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What would you do?


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#1 volycz

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 04:22 AM

A being, who you believe to have superior predictive powers (say God or some super intelligent computer), makes you an offer. Before you are two boxes, identical in appearance. Within one box, let us call it 'Box A', there is either one million dollars or nothing. Within the other box, 'Box B', there is definitely one thousand dollars.

The being, whom in deference to tradition we will call the Newcomb Being, will allow you to either take both boxes, or just Box A.

Twenty-four hours ago, the Newcomb being made a prediction about what you would choose. At this point, it placed the money in the boxes. If the Newcomb Being predicted that you would take both boxes, it left nothing for you in Box A and the $1000 in Box B. If the Newcomb Being predicted that you would only take Box A, it would leave the million dollars in it, as well as the thousand dollars in Box B. If the being predicts you will base your choice on a random event (like flipping a coin), it will leave Box A empty.

Now you have grounds to believe that in such matters, the Newcomb Being is always 100% correct in predicting your actions.

Will you pick (a) both boxes or (b) Just Box A


This is the problem known as the Newcomb paradox.

Argument (I) - 'Two boxer' argument
Some people are dead sure that the best choice is to pick both boxes. According to them, no matter what choice you make now, it cannot change the contents of what is in the box A now (Remember The entity filled the contents of the boxes BEFORE you made the choice). Since you can't change what is in the box A, you might as well take both boxes to maximise your gains.

Argument (II) - 'One boxer' argument.

Others argue that the rational choice is to pick just Box A and win the million. They argue, that because the entity knows you will argue as in argument (I) above and pick both boxes, he will put nothing in the Box A because he can predict your reactions with 100% accuracy. So picking both boxes will get you only 1,000.

So you should just choose to take box A and win the million.

They also argue that if you carry out the experiment, those who choose only Box A always win the million and those who choose both, get only 1,000. So obviously the best choice is to pick box A only.

Who is right? What would you do?

PS : One variation of the problem, says that instead of the Newcomb Being being 100% accurate in prediction it is only 95% accurate. It does not really change the problem, since the expected gain of picking only Box A (=95%*1,000,000 + 5%*0) is still higher if you go for the 'one boxer' argument (=95%*1,000 + 5%*(1,000+1,000,000).

PSS : No one knows what the right answer is, both arguments seem to be equally rational, but they can't be both right! it is interesting to see what your intuitions tell you.

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    #2 pyke

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    Posted 17 May 2006 - 04:27 AM

    Neither is truly correct, because you are unable to understand the thinking process of this "entity". Perhaps it expects you to choose box A only and punishes you for not being assertive enough for trying to maximize the potential of the situation?!

    #3 Eeyore

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    Posted 17 May 2006 - 04:38 AM

    Okay, the thoughts and arguements and all the rest of that were far too confusing for me really :p, but I'd just take both and have the $1000, perfectly happy with that ta ^-^.

    #4 haku_jin

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    Posted 17 May 2006 - 07:09 AM

    In a sense I agree with pyke. The problem I see with the argument is that the entity is obviously intelligent enough to know what you will choose already, so it would be pointless to choose either one.

    #5 Cataliste

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    Posted 17 May 2006 - 07:21 AM

    I am taking box A. Call me a gambling man! I want my ends, and 1k is not going to cut it...

    #6 Brad

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    Posted 17 May 2006 - 07:27 AM

    I'm going to start playing around with wires until the computer tells me where all his money is hidden.

    #7 Cataliste

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    Posted 17 May 2006 - 07:30 AM

    Brad has a good idea. I am going to use Brad's idea now!

    #8 Punk

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    Posted 17 May 2006 - 12:13 PM

    I would take A. I wouldnet be satisfied with 1k...

    #9 Christopher Robin

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    Posted 17 May 2006 - 12:41 PM

    If I didn't get confused by your babbling, I would've picked box A, because... it's worth the chance of 1 mill instead of a positive 1000. Assuming you only choose one.

    #10 volycz

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    Posted 17 May 2006 - 11:57 PM

    If I didn't get confused by your babbling, I would've picked box A, because... it's worth the chance of 1 mill instead of a positive 1000. Assuming you only choose one.

    confusing is good :p..

    (1) 100% prediction requires 'supernatural'.

    For a plausible scientific way for a being to be 100% accurate see http://www.greylabyr...le_id=puzzle014

    Also as stated the problem does not go away if the being is only 95% correct.

    (2) You do not trust the being is 100% perfect.

    Say you carry out the trial experiment a thousand times, it's a trial experiment, so you don't get the money, but basically in all 1000 trials the being manages to guess correctly.

    The problem cannot be solved by assuming that Person A chooses two boxes because he doesn't believe in the entity and person B chooses one box because he believes in the entity. or that one person is willing to take more chances than the others, or .....

    You have to assume everyone believes the exact same thing, have the same risk appetites and be in generally the exact same epistemologic state or the problem becomes unsoluable.

    If I could specify any old belief.....

    E.g I could postulate Person C believes that the entity will kill him if he makes either choice so he decides not to play or some other nonsense like that.

    The problem becomes trivial if you assume everyone believes something different.

    #11 Warlord

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    Posted 18 May 2006 - 12:11 AM

    if this is god then he'll know i'm picking box A so bleh :p

    #12 Rush

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    Posted 18 May 2006 - 02:22 AM

    it so confusing..but since we know if we choose box A, the one million will be there..so ill just choose box A ^_^

    #13 Freddy

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    Posted 18 May 2006 - 02:23 AM

    1,000 $$$ is easy. I can get it in a week if i try REALLY hard. Do I want that? No, I want the best always, I go for the best and I am really assertive in doing the things I want or need. 1 mil is enough for me. Count me in choosing box B if he is 100% correct. 95% I choose box A.

    Just think, 5% of box a is 50,000! 50 times what I would get in box B. :)

    #14 Frizzle

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    Posted 18 May 2006 - 04:58 AM

    I'd kick Newcomb in the nutsack and take the million and thousand dollars.


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