96 replies to this topic

[Martin]

yeah, it's all a big put on to hide the fact that we really have too much fun chopping down trees and building igloos.

Bet you have those big plasma TV's in that igloo!

OK here is my view. Saddam was a horrible person who tortured and killed hundreds of people. Unfortunately after he was captured and sentenced all of his crazy supporters are blowing up people. I think its all STUPID! At this point the US could leave and let the Iraqies kill themselves for all I care. I don't think American troops should be stuck in the middle of all of this. In fact if you think logically here, Saddam was better off in power. Yes he could have been making WMD (yea right) but hey who isnt? Iran, North Korea, China, Russia, US, ect. If there is a nuclear war we will all be dead! If Saddam was still in power, he would kill a few dozen people instead of the thousands of citizens that are dying today. It blows my mind how killing your own people will solve everything.

Edited by Martin, 30 December 2006 - 02:18 AM.

[Noitidart]

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ is a source i dunno how trusty for direct deaths of the latest war. We have to count how the infrastructure was totally wiped out. And the sick. It is crazy. So direct you got 60k then indirect you got oh my gosh its crazy go look that up. By far the most ever since people have been on the verge of death for years and the US just went in and finished them off.

Think about the embargo the US placed on Iraq for years. They couldn't get medicine for ever. People have been dying and dying.

Think about the gulf war. Find a direct body count for that. Then think about the indirect. We've been killing Iraqis for years, I see no one trying to go for trial of US leaders who do this. But I see people hating on something that doesn't affect them at all... why? Why are the American people soooo concerned with this.

Personally I think it's a distraction. The US lately is just so much of a screw up. Afghanstan is totally ruined. Israel continues to have its way. UN is jack shit now. What happend to NATO

[Greeny]

Yer noits right. And I have this ps2 game, conflict: desert storm 2, and its about 4 people (who you command) who go around in kuiat stopping the iraqis from invading etc. Its a really good game.

[Alex]

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ is a source i dunno how trusty for direct deaths of the latest war. We have to count how the infrastructure was totally wiped out. And the sick. It is crazy. So direct you got 60k then indirect you got oh my gosh its crazy go look that up. By far the most ever since people have been on the verge of death for years and the US just went in and finished them off.

Think about the embargo the US placed on Iraq for years. They couldn't get medicine for ever. People have been dying and dying.

Think about the gulf war. Find a direct body count for that. Then think about the indirect. We've been killing Iraqis for years, I see no one trying to go for trial of US leaders who do this. But I see people hating on something that doesn't affect them at all... why? Why are the American people soooo concerned with this.

Personally I think it's a distraction. The US lately is just so much of a screw up. Afghanstan is totally ruined. Israel continues to have its way. UN is jack shit now. What happend to NATO

An embargo on Iraq does not mean we killed people. Indirects don't count Noit. And in the 1st gulf war, most of the civilian casualties were caused by the Iraqi army. We drove them out of Kuwait remember?I'd like to see the source for 600,000. I heard that number somewhere and blindly used it a few times since everyone was saying it, but after some research I've come to agree it was what www.iraqbodycount.net claims it to be.

We haven't been killing Iraqi civilians Noit, at least not on purpose. He did it on purpose. He had a second trial for genocide, thats voluntary manslaughter, which did not complete because he was hanged for the trial of the 100 something people first.

He actually urged Iraqis not to resist the US forces before he died(I've read).

http://www.jhsph.edu..._iraq_2006.html
That number comes from here, and it even says these deaths are NOT from Coalition forces only. The deaths counted are total deaths, violent and non-violent. And it even involves the insurgents.

[Noitidart]

An embargo on Iraq does not mean we killed people. Indirects don't count Noit. And in the 1st gulf war, most of the civilian casualties were caused by the Iraqi army. We drove them out of Kuwait remember?I'd like to see the source for 600,000. I heard that number somewhere and blindly used it a few times since everyone was saying it, but after some research I've come to agree it was what www.iraqbodycount.net claims it to be.

We haven't been killing Iraqi civilians Noit, at least not on purpose. He did it on purpose. He had a second trial for genocide, thats voluntary manslaughter, which did not complete because he was hanged for the trial of the 100 something people first.

He actually urged Iraqis not to resist the US forces before he died(I've read).

http://www.jhsph.edu..._iraq_2006.html
That number comes from here, and it even says these deaths are NOT from Coalition forces only. The deaths counted are total deaths, violent and non-violent. And it even involves the insurgents.

An embargo doesn't kill? Indirect doesn't count? This is total rubbish.

First of all a number like 60k or even 57k should be enough to tell you something is wrong. When Saddam was put on trial apparently for 140? Preemptive strike for WMD and they had no evidence of WMD. Even if they did what would Saddam do attack Iran why the heck would US care they want to attack Iran as well. Ignore that. Continuing the onslaught even after they know no WMD is a reason to put someone on trial. Bush didn't get congress support on the Iraq war did he?

Lets get back to the embargo doesn't kill and indirect doesn't count..........

Alex let's lock you up in your house and lets say you got something mild lets say the flu, and I make sure no medicine can come in. What's gonna happen flu gets worse, you dont have the vaccine either. You die. Who's responsible. You answer me that and then I'll reply to the rest of your topic. Im real taken back by your first sentences as they are just so soo what should say unrealistic.

[Greeny]

Im not ripping america off or anything, but it seams like a corupt place with bush and all. i really didnt care, but then i saw michael moore's documentary

[Noitidart]

Yer noits right. And I have this ps2 game, conflict: desert storm 2, and its about 4 people (who you command) who go around in kuiat stopping the iraqis from invading etc. Its a really good game.

Yea thanks greeny for the support I dunno how trusty moores documentary is he's anti bush. Im trying to look for an answer. Why the heck so much focus on Iraq when it doesn't affect us at all. Is the US corrupt? Has it lost all roots on which it was found? US's blind support for Israel via many methods and not caring what the Arabs feel about America for that support , preemptive strikes, US's instigation in treaties (we can have nukes but not you), US trying to police the world, its crazy. We have to think rather then just look at the media be distracted and go "Oh my gosh a person that doesn't even affect me I hate him so much". We're being distracted everyone. But from what? There definitely definitely is something its just so obvious its a distraction.

[Alex]

An embargo doesn't kill? Indirect doesn't count? This is total rubbish.

First of all a number like 60k or even 57k should be enough to tell you something is wrong. When Saddam was put on trial apparently for 140? Preemptive strike for WMD and they had no evidence of WMD. Even if they did what would Saddam do attack Iran why the heck would US care they want to attack Iran as well. Ignore that. Continuing the onslaught even after they know no WMD is a reason to put someone on trial. Bush didn't get congress support on the Iraq war did he?

Lets get back to the embargo doesn't kill and indirect doesn't count..........

Alex let's lock you up in your house and lets say you got something mild lets say the flu, and I make sure no medicine can come in. What's gonna happen flu gets worse, you dont have the vaccine either. You die. Who's responsible. You answer me that and then I'll reply to the rest of your topic. Im real taken back by your first sentences as they are just so soo what should say unrealistic. Indirect doesn't count...

1)
Embargo was punishment for invading Kuwait Noit. And the embargo did not include medical supplies; straight from the UN which issued the embargo of 1990 against Iraq:

Resolution 661 (1990) of 6 August 1990 imposed economic sanctions on Iraq, including a full trade embargo barring all imports from and exports to Iraq, excepting only medical supplies, foodstuffs, and other items of humanitarian need, as determined by the Security Council sanctions committee, which was also established by Resolution 661. The sanctions committee is chaired by the Ambassador of Ghana, with the delegations of Congo and Denmark providing vice chairmen. (Note: All 15 Council Members sit on the sanctions committee).

http://www.un.org/News/ossg/iraq.htm
They even allowed Iraq to start selling Oil again after 1 year.

2)60,000 does not mean 60,000 were killed by misguided bombs or something. Suicide bombers have killed far more.

The count includes civilian deaths caused by coalition military action and by military or paramilitary responses to the coalition presence (e.g. insurgent and terrorist attacks).

3)It is not an "onslaught".

Keep in mind I'm a liberal democrat so I'm playing devil's advocate.

Yes the US is corrupt, we have been for the last 100 years, if not since the start. Every country is corrupt. America has never been the "dreamland". People just learn the history with the bad parts left out and think the US has changed. And yes Saddam was not a good man, he deserved to be hanged, he commited genocide. Would I like some US government officials to go on trial? Definetly. Is this a perfect world? Definetly not.

[Greeny]

I had to learn about the sanctions on iraq. It hink they only let them sell it in exchange for medical stuff, because it lead to heaps of poverty

[Gen]

If you go see from the right way Bush wanted the petroleum from Iraq, so In my opinion, by killing Saddam he'll get all the oil for him, don't?
I don't got a source, just thinking o.ô
So if im not wrong bush killed a lot Iraqs with he's finger or mouth...Just said some words and like magic, Iraq was gone...

[Noitidart]

1)
Embargo was punishment for invading Kuwait Noit. And the embargo did not include medical supplies; straight from the UN which issued the embargo of 1990 against Iraq:
http://www.un.org/News/ossg/iraq.htm
They even allowed Iraq to start selling Oil again after 1 year.

2)60,000 does not mean 60,000 were killed by misguided bombs or something. Suicide bombers have killed far more.

3)It is not an "onslaught".

Keep in mind I'm a liberal democrat so I'm playing devil's advocate.

Yes the US is corrupt, we have been for the last 100 years, if not since the start. Every country is corrupt. America has never been the "dreamland". People just learn the history with the bad parts left out and think the US has changed. And yes Saddam was not a good man, he deserved to be hanged, he commited genocide. Would I like some US government officials to go on trial? Definetly. Is this a perfect world? Definetly not.

1) The embargoes didn't include medical supplies. Then how come no one helped enough? Every country stayed away why? Because threats. How come so many people fell to diseases. And have been dying for 10 years.
2) It doesn't matter how they were killed they died because of us.
3) Killing for 10 years caused by you then to go back after 10 years and kill them is an onslaught. You continue to look at 60k which is just direct deaths. Who created those suicde bombers Alex? If the US was never there there would never have been the Iraq/Iran war where how many died? A whollle lot. If the US wasn't there there would never have been a sunni/shia conflict.

You keep saying 60k I dont know why you refuse to belive more but lets go with 60k... isn't 1 enough? Now how come no leader in the US is brought to trial especially Bush how come when he invaded Iraq preemptively and the preemptive strike came out to be for no reason, the reason was WMD.

We've been focusing on Saddam but why? Its a distraction from the faults of US?

[Christopher Robin]

Green or whatever, they won't message you about bombs at ebay...



and the 600000 iraqi people dying? How many of them ARE there? Cause I'm sure that'd be a pretty big chunk gone... the 60k seems more reasonable


Well, he's dead, personally I think we should have tied him up and let some people at him for a while...

[cooldude]

But doesn't this make the iraqi people sad or something. I watched michael morres documentary, and they filmed the people before and after the invasion/war. They were happy, and didnt mind him. And now everything is blown up, and people have lost there family etc. etc.

Michael Morre is so far left wing its not even funny he is like the democratic version of rush limbagh. I am sure that film was very biased. Because i have seen one of his other films Bowling for Columbine and it was pretty damn biased.

[Silk]

The only thing I oppose is the fact that he was hung on an important day for Muslims everywhere: Eid. Such as day shouldn't be stained with such an event, should've put it off 'till the new year. That way, there's more significance in that it's a 'fresh start'.

[Tweek]

Anyone got a video of the Hanging?

Sorry if I sound a bit sick.

[Alex]

1) The embargoes didn't include medical supplies. Then how come no one helped enough? Every country stayed away why? Because threats. How come so many people fell to diseases. And have been dying for 10 years.
2) It doesn't matter how they were killed they died because of us.
3) Killing for 10 years caused by you then to go back after 10 years and kill them is an onslaught. You continue to look at 60k which is just direct deaths. Who created those suicde bombers Alex? If the US was never there there would never have been the Iraq/Iran war where how many died? A whollle lot. If the US wasn't there there would never have been a sunni/shia conflict.

You keep saying 60k I dont know why you refuse to belive more but lets go with 60k... isn't 1 enough? Now how come no leader in the US is brought to trial especially Bush how come when he invaded Iraq preemptively and the preemptive strike came out to be for no reason, the reason was WMD.

We've been focusing on Saddam but why? Its a distraction from the faults of US?

"It doesn't matter how they were killed they died because of us?" So basically if a terrorist bomber blows up a restaraunt in Iraq, it's our fault?
Terrorist attacks are not our fault Noit. The insurgents kill their own people, we don't tell them to do that.
Who created those suicide bombers? How about MUSLIM EXTREMISTS. You're saying because we invaded Iraq those people suddenly just decided to become suicide bombers and murder their own people? Sunnis and Shi'ite were divided even before Saddam was in power Noit. Way before even the 1st gulf war. You're welcome to google that if you dont believe me.

Stop going off-topic. I already agreed that the government is not without corruption, we're debating the 600,000 number not the morality of our government.
I gave you a link and disproved everything you said, and yet you still cling. You havent given me any sources.

[Frizzle]

The only thing I oppose is the fact that he was hung on an important day for Muslims everywhere: Eid. Such as day shouldn't be stained with such an event, should've put it off 'till the new year. That way, there's more significance in that it's a 'fresh start'.

Acutally he was hung just before Eid apparently, and his two henchmen (half/step brother or something) and some other guy are gonna be hung after Eid.

Anyone got a video of the Hanging?

Sorry if I sound a bit sick.

http://zomgstuff.com...read.php?t=3158

No prizes for guessing it's not safe for work. (Or if you live in Iraq).

[slypher]

I'm a big fan of ironic punishment. Certainly we could have been more creative than a simple execution.

Also, the death penalty is bullshit.

Let's kill someone because we think they need to die, but we don't call ourselves murderers? That makes no sense.

[Greeny]

Michael Morre is so far left wing its not even funny he is like the democratic version of rush limbagh. I am sure that film was very biased. Because i have seen one of his other films Bowling for Columbine and it was pretty damn biased.

Yeh lol, he is. but he has done some good, like when he got walmart to stop selling guns. He my be biased, but there is some evidence there, and he sorta in my opinion cheated into office.

[Josh21227]

Full video of him being hung:

[Tweek]

It's gross,You can see the rope burn on his neck after he's dead.
the people that leaked the video from the recording on their modible have all been "dealth with".

[414de7fe6]

1) The embargoes didn't include medical supplies. Then how come no one helped enough? Every country stayed away why? Because threats. How come so many people fell to diseases. And have been dying for 10 years.
2) It doesn't matter how they were killed they died because of us.
3) Killing for 10 years caused by you then to go back after 10 years and kill them is an onslaught. You continue to look at 60k which is just direct deaths. Who created those suicde bombers Alex? If the US was never there there would never have been the Iraq/Iran war where how many died? A whollle lot. If the US wasn't there there would never have been a sunni/shia conflict.

You keep saying 60k I dont know why you refuse to belive more but lets go with 60k... isn't 1 enough? Now how come no leader in the US is brought to trial especially Bush how come when he invaded Iraq preemptively and the preemptive strike came out to be for no reason, the reason was WMD.

We've been focusing on Saddam but why? Its a distraction from the faults of US?

1) Because the damn leader of the country neglected medical infrastructure and didn't care about his people.

2) No, they didn't die because of you. They chose to blow themselves up. You, nor the US, or any government sanctioned body had any role in making these people blow themselves up. It's their own problem. Leave it, you can't do a damn thing about it.

3) Terrorist groups create suicide bombers. If the US had never gone in there, the place would have broken into civil war or been invaded. The US, having the power it does, took steps to ensure a primary distributor resource vital to the world's economy would not be destroyed.

The US has millions of faults. Every country does. Every single state of every single country. Know what the problem is? The damn people. You and I.

Leave Israel out of this. They had nothing to do with Saddam at all.