45 replies to this topic

[Bone]

I meant for this to be a sober reflection on the murder of children, not a platform for someone with a fucking League of Legends pseudonym to spew racist garbage.

 

@Kate @Emily @Strategist @Keil please close this topic.

[Adam]

I meant for this to be a sober reflection on the murder of children, not a platform for someone with a fucking League of Legends pseudonym to spew racist garbage.

 

@Kate @Emily @Strategist @Keil please close this topic.

Are you really letting said racist get under your skin that much? I thought you blocked him.

[Lucian]

Are you really that immature that you have to "block" me. Make known publicly that you block me to only unblock me? I don't see where I condemn or demean any ethnicity or race.

[Dazz]

Seriously? Have you been to any of those countries you mentioned and seen things first hand? Do I have to link the video of the Pakistani girl getting stoned by her own family?

 

lol

[Turnip]

Make known publicly that you block me to only unblock me?

 

That probably isn't the case. To be honest the block feature here isn't really the best. It tells you if the person who you blocked has posted and if you want to read their post, and if someone else quotes them then you'll see what they're posting anyways. It doesn't hide their status updates or blog posts either lol

[Lucian]

lol

Serious question though, have you?

[DonValentino]

I meant for this to be a sober reflection on the murder of children, not a platform for someone with a fucking League of Legends pseudonym to spew racist garbage.

 

@Kate @Emily @Strategist @Keil please close this topic.

 

http://en.wikipedia....nyder_v._Phelps

[Mokojiin]

Lol I've been lurking this thread since it was posted, I've really waned to jump in but fuck typing on my phone, I cringed hard as my face would allow when reading your posts Lucian, I knew you were tying a noose your first post lol, although I would hate to assume that the way I read your opinions and interpreted them was the way you actually meant it, but seeing as your later posts didn't really help paint a better picture, let me give you a little advice, it's redicilously illogical and demeaning to lump behaviors and ideas of a few with an entire race......generalzation in general pisses me off in...well...general, but good lord man, do some research, and just understand why these people are offended by your posts, i don't know where I was going with this and I'm hungry so lol dudjdj

[Lucian]

I'm not trying to downplay what happened. But I'm not surprised something like this happened. Terrorist attacks are part of the fucking norm in the middle east. Over 35,000 Pakistani civilians have been killed as a result of suicide bombing. You don't think at least 145 of them were innocent children? I'm not saying Islam promotes violence or everyone in Pakistan are terrorists and they don't care for children. Of course you can't judge their whole country off of the actions of a group of radicals. But death is viewed differently there than it is in most western societies. They still upkeep traditions from thousands of years ago that include things like honor killings. So to answer your second question, @Kate, no you did not read my posts right. Unless any of you have been to Afghan or Iraq don't fucking tell me shit about "states of nature" bullshit. @redlion @Dazz.

Curse you Kate for making me reconsider my ill-thought out points. You ma'am are a scourge to tired students 

I think Lucian at that post misinterpreted other people's reaction as them being shocked by the gruesome facts he stated. However, he used exaggeration (or is completely wrong) when he says this kind of deprecation of human rights is "normal" in Islamic countries. This context has to be considered before making an interpretation. 

 

 

Actually it is normal. I haven't spent a week in Afghan or Iraq where something or someone was being blown up due to terrorism.

[Adam]

I'm not trying to downplay what happened. But I'm not surprised something like this happened. Terrorist attacks are part of the fucking norm in the middle east. Over 35,000 Pakistani civilians have been killed as a result of suicide bombing. You don't think at least 145 of them were innocent children? I'm not saying Islam promotes violence or everyone in Pakistan are terrorists and they don't care for children. Of course you can't judge their whole country off of the actions of a group of radicals. But death is viewed differently there than it is in most western societies. They still upkeep traditions from thousands of years ago that include things like honor killings. So to answer your second question, @Kate, no you did not read my posts right. Unless any of you have been to Afghan or Iraq don't fucking tell me shit about "states of nature" bullshit. @redlion @Dazz.

 

 

Actually it is normal. I haven't spent a week in Afghan or Iraq where something or someone was being blown up due to terrorism.

Just a question here; have you been to Afghanistan or Iraq?

[Lucian]

Did time in the dirt at both places.

[Padme]

I wonder if people believe that Americans value human lives... 

[jinq]

I wonder if people believe that Americans value human lives... 

if they believe American government+big corp propaganda then yes

[Lucian]

Obviously our foreign policies and actions abroad are extremely controversial. But you tell me who the bad guys are here?

Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

[Dazz]

 Of course you can't judge their whole country off of the actions of a group of radicals. 

 

Thank you 

[shrouded]

Pakistan has a history of complete instability starting with the take over by the British East India Company. There have been multiple assassinations, failed elections, genocide, a civil war between east/west Pakistan, wars over Kashmir with India, and military coups.

 

Pakistan's former governments specifically created and supported domestic terrorism as a method of short term gains. They increased availability to weapons and pushed extremists into the tribal areas of the country. These groups aren't just fighting over sectarian bullshit, they're fighting against the Pakistan state in the hopes of gaining more control over the government.  ISI and the CIA armed extremists for their own purposes and now it is backfiring in a country with one of the largest military forces, one of the largest and fastest growing economies, and some of the few nuclear arms in the world. This isn't a new problem. 

[Lucian]

A part of what I was trying to convey.^^ Sad that this happened. Not surprised that this happened.

[redlion]

I understand what you're saying but they do still hold medieval practices like honor killings. Their history is full of blood shed and that's the way it's been for thousands of years.

Two things are wrong here. One is to distinguish between Afghani or Pakistani or Islamic history and our own. History is history and it belongs to everybody. So if you're claiming that their history is full of bloodshed, I'd have to counter with "so is ours."

Second, honor killings aren't the norm. Stonings aren't the norm. You're simply wrong. Had it occurred to you that a military or civilian service person, like yourself, might only need to be stationed in the most violent places? What use is a US military presence in the areas that are already pacified?

I'm not trying to discredit your reportings of your time there - to right, you probably did see violence in excess of what you've come to expect from living in the West. Part of that unexpected violence could come from their cultural views about the value of life, I'll concede, but another more demanding part comes from the situation in which you (and your government) entered into those nations. War generates violence. If that isn't a fact, I don't know what is.
 

I did not say their country's culture is incapable of evolving or changing just that it hasn't changed for thousands of years. Sure they may use bombs and AK-47s instead of swords and swords and slings but they're still doing the same thing. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

And in your explanation of your point, you accept that these people have necessarily changed. They use AKs - you admit it. That's a change, however small. We can go on listing the ways in which they are the same, or the ways in which they have changed, but the reality is that it's somewhere in between.

Sure, they may continue ethnic conflicts from previous centuries, but they can also contribute to the lives of citizens of the world, eg The Kite Runner, which was at the top of the NYT bestsellers list for over two years, and was written by an Afghani emigre.

They are not, in other words, "doing the same thing" on the whole.
 

You say I'm taking an ethnocentric view and say "there is no normal state of affairs" but there is. It's not normal to blow up a school full of innocent children in any culture or country.

Normal actually has a definition you know. Like a bell curve? The normal distribution? It's science bro. Humans by our very nature disrupt normalcy; we all want to be outliers. I do not accept your blind assertion that there is a normal state of affairs. If you would posit such a thing, I believe the onus is on you to provide proof of your assertion.

"We do not exist in a state of nature" but the middle east is pretty close to it and has been in turmoil before "state of nature" was even a concept.

It is commendable to look to history for an understanding of current events. But if you're looking at 3500 years of habitation in Afghanistan and only seeing violence, I would submit that you are willfully blinding yourself to the other aspects of civilization besides war.

BTW, the term "state of nature" doesn't predate islam or the middle east, as you say, but it's useful in the context of this discussion because you're attempting to say that there is no rule of law in the middle east. A state of nature is like going back to neanderthal times; pre-society humans, before we had organized ourselves beyond kin groups. Islam may not live up to your expectations for moral guidance, but it clearly has laws and organizational structures that show your comparison to be superficial.
 

But death is viewed differently there than it is in most western societies. They still upkeep traditions from thousands of years ago that include things like honor killings. So to answer your second question, @Kate, no you did not read my posts right. Unless any of you have been to Afghan or Iraq don't fucking tell me shit about "states of nature" bullshit. @redlion @Dazz.

Ah, so now we need to have personally been somewhere and seen what you've seen to be able to understand what you're saying.

To be frank, that seems like a communication problem on your end, not on ours.