religion can work together, and the two are not in conflict.

 

Also, you're right, we'd find more to fight over.  Because there will always be extremists.

 

 

 

I suppose, ultimately though, my anger comes from being on the receiving end of these same "caring" Christians who want to "pray for my salvation" or feel the need to tell me I'm going to hell because I'm bisexual. That I'm a bad person who should kill myself because I'm how I am or don't believe in their god. That just because I used to wear all black I was gothic therefore a Satanist and it was okay to say all the cruelest things one can think up. Saying "you'll pray for me" just made me question myself and feel like complete shit. Etc etc. To an extent, I'm walking in similar shoes as this family is now. Different types of hate and judgement, but all from the same source: judgemental Christians.

 

Congrats on swinging both ways.  Nobody cares.  If they do, you shouldn't care how they feel.

 

 

I am sorry I got so far off topic. This just triggered some memories I've long tried to bury, and I let my anger from it get the best of me this time. I am also sorry for offending you and anyone else. I do respect your opinions (and appreciate knocking some sense back into me, reminding me #notallreligions and #notallChristians are the source of the problems that religions as a whole may or may not directly be responsible for). If you're religious then good for you. Do what you need to do. I respect your choice even if I don't agree with yours or anyone else's religion. All I ask, beg is that you and others don't let your religion (whatever it may be) cause you to bring any form of pain (emotional, mental, or physical) to others just because they don't see eye to eye with you. Don't let religion be the see all, be all, do all that some get carried away... (like those who allow their children to die because their religion doesn't allow modern medicine).

I can tell.

 

I want to call out one line in particular that you said, "I respect your choice even if I don't agree with yours or anyone else's religion. All I ask, beg is that you and others don't let your religion (whatever it may be) cause you to bring any form of pain (emotional, mental, or physical) to others just because they don't see eye to eye with you."

 

That holds equally true to nonbelievers as well.  If you want your opinion to be taken seriously, don't take an extreme point of view.  Be reasonable.  Don't act like the massive douchebag you were in that post.

 

Finally, this thread had nothing to do about religion denying modern medicine.  There are very few that do not allow transfusions, but beyond that it's only people with extreme views that would refuse.  It's a religious parable I've heard before, but if you can't draw the relation to modern medicine that's too bad.

[Grimley]

I'm just going to lay this here as another dimension of the discussion (saw the news story shortly ago):  http://www.nbcnews.c...d-dying-n242961

 

In a nutshell: Juvenile Death With Dignity", when the individual is not making the choice themselves. Your thoughts?

[Kaddict]

Also, I read that the majority of medical care costs happen in the last 6 months of life. Allowing Physician-assisted suicide would save on a lot of medical costs. The main thing that worries me are some gray areas. Such as, when should you allow a PAS? If the person is terminal, if they are in severe pain, if they are in a coma? The other problem is that most of the time someone would want/need a PAS, they are not in a state that they can make their own decisions. In this case it would fall upon their power of attorney. I would at that point only be worried if the family just didn't want to rack up a big medical bill, or wanted a life insurance payout. But, if person trusted other person enough to give power of attorney, hopefully they wouldn't be doing it for a money payout.

Sorry, I am off-topic for going back to the original topic? Should I throw something about prayers in here? Ok, many peer reviewed studies show that prayer decreases mortality among the sick with similar conditions. Maybe I should start another debate about abortions just for fun?

[NapisaurusRex]

Also, I read that the majority of medical care costs happen in the last 6 months of life. Allowing Physician-assisted suicide would save on a lot of medical costs. The main thing that worries me are some gray areas. Such as, when should you allow a PAS? If the person is terminal, if they are in severe pain, if they are in a coma? The other problem is that most of the time someone would want/need a PAS, they are not in a state that they can make their own decisions. In this case it would fall upon their power of attorney. I would at that point only be worried if the family just didn't want to rack up a big medical bill, or wanted a life insurance payout. But, if person trusted other person enough to give power of attorney, hopefully they wouldn't be doing it for a money payout.

Sorry, I am off-topic for going back to the original topic? Should I throw something about prayers in here? Ok, many peer reviewed studies show that prayer decreases mortality among the sick with similar conditions. Maybe I should start another debate about abortions just for fun?

And the first part of what you said is what I was leaning toward... I mean, the selfish part of me wants to spend my final days with my kids and stuff, but I don't want them to see me like that, none of us would enjoy it that much, and if it costs me almost $200 just to see a PCP, I can't imagine what it would cost if I had a brain tumor or something crazy like that. Probably more than I'd make in my lifetime. I would be pleased that I taught my family well if I were in a coma and they took me off life support to save money. I'd rather it go to people or causes that would enjoy it and could use it better than I could.